# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 161
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3335 "2024-02-01T04:23:29Z")
Ultimately, what I think is hardly relevant. No amount of reason is going to convince those who fervently cling to their set of axioms that govern their worldview. That’s why we have a conflict of arms at the moment. Reason has failed because of incompatible world view. When we discuss things like law and morality, that is just another layer in that conflict. I understand war is ugly. I understand that there are going to be horrors in a war. That said, I tend to align against those who use rape and infanticide as _deliberate_ tactics. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3336 "2024-02-01T05:02:10Z")
Was the _resistance_ in WW2 a war crime? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3337 "2024-02-01T05:24:11Z")
Quite often it was illegal. And certainly, the so-called resistance did employ tactics that were morally reprehensible and illegal. Here is an interesting article on some of the nuances. [Rules Between Guerrilla Warfare and War Crimes - The Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/2003/04/06/rules-between-guerrilla-warfare-and-war-crimes/4125b046-b977-4e4f-83d6-b87c75578a2e/) Ultimately, the labeling of certain activities moral or a war crime is all an exercise in attempting to shape an intrinsically subjective moral construct. And this moral construct only has the weight that force of arms can apply. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3338 "2024-02-01T06:08:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Quite often it was illegal. And certainly, the so-called resistance did employ tactics that were morally reprehensible and illegal. Illegal, as in the Nazi could shoot them- certainly. If you are not wearing the proper uniform behind enemy lines you can be shot as a spy, etc. That doesnt make it a 'war crime". But there is really nothing that is _morally reprehensible_ when you kill nazis who have invaded your homeland and committed many war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3339 "2024-02-01T06:24:41Z")
To be fair, the US has plans in a filing cabinet for a zombie apocalypse, and probably for an invasion of Canada. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3340 "2024-02-01T07:53:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Was the _resistance_ in WW2 a war crime? Depends. Did they fulfill these conditions: > (a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; > (b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; > (c) That of carrying arms openly; > (d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. or these: > Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. If they do, they are not committing war crimes just by conducting operations and not resorting to perfidy. Whether any particular war crime is morally reprehensible or not is up to the individual’s moral compass. Mine definitely draws the line way before shooting grandmothers travelling under a white flag, digging up graveyards, and assassinating bedridden paralytics from medical disguise. Also killing unarmed civilians, rape and torture, shouldn’t need saying. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3341 "2024-02-01T11:11:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Illegal, as in the Nazi could shoot them- certainly. Maybe I’m missing something; couldn’t the Nazis shoot them _regardless?_ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3342 "2024-02-01T11:45:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Mine definitely draws the line way before shooting grandmothers travelling under a white flag, digging up graveyards, and assassinating bedridden paralytics from medical disguise. Obviously the first one is terrible. The second one is pretty bad, but not in the same league. But assassinations? I wish the entire war were being conducted by assassinating enemy leaders. I don’t care if the leaders are bedridden: if they involved themselves willingly in the fighting, please focus on them, not on the civilians. The disguise part is obviously a real problem, as it leads to more targeting of civilians. But the assassination aspect is the best of a bunch of bad choices. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3343 "2024-02-01T12:00:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The second one is pretty bad, but not in the same league. I never said all war crimes are equivalent. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t care if the leaders are bedridden I do. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But the assassination aspect is the best of a bunch of bad choices. Capture not an option in your world? ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3344 "2024-02-01T17:20:40Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Ultimately, what I think is hardly relevant. No amount of reason is going to convince those who fervently cling to their set of axioms that govern their worldview. That’s why we have a conflict of arms at the moment. Reason has failed because of incompatible world view. > > When we discuss things like law and morality, that is just another layer in that conflict. > > I understand war is ugly. I understand that there are going to be horrors in a war. That said, I tend to align against those who use rape and infanticide as _deliberate_ tactics. The word deliberate is doing a lot of work here. Right now, the war in Gaza is like throwing a grenade in a fish barrel. If it makes you feel better to think that the Israeli government and the IDF do not know for certain that their current military actions have caused and will continue to cause the deaths of infants, mazel. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3345 "2024-02-02T02:31:12Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > If it makes you feel better to think that the Israeli government and the IDF do not know for certain that their current military actions have caused and will continue to cause the deaths of infants, mazel. If it makes you feel better to think that Hamas does not know for certain their current military actions have caused and will continue to cause the deaths of infants, mazel. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3346 "2024-02-02T03:39:14Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > Right now, the war in Gaza is like throwing a grenade in a fish barrel. If it makes you feel better to think that the Israeli government and the IDF do not know for certain that their current military actions have caused and will continue to cause the deaths of infants, mazel. Here’s the issue. _Hamas attacked Israel, committing many horrible atrocities._ ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3347 "2024-02-02T12:11:05Z")
Here’s the other issue. In their _fully justified_ military response, Israel has committed many horrible atrocities that were not justified. If Israel’s attacks on hospitals were anything other than meanness and cruelty, they would have stayed and ensured those hospitals were quickly back in running order and secured against Hamas moving back in. If a bully punches you, you are justified in punching back. Even punching back harder. But if once you’ve got him cowering on the ground you continue and kick his nuts until he can never have children and then stab his eyes out and cut off his nose, you are no longer the only victim. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3348 "2024-02-02T12:29:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > > > If it makes you feel better to think that the Israeli government and the IDF do not know for certain that their current military actions have caused and will continue to cause the deaths of infants, mazel. > > If it makes you feel better to think that Hamas does not know for certain their current military actions have caused and will continue to cause the deaths of infants, mazel. I’m puzzled by your statement. I am fully aware that Hamas is knowingly doing things that are killing infants. They suck, and I am not aligned with them. My statement is to Octopus who believes, as I’m sure many do, that any civilian deaths in Gaza are merely collateral damage and not deliberate and therefore not as bad. However, it is laughable that anyone in Israeli civilian or military leadership does not know that their actions in Gaza are certainly going to kill civilians and that a certain percentage of those killed will be infants. And yet, they deliberately take those actions. If it makes you feel better that your team doesn’t usually see the babies being killed, good for you, but it is sanctimonious bull to pretend that Israel isn’t deliberately killing civilians in Gaza. They may not be the target, but anyone with 1/3 of a brain knows that if you bomb and shell a city people living there will die. Now, let me be clear, I appreciate that civilians die in war. I am not arguing that. But it is disingenuous and disgusting for anyone to pretend that all of the civilian deaths in Gaza are just oopsies. When I was a senior in high school, my English teacher somehow got permission for us to read and meet with the author of Killing For Company, a book about a British serial killer who later molested and the cut up the bodies. The killer stated that one of the things that struck him was that people seemed way more upset over what he did to the bodies then the fact he actually killed people. Similarly, in Gaza people seem to be far more concerned about how one set of civilians were killed, rather than the fact that civilians are being killed by both sides. > Blockquote ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3349 "2024-02-02T12:36:39Z")
Hamas did what now? I won’t repeat the screed I just typed, but just so I don’t leave you hanging: yes, Hamas did a terrible thing on 10/7, I don’t align myself with them. Israel has been doing terrible things to the civilians of Gaza in the three months since then, and I don’t align myself with Israel either. No one is required to root for either side in a war, and it is entirely possible to think that both sides are doing terrible things. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3350 "2024-02-02T16:07:38Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > Similarly, in Gaza people seem to be far more concerned about how one set of civilians were killed, rather than the fact that civilians are being killed by both sides. It’s also troubling that a lot of people seem to be assiduously spreading very horrific stories, claiming things about what happened to some Israeli civilians on Oct. 7, that are apparently at least partly based on [very unreliable narratives.](https://thegrayzone.com/2024/01/10/questions-nyt-hamas-rape-report/) Personally, I agree with you that the actual documented facts about Hamas war crimes are plenty bad enough without embellishing them with prurient speculations and made-up sensationally gruesome details. But the prurient gruesome stuff serves the purpose of whipping up angry and scared people to the point where they condone retaliatory atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3351 "2024-02-02T16:21:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > medical disguise To be fair, medical personnel have been treated as enemy combatants by the IDF before, so they might feel it’s a perfectly cromulent uniform. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3352 "2024-02-02T21:38:16Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > However, it is laughable that anyone in Israeli civilian or military leadership does not know that their actions in Gaza are certainly going to kill civilians and that a certain percentage of those killed will be infants. And yet, they deliberately take those actions. If it makes you feel better that your team doesn’t usually see the babies being killed, good for you, but it is sanctimonious bull to pretend that Israel isn’t deliberately killing civilians in Gaza. That’s not 'deliberate" that is accidental, but expected. The IDF does not want to kill civilians, but Hamas uses human shields. Mind you Hamas recruits youths as terrorists, so a certain number of so-called 'children" are legit targets. If a 17yo is shooting at you with a AK47, you shoot back, you can’t check ID and let him kill freely. > **[mde150352004en.pdf](https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/mde150352004en.pdf)** > > 110.28 KB _Amnesty International is gravely concerned about reports that earlier today a 16-year-old Palestinian child_ _was found to be carrying explosives when attempting to pass through the Israeli army checkpoint at Huwara,_ _at the entrance of the West Bank town of Nablus._ _Reports indicate that the boy was wearing an explosive belt, which would suggest that he was_ _knowingly carrying it. According to Israeli army reports the boy may have intended to detonate the explosive_ _belt, and thus commit suicide, near soldiers manning the checkpoint._ _Last week, Israeli soldiers discovered a bag of explosives in the possession of an 11-year old_ _Palestinian child at the same checkpoint. The boy, who regularly carried bags for travellers from one side of_ _the checkpoint to the other, was reported not to have been aware that one of the bags on his cart contained_ _explosives._ _"Amnesty International has repeatedly condemned suicide bombings and other attacks against_ _civilians by Palestinian armed groups as crimes against humanity. Using children to carry out or assist in_ _armed attacks of any kind is an abomination. We call on the Palestinian leadership to publicly denounce_ _these practices."_ _"Palestinian armed groups, including Hamas, Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa Martyrs’s brigades, must_ _put an immediate end to the use or involvement of any kind of children in armed activity."_ Of course, when Hams puts out it’s totally bogus casualty listings, it’s always women and children. They never admit one/many of their terrorists was killed. Isnt that odd? ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3353 "2024-02-02T22:03:32Z")
You can come back at me with any and all reports of Hamas doing horrible things any time you want, but I am in no way denying that they do horrible things. I will quote myself from a few posts above: “I am fully aware that Hamas is knowingly doing things that are killing infants. They suck, and I am not aligned with them.” You just used the phrase “accidental, but expected” about civilian deaths. How can something be an expected accident? Those words don’t work together. Let me try to be perfectly clear here. In this particular exchange I am in no way denying that Hamas is very, very bad, and that they are currently hiding among the civilian population of Gaza. I also fully appreciate that there is no practical way for Israel to attempt military operations against Hamas in Gaza without inflicting civilian casualties. In this particular exchange, I’m not even calling upon the Israelis to stop those military actions. But can we at least get past the farce that the Israeli government and the IDF are not deliberately taking actions that they know are killing civilians? I’m not even asking them to stop the killing, just that people are honest about what is happening. If people here want to support Israel’s war effort, please by all means do so. But do so for honest, valid reasons. Not because you think that high tech, random death generation is somehow morally superior to looking someone in the eye when you kill them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2024, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3354 "2024-02-03T00:38:49Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > But can we at least get past the farce that the Israeli government and the IDF are not deliberately taking actions that they know are killing civilians? The IDF would love to be killing nothing but Hamas- do you deny that? They’d rather not kill innocents- it is bad publicity. But yeah, if they think they can kill off two Hamas leaders- and that might also kill off a half dozen innocents- they are fine with that. Its not deliberate. Its just cold blooded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=160) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=162)