# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 164
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3395 "2024-02-08T00:49:33Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Everyone expected them to respond with violence. That is an extremely broad term. They could have replied with less violence than they did. At the risk of being flip, they also could have responded with _more_ violence than they did. I think a lot of people look at what they’re seeing from Gaza and view it as particularly, distinctly awful… it feels “worse” than “similar” wars/attacks/sieges/battles. Why is that? Well, there are several possibilities: (1) Israel is being particularly cruel/heartless/murderous/war-crime-y/genocidal (2) It is not, in fact, worse… it’s just an artifact of the amount of attention the world media has always focused in Israel/Palestine compared to other conflicts around the world (2a) It is not, in fact, worse… it’s just an artifact of inaccurate information, due to some combination of deliberately biased reporting and general fog-of-war and if-it-bleeds-it-leads (3) Geographical factors unique to Gaza (ie, population density, lack of internal water sources) (4) Social/demographics factors unique to Gaza (ie, how Hamas is integrated into the local population) (4a) Social/demographics factors unique to Gaza _deliberately and callously engineered by Hamas_ Most likely, it’s more than one of the above (plus I’m sure factors I haven’t thought of). I personally have no idea how to really fairly assess it… but I take issue at what I perceive as the immediate assumption that it’s all, or nearly entirely, due to (1). Taking a step back for a second, it’s easy, at the remove that many of us are, to become very cold-blooded and heartless in these debates. It’s hard to imagine anyone with even a shred of human decency not to fervently wish for the killing and violence to stop… which I certainly do. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3396 "2024-02-08T02:13:34Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I think a lot of people look at what they’re seeing from Gaza and view it as particularly, distinctly awful… it feels “worse” than “similar” wars/attacks/sieges/battles. > > Why is that? Well, there are several possibilities: > [@](#): > > I have been working in global public health for 20 years, and I have never heard health and aid organisations as forthright and concerned as they are about the level of suffering and deaths in Gaza. It is an unprecedented conflict, breaking the most tragic records, and [while experts might debate](https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/) whether it’s a genocide or not, the truth is we’re witnessing the mass killing of a population, whether by bomb, bullet, starvation or disease. > **[It’s not just bullets and bombs. I have never seen health organisations as...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/29/health-organisations-disease-gaza-population-outbreaks-conflict)** > > A quarter of its Gaza’s population could die within a year due to outbreaks caused by this unprecedented conflict, says Devi Sridhar, chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh > [@](#): > > Dr Georgia Andreou from the Institute of Archaeology at University College London has been looking into the destruction of heritage sites in the Gaza Strip. She says many holy sites have great historical significance, and that the destruction of sacred, as well as heritage, sites in Gaza is “the worst I have ever seen”. > **[Israel-Gaza war: Counting the destruction of religious sites](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67983018)** > > Some of the world’s oldest churches and mosques have been completely destroyed in the conflict. > [@](#): > > In just over two months, researchers say the offensive has wreaked more destruction than [the razing of Syria’s Aleppo](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-syria-middle-east-aleppo-64234c1b4e9d5110832c394dcc103ecd) between 2012 and 2016, [Ukraine’s Mariupol](https://apnews.com/hub/mariupol) or, proportionally, the Allied bombing of Germany in World War II. It has killed more civilians than the U.S.-led coalition did in its three-year campaign against [the Islamic State](https://apnews.com/hub/islamic-state-group) group. > **[Israel's military campaign in Gaza seen as among the most destructive in...](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796)** > > After 11 weeks of war in Gaza, the Israeli military campaign against Hamas now sits among the deadliest and most destructive in history, experts say. > [@](#): > > A British surgeon who led an emergency medical team in central Gaza says the situation at Al-Aqsa hospital has been “beyond any doubt the worst thing” he’s seen in his career, as Jordan’s monarch warned Israel’s bombardment was creating an “entire generation of orphans.” > > “There’s been multiple traumatic amputations of children … horrific burns, the likes of which I’ve never seen before,” Dr. Nick Maynard told CNN’s Isa Soares on Monday after his team found themselves with no choice but to withdraw from the hospital, following increased Israeli military activity. [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/09/middleeast/gaza-orphan-british-doctor-jordan-king-intl-hnk/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/01/09/middleeast/gaza-orphan-british-doctor-jordan-king-intl-hnk/index.html) > [@](#): > > The humanitarian situation in Gaza is catastrophic; it is amongst the worst we have witnessed and will likely only get worse as hostilities continue. The large majority of the civilian population is in desperate need of humanitarian assistance and protection. > **[Aqaba Process Joint Statement on Gaza’s Humanitarian Situation \[EN/AR\] -...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/aqaba-process-joint-statement-gazas-humanitarian-situation-enar)** > > News and Press Release in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory about Food and Nutrition, Health and more; published on 6 Dec 2023 by Anera, CARE and 21ount other organizations > [@](#): > > Tens of thousands of people, mostly women and children, have been killed or injured. Families are sleeping in the open as temperatures plummet. Areas where civilians were told to relocate for their safety have come under bombardment. Medical facilities are under relentless attack. The few hospitals that are partially functional are overwhelmed with trauma cases, critically short of all supplies, and inundated by desperate people seeking safety. > > A public health disaster is unfolding. Infectious diseases are spreading in overcrowded shelters as sewers spill over. Some 180 Palestinian women are giving birth daily amidst this chaos. People are facing the highest levels of food insecurity ever recorded. Famine is around the corner. > > For children in particular, the past 12 weeks have been traumatic: No food. No water. No school. Nothing but the terrifying sounds of war, day in and day out. > > Gaza has simply become uninhabitable. Its people are witnessing daily threats to their very existence – while the world watches on. > **[UN relief chief: The war in Gaza must end](https://www.unocha.org/news/un-relief-chief-war-gaza-must-end)** > > Statement by Martin Griffiths, Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator > [@](#): > > Israel’s military operation in Gaza, in the aftermath of the heinous 7 October attack by Hamas, has become the deadliest, most dangerous conflict for journalists in recent history, UN experts said today. > > … > > According to UN reports, since 7 October, over 122 journalists and media workers have been killed in Gaza, and many have been injured. [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/gaza-un-experts-condemn-killing-and-silencing-journalists](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/gaza-un-experts-condemn-killing-and-silencing-journalists) > [@](#): > > “Devastated. Over 100 UNRWA colleagues confirmed killed in 1 month. Parents, teachers, nurses, doctors, support staff. UNRWA is mourning, Palestinians mourning, Israelis mourning,” Philippe Lazzarini said on social media platform X. The agency later said it was mourning 101 colleagues. > > … > > Besides Gaza, the next most deadly conflicts for U.N. aid workers was Nigeria in 2011 when a suicide bomber attacked its Abuja office during an Islamist insurgency, killing 46. [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-mourns-record-death-toll-war-with-over-100-employees-killed-gaza-2023-11-10/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-mourns-record-death-toll-war-with-over-100-employees-killed-gaza-2023-11-10/) This doesn’t “feel worse.” It’s _objectively_ worse. Doctors, humanitarian agencies, aid workers, UN officials, all who have worked in some of the worst warzones in the world, are calling this "one of the worst they’ve ever seen. More journalists have died in this conflict than in any other since CPJ started records in 1992. More UN Aid workers: over 100 in Gaza, the previous high was a single bombing in 2011 with 46. They are breaking _records_ here. And one of the reasons why this conflict is so deadly is because the civilians in Gaza are _trapped_. There is literally nowhere for them to go. They were initially given 24 hours notices to “leave Northern Gaza” and head to the safe zones in the south. Then those safe zones kept getting attacked, and pushed back, and latest estimates say that 1.5 million of the 2.2 million people of Gaza are now in Rafah. In other conflicts you might just have a chance to get away and hide. But there is no hiding in Gaza. Nowhere is safe. There is essentially no healthcare system any more. North and central Gaza have largely been bombed to buggery and they are demolishing more with controlled explosives and bulldozers. And they are attacking Rafah now. They are _literally bombing tents_. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Most likely, it’s more than one of the above (plus I’m sure factors I haven’t thought of). I personally have no idea how to really fairly assess it… but I take issue at what I perceive as the immediate assumption that it’s all, or nearly entirely, due to (1). The issue here is that you are _assuming we are making assumptions_ and not simply _following along as it happens_. If you want to make a fair assessment, then you listen to the humanitarian agencies on the ground. You listen to the doctors and medical teams who have done their time in what remains of the healthcare system. There really is _no excuse_ not to be informed if you want to be. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3397 "2024-02-08T03:46:12Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I personally have no idea how to really fairly assess it I don’t know how to assess all of it, but i do feel i can assess the destruction of hospitals and the extremely high mortality of reporters. That’s why i mentioned those two things. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3398 "2024-02-08T04:50:34Z")
The issue _isn’t_ that they responded with violence to violence, it’s the degree of violence, who and what they targeted it at, the lies they use to justify it, and the stubborn refusal to admit they did _any_ of the above wrong. All of which they absolutely have choices about. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I think a lot of people look at what they’re seeing from Gaza and view it as particularly, distinctly awful… No. We (or at least, I) think it looks all too _familiarly_ awful. From recent (even current) wars and related atrocities where the people doing the things Israel is doing right now are very much considered _wrong_. This conflict may be getting exaggerated attention because of where it is, but nothing about Israeli tactics would seem _unique_ to a Ukrainian or a Rohingya. Possibly worse _in degree_, for reasons Banquet\_Bear mentions, but not _unique_, no. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3399 "2024-02-08T05:52:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This conflict may be getting exaggerated attention because of where it is, but nothing about Israeli tactics would seem _unique_ to a Ukrainian or a Rohingya No, I think Russia’s invasion of Ukraine worse- at least the Ukrainians did nothing to start it. They are blameless. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3400 "2024-02-08T05:58:53Z")
What does “who started it” have to do with the legitimacy of war crimes? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3401 "2024-02-08T06:03:51Z")
Who was talking about _blame_? _I_ was talking about levels of violence and tactics. _Blame_ is a complete _non sequitur_. I notice you have time for this fallacious drive-by, but neither a substantive response to the counterpoints I raised before nor a defence of your selective quoting in your previous post. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3402 "2024-02-08T06:13:20Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > What does “who started it” have to do with the legitimacy of war crimes? Nuremberg Tribunal. Several German leaders were convicted of stuff like plotting and carrying out invasions of other countries, Of course others were charged with atrocities, but just the act of attacking and starting a war was a crime. So 'who started it" is part of war crime. Nazi Germany started WW2. > [@MrDibble](#): > > notice you have time for this fallacious drive-by, Not fallacious. > [@MrDibble](#): > > but neither a substantive response to the counterpoints I raised before You didnt raise any counterpoints worth discussing. > [@MrDibble](#): > > defence of your selective quoting in your previous post. Nor did I need a defense of a full quote, nothing taken out. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3403 "2024-02-08T06:42:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not fallacious. _Non sequitur_ is a fallacy. > [@DrDeth](#): > > You didnt raise any counterpoints worth discussing. Sure. _Only_ cites that the lies you reposted are now _known_ as lies and _proved_ as lies by the Israelis’ own official reporting. _Nothing_ worth discussing there. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Nor did I need a defense of a full quote, nothing taken out. No, “just” cropped just short of its own self-contained rebuttal, and never actually properly linked to. _Disingenuous_ is one word for it. > [@DrDeth](#): > > So 'who started it" is part of war crime. You can, of course, cite this “who started it” precondition for the crimes in actual IHL, right? I mean, I see nothing about “it’s OK if the people in the civilan hospital started it” in Article 13 of the relevant GC, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3404 "2024-02-08T06:59:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _Non sequitur_ is a fallacy. Yes, and? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3405 "2024-02-08T07:00:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > _Non sequitur_ is a fallacy. > > Yes, and? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Not fallacious. Enough said. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3406 "2024-02-08T12:21:40Z")
Moderating: > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > You didnt raise any counterpoints worth discussing. > > Sure. _Only_ cites that the lies you reposted are now _known_ as lies and _proved_ as lies by the Israelis’ own official reporting. _Nothing_ worth discussing there. > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > Nor did I need a defense of a full quote, nothing taken out. > > No, “just” cropped just short of its own self-contained rebuttal, and never actually properly linked to. _Disingenuous_ is one word for it. Take it down a notch. You already posted a substantive claim for each of these, which other posters can evaluate. Hammering repeatedly becomes attacking the poster. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3407 "2024-02-08T13:10:25Z")
I know “both sides suck” is a bit of a cop-out, but that’s where I sit now. I’m not particularly enamored of either. And I’d be a lot more sympathetic to Israel if: -Netanyahu’s government hadn’t empowered Hamas in an effort to avoid solving the problem -The Israeli government gave half a crap about the settlements -The Israeli government did anything about settler-on-Palestinian violence in the West Bank -Netanyahu hadn’t declared two state solution dead -Israel at least made pretenses that they have a plan to bring this thing to a reasonable conclusion Those last three in particular make me think the real plan is to just grind it out ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3408 "2024-02-08T14:11:56Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > I know “both sides suck” is a bit of a cop-out, but that’s where I sit now. I Who is “both sides” here? Hamas and the IDF? Sure, yes, undoubtedly. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3409 "2024-02-08T14:12:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The October 7 attack was the deadliest terrorist attack against Israel since the state’s establishment in 1948, and the scale of the death toll was unprecedented in Israeli history. The success of the attack can be attributed directly to the IDF: The IDF sucked up a billion dollars to build a siege fence then walked away from it. There was no eyes-on monitoring of the perimeter and no plan or force to respond to violations. They left security to an expensive Sci-Fi fantasy. Allowing the Reim celebration next to the fence without IDF protection was a dereliction of duty. They did not even provide for minimum security like an emergency plan and communication facilities. I have managed Birding Festivals that were more secure. Israeli [SS](https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/official-israeli-data-exposes-lies-about-murder-of-babies-by-hamas-16250806) reports the casualties of the attack as: 313 killed at festival 354 adult Israelis (outside of festival) 36 Israeli children 71 foreigners 372 security personnel (police, IDF and off duty IDF) Some of the IDF losses were at attacks on three military installations. Five groups were involved. and the fence was open for most of the day. Gazans looters, rioters and partisans traveled back and forth unimpeded. Posts of 1200 raped and killed are propagandist nonsense. There were 731 Israeli civilians killed by murder, crossfire and atrocious acts of violence, during a breakout of a population that was under siege by Israel. This could have been prevented had the IDF been engaged in defending their country. That is what they get paid for. So, it would be more correct to say that the 731 innocent civilians killed on Oct 7 were the greatest failure of the IDF in Israeli history. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3410 "2024-02-08T14:18:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Who is “both sides” here? Hamas and the IDF? Sure, yes, undoubtedly. OK, maybe all three sides, because Netanyahu and his government are a big part of this. I strongly suspect (but can’t know, of course) that inside himself Netanyahu sees this as an opportunity. So I guess it depends on whether you want to look at the IDF and the current Israeli government as one thing or two. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3411 "2024-02-08T14:20:09Z")
I’m happy to lump them together. Just so we’re clear that you’re not counting Palestinian civilians into the everyone who sucks. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3412 "2024-02-08T14:24:11Z")
There are Israeli civilians who don’t suck, too. Some of whom died on October 7. Some of whom have been trying to oust the current government. Lotta innocent people die in a war. War crimes only make it worse, of course. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3413 "2024-02-08T14:27:09Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > There are Israeli civilians who don’t suck, too. Sure. Some of them even post here 😃 . Just want to get ahead of the conflation of Hamas and all Palestinians that I’ve already called out multiple times (not that I think OldOlds was doing that). ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2024, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3414 "2024-02-08T14:45:51Z")
I was not. I may have been lazy inasmuch as I’m prone to say “Israel” when I mean the government, but I am not tarring either population with the same brush as their respective governments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=163) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=165)