# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 160
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3315 "2024-01-30T11:30:32Z")
Meanwhile, another day, another war crime… > **[Israeli forces disguised as women and medics storm hospital in West Bank](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/30/israel-forces-disguised-women-medics-storm-hospital-jenin-west-bank)** > > Troops kill three suspected militants in Jenin’s Ibn Sina hospital in occupied Palestinian territories, where violence has escalated ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3316 "2024-01-30T11:48:40Z")
Is that necessarily a war crime if the targets were indeed planning a terrorist attack? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3317 "2024-01-30T12:14:50Z")
Being disguised as noncombatants is itself a war crime, and so is killing wounded enemies (the one target was in hospital because he was partially paralyzed). What the targets were doing doesn’t change that. Also, as for them planning a terrorist attack, I’ve learned better than to take the IDF’s word on anything in this war. See also this report on CNN about another recent war crime: [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/29/world/israel-cemetery-bani-suheila-intl/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/29/world/israel-cemetery-bani-suheila-intl/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3318 "2024-01-30T12:43:16Z")
Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3319 "2024-01-30T13:09:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Being disguised as noncombatants is itself a war crime, and so is killing wounded enemies (the one target was in hospital because he was partially paralyzed). What the targets were doing doesn’t change that. I’m not sure that second part is right. [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2/rule47](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2/rule47) > [@](#): > > **[p]ersons taking no active part in the hostilities**, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed _hors de combat_ by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. Bolding added. If someone is in the hospital, but they’re actively planning an attack, would this rule apply to an attack against them? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3320 "2024-01-30T14:17:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If someone is in the hospital, but they’re actively planning an attack If he was partially paralyzed, he was _hors de combat_ and no, you don’t get to kill him even if he’s “planning an attack”. If he is incapable of defending himself or himself participating in combat, he’s not a legitimate target. Even [Israel’s rules of war](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2/rule47) say so: > Israel’s Manual on the Laws of War (1998) states: > > The laws of war do set clear bars to the possibility of harming combatants when the combatant is found “outside the frame of hostilities”, as when he asks to surrender, or when he is wounded in a way that does not allow him to take an active part in the fighting. In such situations it is absolutely prohibited to harm the combatant. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3321 "2024-01-30T17:35:08Z")
I genuinely don’t know: is engaging in strategizing definitively not “taking an active part in the fighting”? I would think that would count, but am not super familiar with the rules. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3322 "2024-01-30T20:30:00Z")
I don’t actually have an interest in any more discussion of hypotheticals, as I don’t believe the IDF when they say the sky is blue, so I don’t believe this particular paralyzed guy in a hospital bed undergoing treatment was planning a specific attack. They already definitely committed a war crime just by disguising themselves as noncombatants, why would I give them any benefit of the doubt about their reasons for doing so? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3323 "2024-01-30T20:30:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > They already definitely committed a war crime just by disguising themselves as noncombatants, why would I give them any benefit of the doubt about their reasons for doing so? Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3324 "2024-01-30T20:32:25Z")
And before any pedants jump in - I know Israel isn’t a signatory to the perfidy Protocol. Doesn’t mean when they do it, it’s not a war crime. Just means they’re not being hypocrites about it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3325 "2024-01-31T04:32:39Z")
Fighting by your opponent’s standards is just in my eyes. Israel isn’t even stooping 1/10 as low as Hamas, so I am not sure what the problem is. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3326 "2024-01-31T05:44:38Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Fighting by your opponent’s standards is just in my eyes. Not mine. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3327 "2024-01-31T05:54:44Z")
Yeah, with a bit of thought, I probably should have qualified that statement a bit more. Like, I don’t think anything goes just because you are fighting a truly despicable opponent. I just think the lines are pretty fuzzy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3328 "2024-01-31T05:57:29Z")
War crimes are war crimes regardless of who you’re fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3329 "2024-01-31T07:30:03Z")
War crimes are what the country that won a war calls it when the losers played by the same rules they do. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3330 "2024-01-31T07:35:49Z")
That’s a nice soundbite, but no. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3331 "2024-01-31T16:15:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Fighting by your opponent’s standards is just in my eyes. If Hamas and IDF could be locked in a room together, I would be a lot less concerned about what they do to one another. But Hamas’s brutal attacks on innocent people doesn’t give IDF free rein to commit brutal attacks on innocent people. And IDF’s standards shouldn’t be “don’t be literally as bad as a bunch of terrorist murderers,” nor should it even be, “don’t be literally 1/10 as bad as a bunch of terrorist murderers.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3332 "2024-01-31T16:33:38Z")
Especially if that translates into “indiscriminately kill 20x the number of people that a bunch of terrorist murderers killed”. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3333 "2024-01-31T16:46:12Z")
Even more disturbing: it may have seemed that Israel suffered a sneak attack and reacted by turning Gaza into a howling wilderness, but it now appears that Israel suffered a sneak attack and opened a file cabinet with a folder labeled “turn Gaza into a howling wilderness.” ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3334 "2024-02-01T02:57:00Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Fighting by your opponent’s standards is just in my eyes. Israel isn’t even stooping 1/10 as low as Hamas, so I am not sure what the problem is. So you would have no problem with the cities of Israel being leveled? Are home made missiles OK, or do you only accept professionally made ordinance delivered by billion dollar aircraft? If the explosives from an artillery shell are removed and turned into an IED that blows up a bus, is that good - or do you demand that all explosives be used in their original packaging? [https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2024/jan/30/how-war-destroyed-gazas-neighbourhoods-visual-investigation](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2024/jan/30/how-war-destroyed-gazas-neighbourhoods-visual-investigation) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=159) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=161)