# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 159
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3295 "2024-01-22T22:16:10Z")
Let me try to clarify what I meant with an example from recent history. For generations, people said that there could never be peace in Northern Ireland, because neither side would blink. Then in the Good Friday Agreement, the Republic of Ireland officially recognized that Northern Ireland was part of the UK, even rewriting the Republic’s constitution. The Good Friday Agreement also required that the militias on both sides gave up their guns, and there were other sections regarding prisoner releases, guarantees of human rights, etc. Once the agreement was made, it was thought that the voters of Ireland and Northern Ireland wouldn’t be able to put aside their centuries of anger, but both voted in favor of it overwhelmingly. It hasn’t gone completely smoothly, but even in the face of a few outbursts of violence the peace has now held for over 25 years. It is going to take something similar for there to be a lasting peace between Israel and Palestine. Someone is going to have to take the first step, by doing something that previously seemed impossible. You nominated Hamas, which is fine, and it would be great if they would step up. And someone on the Palestinian side will need to be part of this process. But there will also need to be people willing to talk on the Israeli side too. Or the fighting can continue. It took about 400 years of fighting in Ireland to get to the Good Friday Accords. How many more centuries do the people of Israel want to live with backyard bomb shelters? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3296 "2024-01-22T22:36:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > [@Crane](#): > > > > However, Netanyahu and the IDF have achieved their goals. Bibi is still in power and the IDF has avoided an investigation of its incompetence. > > Bibi’s goal was to remain in power through 22 Jan 2024? And the IDF’s goal was to avoid an investigation of its incompetence through 22 Jan 2024? What a coincidence! And what modest goals! The reasoning [I am not speaking hypothetically; some people say this] is that it is better for the current government to continue than to collapse in the middle of the war, because the latter would signal internal weakness and lack of resolve and cohesion. It follows that it is in the government’s interest to extend the war for months and years, and Netanyahu has said as much. On the other hand, I do not think his government was in danger of immediate collapse before the current war, and what has changed, really? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2024, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3297 "2024-01-26T23:16:52Z")
I didn’t see this coming, but it’s not all that surprising either - UN employees working in Gaza have been found to have participated in 10/7. [https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/26/middleeast/unrwa-fires-staff-members-october-7-attacks-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/26/middleeast/unrwa-fires-staff-members-october-7-attacks-intl/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3298 "2024-01-27T01:38:50Z")
I didn’t see that coming, either. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3299 "2024-01-27T09:26:38Z")
Not surprising given the UNRWA is one of the largest employers in Gaza. In other news, the IJC ruling was a bit disappointing - to both sides, it seems. [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/26/middleeast/israel-genocide-case-icj-ruling-analysis-mime-intl/](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/26/middleeast/israel-genocide-case-icj-ruling-analysis-mime-intl/) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3300 "2024-01-27T13:44:41Z")
I read some headline that both sides were pleased with the ruling. But i suspect you are right, and both sides are disappointed. I thought it was fairly balanced. “You are both wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3301 "2024-01-27T14:04:30Z")
Here’s a decent free article about the ruling [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/key-takeaways-world-court-decision-israei-genocide-case-2024-01-26/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/key-takeaways-world-court-decision-israei-genocide-case-2024-01-26/) Some key points: > THE HAGUE/GAZA, Jan 26 (Reuters) - The [World Court](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/world-court-rule-urgent-measures-gaza-genocide-case-2024-01-26/) ordered Israel on Friday to prevent acts of genocide against Palestinians and do more to help civilians, although it stopped short of ordering a ceasefire as requested by the plaintiff South Africa. > … > The International Court of Justice (ICJ) [found](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/key-takeaways-world-court-decision-israei-genocide-case-2024-01-26/) there was a case to be heard about whether Palestinian rights were being denied in a war it said was causing grievous humanitarian harm. It also called for Palestinian armed groups to release hostages captured in the Oct. 7 attacks on Israel that precipitated the conflict. > … > This [humanitarian crisis, especially to children], she said, justified the court’s decision to take emergency action to prevent irreparable harm. She also read out calls from Israeli officials for a harsh campaign, which she said justified the court’s order to Israel to punish people guilty of incitement. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3302 "2024-01-27T14:07:36Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Here’s a decent free article about the ruling From the link: _“While the ICJ’s decisions are final and without appeal, the court has no way to enforce them.”_ ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3303 "2024-01-27T14:40:32Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I read some headline that both sides were pleased with the ruling. But i suspect you are right, and both sides are disappointed. I think the SA side is disappointed that there’s no ceasefire, but happy that most of the rest of their points were agreed to. I think the Israel side is happy there’s no ceasefire, but concerned what all the rest means. Calls for sanctions are going to grow a lot louder if civilians continue to die by the thousands, now, I think. Especially if more those civilians are unarmed grannies blown away while holding hands with their white-flag-carrying grandkids… [https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/26/middleeast/hala-khreis-white-flag-shooting-gaza-cmd-intl](https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/26/middleeast/hala-khreis-white-flag-shooting-gaza-cmd-intl) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3304 "2024-01-27T14:49:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > In other news, the IJC ruling was a bit disappointing - to both sides, it seems. If “both sides” are “supporters of Israel’s government” and “supporters of Hamas,” then sure. But if “both sides” are “people who think the killing should continue” and “people who think the killing should stop,” then only one side should be disappointed. I appreciate that the IJC seems to be on the latter side. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3305 "2024-01-27T14:51:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If “both sides” are “supporters of Israel’s government” and “supporters of Hamas,” then sure. What the fuck? No, “both sides” are South Africa and Israel. Because I was talking about a court case that had two clearly-defined sides. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3306 "2024-01-27T14:54:26Z")
Not attacking you or correcting you at all. Suggesting that the way a lot of people are thinking about the war limits folks into taking one or another side that supports violence, and that’s not the right framing. Are you saying that South Africa is disappointed because the ruling didn’t call for a ceasefire? If so, yeah, that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3307 "2024-01-27T15:19:35Z")
Yeah, that’s nothing in that ruling for Hamas. But South Africa got a partial win in that the world court said, “yep, there’s enough evidence of genocide to launch a full investigation, and hey, Israel, here are some things you need to change if you don’t want to be found guilty of genocide” and Israel got a partial win that the court found they have a right to pursue this war, and have no obligation to immediately cease fire. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3308 "2024-01-27T17:22:42Z")
All the same, I feel like we’re watching bad political theater, like in The Phantom Menace, trying to get the Senate to condemn the blockade (and invasion) of Naboo, and thinking… _Seriously, how is it not obvious that this is wrong? Do we really need a years-long investigation into this before anyone can offer so much as a half-hearted Willy Wonka-esque “No, stop, please…”?_ Anyway, here’s a line that I find helpful whenever one side is clearly perpetrating the majority of the mass-killing, but the other side is considered guilty by association with some another party: > We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere. Any guesses as to who said that? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3309 "2024-01-27T22:31:28Z")
I wouldn’t be guessing, I know who said it. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3310 "2024-01-27T22:47:13Z")
I recognize it, too. It’s a fairly famous quote. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3311 "2024-01-27T22:50:44Z")
Almost as if I wasn’t really expecting anyone to randomly guess who, out of billions of people now living or who have ever lived, said it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3312 "2024-01-30T08:17:08Z")
The latest on the UNRWA scandal; intelligence indicates that as much as 10% of the agency’s employees are members of Hamas, multiple nations have cut their funding, and the agency is likely to run out of money soon. > **[U.N. Agency for Palestinians Imperiled by Terrorism Charges](https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/u-n-agency-for-palestinians-imperiled-by-terrorism-charges/)** > > Donors have pulled funds for the main aid agency in Gaza after allegations that some employees took part in the Oct. 7 attack, but it is not clear who would fill the vacuum if it ran out of money. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3313 "2024-01-30T10:57:19Z")
Possibly a readable link? Like I said before, UNRWA is one of the biggest employers in Gaza - only 10% of their employees belonging to Hamas is frankly surprisingly low. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3314 "2024-01-30T11:22:32Z")
Right - any entity that employs thousands in Gaza is going to employ some Hamas supporters and even members, whether they like it or not. I have little doubt that many, many Israeli companies employ Hamas supporters and members. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=158) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=160)