# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 166
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3435 "2024-02-09T05:31:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _"The conclusion that_ **unlawful combatants, including terrorist organizations and organizations that harbor them, are not subject to Geneva Convention protection** _also has other important consequences besides national security and the collection of life-saving military intelligence._" You’re citing the author of the [Torture Memos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_Memos) as an authority on what’s permissible under IHL? The guy whose work was openly repudiated by the later government of his own country? [The guy many people have tried to get properly tried for war crimes himself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Yoo#War_crimes_accusations)? _That’s_ the guy you want to cite? And the ICRC cite is about whether actions by terrorists and against terrorists are covered by IHL. Not actions against civilians, for which there is an entire body of IHL beyond the conventions. Also, it’s a neat trick - declare your opponents terrorists, then you can do what you want to them… [it feels very familiar, somehow](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/us-government-considered-nelson-mandela-terrorist-until-2008-flna2D11708787). But always remember to remind people that they’re also the government that people voted for (even though that makes them state actors and hence covered by the conventions, but who cares about consistency?) ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3436 "2024-02-09T06:02:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Hamas doesnt follow international law or the geneva conventions. In fact it is listed internationally as a terrorist organization. So if the IDF is doing the same thing Hamas did…are they a terrorist organization? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3437 "2024-02-09T06:41:43Z")
Naah, you need to be declared a terrorist by _the right people_ \*nudge, nudge, wink, wink". If you’re Israeli, and you [commited](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)#Post_war_terrorist_campaign_and_insurgency) what would otherwise be considered [acts of terrorism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Resistance_Movement), historically, [they give you a medal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders,_decorations,_and_medals_of_Israel#Awards_for_military_service). [Regardless of who you got into bed with on the way.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(militant_group)#Nazi_Germany) With that kind of historical consistency, of course whenever a group is called a “terrorist organization” we must believe those doing the calling. But groups that have their _roots_ in terrorist organizations are, of course, squeaky clean. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3438 "2024-02-09T06:42:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You’re citing the author of the [Torture Memos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_Memos) as an authority on what’s permissible under IHL? yes, and? I was citing the Univ of Calif Berkeley . So you are attacking the cite- without having a better cite? Do you deny that the Geneva Conventions do not cover terrorists? I also cited the Red Cross. And the EU declared Hamas terrorists, I wasnt citing Israel. > [@Chisquirrel](#): > > So if the IDF is doing the same thing Hamas did…are they a terrorist organization? Not according the the EU. and not the same thing. Hamas is internationally recognized as being a Terrorist org. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Naah, you need to be declared a terrorist by _the right people_ \*nudge, nudge, wink, wink". Yes, the EU. So, there is no doubt that Hamas is a terrorist org. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3439 "2024-02-09T06:47:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > All _after_ **Hamas** made the _decision_ to attack Israel. …irrelevant. International Humanitarian Law is quite clear here. There are a very _limited_ set of circumstances where hospitals are allowed to be attacked. Experts in international law have argued that in none of the situations in Gaza has Israel produced any evidence that would satisfy those circumstances. And even if they did: once the threat had been eliminated they were required to allow the hospital to continue operation, stepping in to assist if need be. This hasn’t happened. It’s about as egregious a violation of International Humanitarian Law as you can get. If it was simply one hospital then…maybe. But it’s _23 hospitals_. And 3 currently under siege. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Thus all that is the fault of Hamas. “But Hamas” isn’t a defence under International Humanitarian Law. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Hamas doesnt follow international law or the geneva conventions. But the Geneva Conventions and International Law are in place for a reason. They are there to protect combatants in battle, and how they are treated if they are captured by either side. And they are also there to protect _civilians_. And that’s the issue here. (Of course, the evidence very strongly suggests that Israel are abusing people that they have detained as well, some may or may not be members of Hamas) > [@DrDeth](#): > > Thus no nation has _any_ obligation to follow the Geneva conventions when dealing with terrorists. Wow. John Yoo huh? We were talking about hospitals, and doctors and medical staff aren’t unlawful combatants, and which _aren’t_ terrorist organizations, nor are they _harbouring_ them. The opinion isn’t relevant here. > [@DrDeth](#): > > So no- Israel did not violate the Geneva conventions, etc. That’s a creative interpretation of that opinion that is at odds with what the International Red Cross have specifically said about this conflict: > [@ICRC](#): > > The rules of war are clear. Hospitals are specially protected facilities under international humanitarian law. The ICRC urgently calls for the immediate protection of all civilians, including humanitarian workers and medical personnel. This protection is not only a legal obligation but a moral imperative to preserve human life in these terrible times. > **[Israel and the occupied territories: ICRC demands protection of patients,...](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/israel-and-occupied-territories-icrc-demands-protection-patients-healthcare-workers-medical-facilities-in-gaza)** > > The ICRC is urgently calling for the respect and protection of medical facilities, patients and health-care workers in Gaza. If you can find a quote from them that suggest otherwise, please feel free to quote them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3440 "2024-02-09T06:51:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > yes, and? You attempted to appeal to an authority that lacks any authority to speak. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I was citing the Univ of Calif Berkeley No. Papers are authored by humans, not institutions. John Yoo is a human. A _terrible_ human. But nevertheless… > [@DrDeth](#): > > So you are attacking the cite Damn straight > [@DrDeth](#): > > without having a better cite? I’ve cited why Yoo is a terrible cite. I’ve also cited previously the actual conventions that cover these situations. Although a blank Post-It is a better cite than a John Yoo paper, really. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Do you deny that the Geneva Conventions do not cover terrorists? I do so deny. If the “terrorists” are state actors, they are covered by the conventions. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I also cited the Red Cross. And I pointed out how your cite doesn’t say what you think it says. > [@DrDeth](#): > > And the EU declared Hamas terrorists Hamas has been on and off the EU list multiple times. I quite frankly don’t care who Western governments call terrorists or don’t. My own historical experience shows they get it very wrong. Especially when their most recent assessment can be partly based off Israeli lies about exactly what atrocities have been committed. . ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3441 "2024-02-09T07:01:43Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > International Humanitarian Law is quite clear here. Does it apply to terrorists? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But the Geneva Conventions and International Law are in place for a reason. The Geneva conventions do not apply to terrorists. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Wow. John Yoo huh? And the Red Cross. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ve cited why Yoo is a terrible cite. It doesnt matter since I also cited the Red cross. And you have no counter cite. Saying a cite is bad without a counter cite is worthless. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I do so deny. If the “terrorists” are state actors, they are covered by the conventions. They arent -they are terrorists. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I quite frankly don’t care who Western governments call terrorists or don’t. _I quite frankly don’t care_ about your personal opinion on this, since the EU, etc have declared them terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3442 "2024-02-09T07:09:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It doesnt matter It very much does matter, as he’s the only cite you actually quoted rather than merely linking to. Hence his is the only cited argument you actually posted in that thread. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I also cited the Red cross. The Red Cross cite that was specifically about NSAs? _That_ Red Cross cite? Are Hamas the government of Gaza, or aren’t they? > [@DrDeth](#): > > And you have no counter cite. I’ve already cited the _actual_ conventions. Please point to where they mention “terrorists”. > [@DrDeth](#): > > They arent -they are terrorists Cite where the conventions mention “terrorists”, please. > [@DrDeth](#): > > the EU, etc have declared them terrorists. And will you care when the EU again says they’re not? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3443 "2024-02-09T07:34:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Does it apply to terrorists? …thats a particularly complicated question, but not one that is particularly relevant here. Because we are talking about the protections given to hospitals, the people sheltering in them, the doctors and medical staff working in them, the patients that are being treated. And as I said: International Humanitarian Laws is quite clear here. The hospital, the staff, the patients, and those that are seeking shelter: they are all protected except under very specific circumstances. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The Geneva conventions do not apply to terrorists. We are talking about the hospitals, the staff, the patients, and those seeking shelter in the hospital. > [@DrDeth](#): > > And the Red Cross. I’ve addressed that. Doctors, nurses, paramedics, patients, those seeking shelter: none of those people are terrorists. > [@DrDeth](#): > > It doesnt matter since I also cited the Red cross. I also cited the Red Cross. In case you missed it, here it is again for you: > [@ICRC](#): > > The rules of war are clear. Hospitals are specially protected facilities under international humanitarian law. The ICRC urgently calls for the immediate protection of all civilians, including humanitarian workers and medical personnel. This protection is not only a legal obligation but a moral imperative to preserve human life in these terrible times. Is there anything in that statement you disagree with? > [@DrDeth](#): > > And you have no counter cite. I provided a counter cite. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Saying a cite is bad without a counter cite is worthless. That isn’t how it works. For example…cite. > **[Star Trek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek)** > > The Next Generation > Reboot (Kelvin Timeline) > Streaming For those that don’t want to click: I’ve just provided a link to the Star Trek page on Wikipedia. If I were to claim that this cite proved that I am correct about the Geneva Conventions, do you really need to provide a counter-cite to claim that my cite is bad, is irrelevant, and doesn’t support my case? Because thats what it comes down too. Providing a cite doesn’t mean you win the argument. It means you can copy and paste a link. You might even be able to quote an out of context snippet. But you need to argue that the cite is both relevant here, and that it supports your argument. But you keep talking about terrorists, when I’m talking about hospitals, hospital staff, patients, and those taking shelter. And your cite doesn’t say _anything about them_. > [@DrDeth](#): > > They arent -they are terrorists. The patients in the hospital were all terrorists? Cite please. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3444 "2024-02-09T07:45:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Are Hamas the government of Gaza, or aren’t they? No, they are not. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ve already cited the _actual_ conventions. So, you have no counter cite. [https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1311&context=ils](https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1311&context=ils) _Neither all terrorist activities, nor all counter-terrorist military_ _operations, even when they have some international dimension, necessarily_ _constitute armed conflict between states. Terrorist movements themselves_ _generally have a non-state character. Therefore, military operations between a_ _state and such a movement, even if they involve the state’s armed forces acting outside its own territory, are not necessarily such as to bring them within the_ _scope of application of the full range of provisions regarding international_ _armed conflict in the 1949 Geneva Conventions and the 1977 Geneva_ _Protocol I.16…In many cases, the attributes and actions of a terrorist movement may not_ _come within the field of application even of the modest body of rules relating to_ _non-international armed conflict. Common Article 3 of the 1949 Geneva_ _Conventions is the core of these rules, but says little about the scope of_ _application. The principal subsequent agreement on non-international armed_ _conflict, the 1977 Geneva Protocol II, is based on the assumption that there is_ _a conflict between a state’s armed forces and organized armed groups which,_ _under responsible command, exercise control over a part of its territory, and_ _carry out sustained and concerted military operations. The protocol expressly_ _does not apply to situations of internal disturbance and tension, such as riots,_ _and isolated and sporadic acts of violence.17_ _• Since terrorist forces often have little regard for internationally agreed_ _rules of restraint, the resolve of the counter-terrorist forces to observe them_ _may also be weakened, given the low expectation of reciprocity and the_ _tendency of some part of the public under attack to overlook any breaches by_ _their own forces._ > **[rona\_terror.pdf](https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/other/rona_terror.pdf)** _While application of the international humanitarian law of non-international armed conflict to the War on Terror cannot be ruled out, it is, admittedly,_ _not an elegant fit. We can dismiss AP II from having any bearing on terrorist acts_ _or on the War on Terror because its application requires control of the High_ _Contracting Party’s territory by an organized armed group (Article 1.1). If the state_ _that is a party to the conflict is not a party to AP II (for example, the United States),_ _or if the organized armed group controls no territory, then AP II does not apply._ _Application of CA 3, on the other hand, does not require territorial control._ _What is more, the GCs enjoy virtually universal adherence. Still, humanitarian law_ _cannot be applied to any situation until the following criteria are addressed…A terrorist group can conceivably be a party to an armed conflict and a subject of humanitarian law, but the lack of commonly accepted definitions is a problem…While application of the international humanitarian law of non-international armed conflict to the War on Terror cannot be ruled out, it is, admittedly,_ _not an elegant fit. We can dismiss AP II from having any bearing on terrorist acts_ _or on the War on Terror because its application requires control of the High_ _Contracting Party’s territory by an organized armed group (Article 1.1). …_… _It is effective when properly implemented. Its very vitality and relevance_ _in the War on Terror stems not from any claim that it is capable of encompassing all of the exigencies of terrorism and the efforts to combat it. The strength of_ _humanitarian law lies, rather, in the fact that it is adequate to deal with such exigencies when they amount to armed conflict. There is little evidence that domestic and international laws and institutions of crime and punishment are not up_ _to the task when terrorism and the War on Terror do not rise to the level of armed_ _conflict. But there are powerful reasons to conclude that the application of_ _humanitarian law in those circumstances would do more harm than good._ So the Red Cross says that indeed terrorists do not fall within the Conventions, but perhaps they should. Maybe. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Is there anything in that statement you disagree with? [The protection of hospitals during armed conflicts: What the law says | ICRC](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says#:~:text=Specific%20protection%20of%20medical%20establishments,act%20harmful%20to%20the%20enemy%22). _Therefore, specific protection to which hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used by a party to the conflict to commit, outside their humanitarian functions, an “act harmful to the enemy”. ,When they are used to interfere directly or indirectly in military operations, and thereby cause harm to the enemy, the rationale for their specific protection is removed. This would be the case for example if a hospital is used as a base from which to launch an attack; as an observation post to transmit information of military value; as a weapons depot; as a center for liaison with fighting troops; or as a shelter for able-bodied combatants._ Which is what the IDF claims. So yes, i disagree with your quote as there are exceptions. > **[Is Hamas hiding in Gaza's main hospital? Israel's claim is now a focal point...](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-shifa-hospital-ce8fda9821a011a6cb6e4a3df5c90916)** > > Gaza’s Shifa Hospital has become the focus of a dayslong stalemate in Israel’s war against Hamas. Shifa is Gaza’s largest hospital. T_he army has claimed that Hamas is operating inside Shifa and underneath it in bunkers, some of which it says are accessible from the hospital itself. It also claims hundreds of Hamas fighters sought shelter at Shifa after the Oct. 7 massacre, in which at least 1,200 people in Israel were killed._ [Alleged military use of al-Shifa hospital - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_military_use_of_al-Shifa_hospital#:~:text=According%20to%20Israeli%20officials%2C%20Hamas,consistent%20with%20Hamas%20built%20tunnels). _According to Israeli officials, Hamas subsequently dug out the original basement, later adding new floors and connecting it as a hub within their existing tunnel system.[[25]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_military_use_of_al-Shifa_hospital#cite_note-25)[[26]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_military_use_of_al-Shifa_hospital#cite_note-26)_ _A France24 investigation concluded that the images and videos of the tunnels published by the IDF were consistent with Hamas built tunnels.[[27]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_military_use_of_al-Shifa_hospital#cite_note-27)_ Note that you used France24 as a cite yourself. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3445 "2024-02-09T07:46:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Again- Hamas attacked Israel- _Hamas_ is to blame for those hospitals, not Israel. This is not a response. “they started it” is a meaningless, irrelevant response to an accusation of attempted genocide. _Nothing_ would justify attempted genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3446 "2024-02-09T07:52:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Which is what the IDF claims. …yes. They have made those claims. I’m not denying that they have. But those claims have not been supported by the evidence. Not at Al Shifa. > **[Israeli Evidence of Hamas Command Center in al-Shifa Hospital Falls Short:...](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/israeli-hamas-command-center-al-shifa-hospital-falls-report-1234934784/)** > > A Washington Post investigation found no proof of a Hamas command center under al-Shifa Hospital following Israel’s attack on the medical complex.  Now there are twenty-three other hospitals that the IDF have shut down. (Al Shifa is back up and running, but is badly damaged and barely functional) It isn’t only about Al-Shifa. Al-Shifa was the hospital that made the most grandiose claims about: I mean they even did this! > **[Home to Hamas' Headquarters, This is an IDF 3D Diagram of the Shifa Hospital:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pTYHBZVgVQ%2F)** > > The Shifa Hospital is not only the largest hospital in Gaza but it also acts as the main headquarters for Hamas’ terrorist activity. Terrorism does not belon... But those claims didn’t pass muster. So how about all of the other hospitals? Nasser Hospital, currently under siege, the last major hospital still relatively functional: why is the IDF targeting them? What evidence have they presented? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3447 "2024-02-09T08:45:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, they are not. Well, thanks for demolishing the “But Palestinians voted for them!” argument, at least. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Note that you used France24 as a cite yourself. Are you confused as to who you’re replying to? ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3448 "2024-02-09T11:54:05Z")
Let me ask you this, Doc. Hamas’ leadership, who we all agree are bad, is currently in Qatar. Would you support Israel if they decided to bomb Qatar to get those guys? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3449 "2024-02-09T12:52:09Z")
Moderating: > [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > I’ve already cited the _actual_ conventions. > > So, you have no counter cite. This back-and-fourth is unproductive. You have each stated your case, and you have obviously come to different conclusions. The cites are available for other readers. This applies to you, too: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Take it down a notch. You already posted a substantive claim for each of these, which other posters can evaluate. Hammering repeatedly becomes attacking the poster. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3450 "2024-02-09T12:54:38Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > is currently in Qatar. I thought Qatar had told them it can’t protect them, and most of them have fled? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3451 "2024-02-09T12:56:17Z")
[Qatar and the US are currently in talks to expel them](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/qatar-and-us-working-to-expel-hamas-leaders-from-doha-saudi-media-outlet-reports/), anyway. Allegedly. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3452 "2024-02-09T14:23:11Z")
It’s mostly a hypothetical, but I’ll edit the question to say, support bombing of Qatar when Hamas was there. Or for a different hypothetical, I’ll ask the good doctor if he would have supported Israel is they had sent bombers to Paris and Rome to take out the Black September terrorist after Munich rather than assassin teams? No one here is denying that Hamas did a bad thing, and needs to be punished. But DrDeth seems to be saying that anything that Israel does in that effort is OK, and any resulting casualties are all Hamas’ fault. I am trying to ascertain if DrDeth thinks that there is no step that Israel could take that would be too far, and would flip the culpability of any resulting civilian casualties to Israel. Just as a for instance, since we seem to be citing World War II as precedent, during the Pacific Campaign the US chose to bypass certain islands held by the Japanese because capturing them was actually detrimental to the effort to win the war quickly. A choice was made. If Israel continues to bomb and shell Gaza, even as the return on their investment goes down, doesn’t it at some point become punitive? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3453 "2024-02-09T14:40:48Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Hamas have called for a ceasefire that would result in the release of all of the remaining hostages, yes. And which leaves them in power in Gaza. Which means it would be the same “ceasefire” that existed on October 6, 2023. I’m sure that even you understand why Israel does not consider that proposal an acceptable conclusion to these hostilities. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3454 "2024-02-09T15:26:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not according the the EU. and not the same thing. > > Hamas is internationally recognized as being a Terrorist org. I didn’t ask the EU, I asked you. Or is your entire position only what other people have stated? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=165) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=167)