# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 157
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2024, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3255 "2024-01-14T14:21:33Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > say you see evidence of genocide I said no such thing. > [@Babale](#): > > Well, that’s not precisely what happened. Take it up with him, because that’s what he told The Guardian happened. > [@Babale](#): > > Yes, but I speak with people who are there on a daily basis Nevertheless, you are not on the ground there. That means you’re getting a filtered view. > [@Babale](#): > > watch multiple local news sources Haaretz is the only Israeli one I read. > [@Babale](#): > > No, but it’s also no Tel Avivian bastion of progressivism. I’m sure Yael Ayalon doesn’t agree… > [@Babale](#): > > He was fired in 2020 for posts that encouraged people to refuse to serve in the IDF Again, that’s just social media posts, not activism. I see nothing about him being a member of any activist orgs. > [@Babale](#): > > I mean, you can look at the polls and see what support for the representatives of hardliner settlers who make genocidal statements is. I prefer looking at actions rather than words. And the actions _here_ were to first fire him, then (later) lock him up, and only _then_ release him (with a treason charge still hanging over him, it seems). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2024, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3256 "2024-01-14T14:40:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > say you see evidence of genocide > > I said no such thing. Then your posts are not the ones that gave me the feeling I was talking about there, are they? With that being the case, perhaps I shouldn’t have brought it up to begin with. Mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2024, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3257 "2024-01-14T14:48:33Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Then your posts are not the ones that gave me the feeling I was talking about there, are they? Then your replying directly to me was a _non sequitur_, was it? You want to make a point about people posting about genocide, take it up with them, don’t use replies to me to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3258 "2024-01-14T14:52:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Then your replying directly to me was a _non sequitur_, was it? You want to make a point about people posting about genocide, take it up with them, don’t use replies to me to do it That is a fair and valid criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2024, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3259 "2024-01-14T15:12:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Then your replying directly to me was a _non sequitur_, was it? You want to make a point about people posting about genocide, take it up with them, don’t use replies to me to do it I’m not gonna argue with you that the right wing (and especially the religious zealots) _hasn’t_ gotten its claws far too deeply into Israeli society, and that’s true to a greater or lesser extent at every level, in every part of the country, at every institution. The point I have been making is that thanks to the very difficult work done by the Israeli left (and in recent times when the right has been especially brazen, by the Israeli center as well), work that continues to be done every day, the far right has _not_ gotten to the point where the Ben Gvirs and the Smotriches can have their way with Gaza. That doesn’t mean the far right can’t cause serious damage on a daily basis. It can, and it does. And even the rhetoric is damaging - when these people had _no_ parliamentary power whatsoever\*, this sort of rhetoric _got a prime minister killed_. In the post that started all this, you said: > [@MrDibble](#): > > Tell me more about how the hardliners are just outliers and the Israeli military isn’t run by them… I took that as basically saying “The far right controls the military which means that they are capable of leading it in genociding the Gazans in preparation for annexation”, and that’s what I have been arguing against. If the point you were making was closer to “far from being a marginal force, the far right in Israel does wield influence, which it uses to do serious damage” - then I agree. The far right causes _enormouse_ damage. It has now come out that on Oct 7, _100_ soldiers from the Gaza border were moved to the West Bank to deal with a flashpoint. What was the issue? _A piece of shit settler built a sukkah in Huwara_, a Palestinian town in the West Bank. That is just one of _dozens_ of ways in which bad right wing policy is _directly responsible_ for the disaster of Oct 7. If cancerous settler ideology had not infested the army, a handful of soldiers would have been sufficient to arrest the settlers and take them to a sukkah in Israeli prison. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2024, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3260 "2024-01-14T16:04:43Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If the point you were making was closer to “far from being a marginal force, the far right in Israel does wield influence, which it uses to do serious damage” - then I agree. Well, then we can leave it at that. “Run by them” was hyperbole on my part, so we both are at fault here, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2024, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3261 "2024-01-14T16:12:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, then we can leave it at that. “Run by them” was hyperbole on my part, so we both are at fault here, I think I appreciate that. Look, we settled our differences through thoughtful discussion! At this rate we should have the whole conflict worked our by next weekend. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3262 "2024-01-19T12:42:08Z")
So today I see that Netanyahu is outright rejecting a Palestinian state. > **[Netanyahu vows no Palestinian state, attacks Israeli media, denies...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-vows-no-palestinian-state-attacks-israeli-media-denies-blindsiding-gallant/)** > > In rebuke of the US, PM declares Israel must maintain security control over West Bank and Gaza; says Israel will know soon if medicines sent into Gaza have reached hostages "Whoever is talking about the ‘day after Netanyahu’,” he said, “is essentially talking about the establishment of a Palestinian state with the Palestinian Authority Most Israeli citizens are opposed to the establishment of a Palestinian state, he said, and he would always resist it. All territory we evacuate, we get terror, terrible terror against us,” he said, citing Gaza, southern Lebanon and parts of Judea and Samaria (the West Bank). Therefore, “in any future arrangement, or in the absence of an arrangement,” he said, Israel must maintain “security control” of all territory west of the Jordan River — meaning, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. “That is a vital condition" So a Palestinian state is off the table. A single state, unless literally an Apartheid one is off the table (my words, but I’m pretty sure that’s fair). Do other options even exist? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3263 "2024-01-19T13:14:11Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > So a Palestinian state is off the table. A single state, unless literally an Apartheid one is off the table (my words, but I’m pretty sure that’s fair). Do other options even exist? Yes - Bibi coming off the table. Netanyahu doesn’t want to talk about “the day after Netanyahu” or even acknowledge that such a glorious day might ever come about? Good golly, I am _shocked!_ I’m not going to treat Netanyahu opposing a two state solution any more seriously than I treat Netanyahu supporting a two state solution. He does both, depending on what is convinient in the situation he is currently in and who he is talking to. Here’s a tip. Whether Netanyahu tells you exactly what you want to hear, or whether he tells you exactly what you are afraid of - he is full of shit. He is not for a two state solution; he is not against a two state solution; he holds no real policy positions whatsoever (which is why he can flip flop between building coalitions with far right religious groups or centrists depending on how the wind blows). ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3264 "2024-01-19T13:35:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Here’s a tip. Whether Netanyahu tells you exactly what you want to hear, or whether he tells you exactly what you are afraid of - he is full of shit. Another tip: when someone tells you they are a fascist, believe them. Believe them the first time. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3265 "2024-01-19T13:35:57Z")
So, what’s the plan for getting rid of Netayahu? And in the mean time, how can you prevent him from making sure the war keeps going and stays “hot” (as distinct from a cold war.)? ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3266 "2024-01-19T13:50:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Netanyahu doesn’t want to talk about “the day after Netanyahu” or even acknowledge that such a glorious day might ever come about? Good golly, I am _shocked!_ I get the need to dismiss Bibi. I feel exactly the same about Trump. But like Trump, Bibi is there and so far doesn’t seem to be going anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3267 "2024-01-19T14:02:28Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Another tip: when someone tells you they are a fascist, believe them. Believe them the first time. I don’t know of a time when Netanyahu told people “hey everyone, I am a fascist”. He did _show_ his fascism, specifically when he tried to destroy Israel’s court system to keep himself in power and out of prison. And when he propped up obvious fascists like Ben Gvir or Smotrich once it was clear he was going to lose the center. Which is why Israel erupted into massive protests against these actions (and why they ultimately failed). > [@puzzlegal](#): > > So, what’s the plan for getting rid of Netayahu? Without elections, Benny Gantz could remove Bibi at literally any time. Today’s Likud members are, to a man, spineless toadies, handpicked by Netanyahu based on two criteria and two criteria only: 1. How well do they kiss Netanyahu’s ass? 2. How likely are they to be a threat to Netanyahu’s ambitions in the future? So those toadies are a lock for Netanyahu. And everyone knows that Ben Gvir and Smotrich’s far right nationalist parties are also created for the sole purpose of propping up Bibi. But literally everyone else - even Shas - should be easy enough for Gantz to turn when the moment is right. So option 1, Benny Gantz leaves the Unity government and forms a new Unity government. Option 2 is elections. Likud is projected to get absolutely slaughtered. So are the far right nationalist parties. Again, this most likely puts Gantz in power. Getting rid of Bibi isn’t the problem. The problem, ironically enough, is the plan for the day after Bibi. Israel’s political center has rallied around Benny Gantz, a man who had stood up tall and proclaimed, lously and proudly, “I am not Bibi Netanyahu”. And that’s _great_! I’m really glad you aren’t Bibi Netanyahu. We all need more people who aren’t Bibi in our lives. But where does Gantz actually stand on the important issues facing our country? Not with Bibi, that’s about all we know. So the Center doesn’t really have a cohesive message beyond “we are not Bibi”, and maybe that’s even on purpose - they don’t want to turn off anti-Bibi voters who disagree on other issues, maybe. Whatever. The Israeli Left has a similar issue. Basically, a bunch of infighting and lack of leadership or a unified message has really weakened parties like Labor. My sense is, they are starting to turn this around (at a certain point, your party gets so few ministers into office that it becomes difficult to keep infighting, eh? 🤣) but I think they really need to rally and capitalize on Netanyahu’s “only I can prevent terrorism” lies being exposed. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3268 "2024-01-19T14:10:12Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And in the mean time, how can you prevent him from making sure the war keeps going and stays “hot” (as distinct from a cold war.)? Well, that’s precisely Gantz’s job right now, isn’t it? He is getting the same info from the IDF that Bibi is, and is there when Bibi delivers whatever instructions he delivers to the IDF (and he has input on what those instructions are, too). Remember, Netanyahu is not “Commander in Chief” of the Armed Forces. That’s not how the IDF or the Israeli prime ministership _work_. If he ever gets the sense that Bibi is having the IDF do things that are not about destroying Hamas or protecting Israel, but are about prolonging the war and securing Bibi’s position - it is his job - scratch that, his _duty as an elected official and his responsibility as an Israeli_ - to leave the Unity Government, denounce Bibi from the rooftops, and either take over the government or, if he is unable to rally the support he needs to do this, to topple the government and call for an election. Anything short of this would be a monumental failure on Gantz’s part. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3269 "2024-01-19T14:14:25Z")
In that case, let us help you. Since Bibi has told Biden to stuff it, I am all in favor of the US telling Israel that there is no more aid, and no more carrier off the coast until there is a change in policy and/or a change in government. You and others here keep on saying that Bibi and a small group of hardliners are the problem. Let’s fix that problem right now. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3270 "2024-01-19T14:18:37Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Israel must maintain “security control” of all territory west of the Jordan River Needs a catchier slogan. “From the Med to the Dead…” No, no, that’s not it, I’m sure something will come to me… ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3271 "2024-01-19T14:22:50Z")
It’s funny, because when I read that I thought “boy, that sounds a lot like…” Just because we must all repeat this affirmation every 12th post: I completely support Israel’s right to defend itself and go after Hamas, That said, I really think this ends badly for Israel. I’ve watched a number of my friends turn much more… sour on the subject of non-Jews, Gaza, and the West Bank. I understand the seething anger. I saw it here in 2001. But my luxury of distance means I also see what’s happening with clear eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3272 "2024-01-19T14:33:32Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > In that case, let us help you. Since Bibi has told Biden to stuff it, I am all in favor of the US telling Israel that there is no more aid, and no more carrier off the coast until there is a change in policy and/or a change in government. That’s up to you. Look, the $2-3 billion the US provides Israel in aid is not existential. Israel’s defence budget is like $25 billion. So if your goal here is to say “we are cutting off aid! You cannot exist without us and will have no choice but to do what we say!” - then you are _vastly_ overestimating how important that US aid is. Keep in mind that the aid also comes in the form of what are essentially vouchers for use purchasing from American military manufacturers. So really, you’d be cutting a $2 billion subsidy to the Military-Industrial complex. Maybe that’s something you think the US already spends too much on, in which case, great! But just recognize that this is the main impact of cutting aid. Now, would it be effective? We have already established that it isn’t an _existential_ matter, but it is still a significant chunk of change. Would cutting it put pressure on Israel to do whatever you said? Or, would it smash up one of the levers you _do_ have for influencing Israeli action, and lead Israel to disregard American suggestions even more? As far as removing the American carrier - now hold on, are you counting the Red Sea operations too? Because I’m pretty sure America is acting to protect Red Sea shipping mostly for American interests, not Israeli ones. Is America just gonna accept 20% higher shipping costs as everyone routes around Africa in order to spite Israel? But fine, the Mediterranean ships. So you withdraw them and one of two things happens: 1. nothing 2. Hezbollah is emboldened by this and opens a second front from Lebanon, leading to a bunch of initial damage and casualties on the Israeli side followed by lots and lots and lots of damage and casualties in Lebanon. How exactly does either scenario serve American interests? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3273 "2024-01-19T14:34:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Needs a catchier slogan. “From the Med to the Dead…” No, no, that’s not it, I’m sure something will come to me… Anyone who opposes a two state solution is an enemy of peace. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2024, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3274 "2024-01-19T14:34:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Remember, Netanyahu is not “Commander in Chief” of the Armed Forces. That’s not how the IDF or the Israeli prime ministership _work_. That’s not required. Netanyahu and the military industrial complex have similar goals and will work in unision to keep each other in power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=156) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=158)