# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 171
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2024, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3535 "2024-02-18T01:36:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Israel aren’t fighting a guerilla war. WOW. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Ant it isn’t about the hostages. Israel doesn’t give a damn about the hostages Again, WOW. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2024, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3536 "2024-02-18T01:48:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > WOW. …Uh huh. They aren’t targeting Hamas. They don’t even know how many Hamas they have killed. They are deliberately targeting and destroying civilian infrastructure. > [@Magiver](#): > > Again, WOW. Uh huh. From the Times of Israel: > [@](#): > > The Hostages and Missing Families Forum urged the public to join them at the main weekly rally at Tel Aviv’s Hostages Square at 7:30 p.m. under the slogan: “You’re abandoning them in Gaza,” with the relatives of dozens of those held in Gaza expected to “scream through powerful loudspeakers their desperate plea to the prime minister and security cabinet members.” > **[‘You’re abandoning them in Gaza’: Protesters to rally for hostages, demand...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/youre-abandoning-them-in-gaza-protesters-to-rally-for-hostages-call-for-elections/)** > > Relatives of many held in Gaza to 'scream through powerful loudspeakers'; anti-government demonstrations to be held nationwide after police refuse permit for Kaplan Street Its not like I’m the only person to understand this. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2024, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3537 "2024-02-18T01:54:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Its not like I’m the only person to understand this. You’re the person who doesn’t understand Israel is fighting a gorilla war. You should email the IDF and tell them where Hamas is fighting so they can defeat them and end the war. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2024, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3538 "2024-02-18T01:58:36Z")
Moderating: Repeating the same points over and over is not productive, and tends to become attacking the poster. Please drop it. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2024, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3539 "2024-02-18T01:58:50Z")
---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2024, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3540 "2024-02-18T02:10:10Z")
This topic was automatically opened after 10 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2024, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3541 "2024-02-18T19:30:07Z")
Getting really sick and tired of the ‘Hamas can stop this any time’ refrain. Hamas aren’t going to. Hamas are heartless murderers. Israel _claims_ not to be. But it’s the IDF murdering babies, grannies and the sick and starving, by the thousands. The IDF are now génocidaires. They _may_ not have been in November, but they are now. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3542 "2024-02-19T03:55:26Z")
…the latest from Nasser Hospital: First a statement from Tedros: > [@](#): > > Nasser hospital in [#Gaza](https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gaza?src=hashtag_click) is not functional anymore, after a weeklong siege followed by the ongoing raid. Both yesterday and the day before, the > > [@WHO](https://twitter.com/WHO) > > team was not permitted to enter the hospital to assess the conditions of the patients and critical medical needs, despite reaching the hospital compound to deliver fuel alongside partners. There are still about 200 patients in the hospital. At least 20 need to be urgently referred to other hospitals to receive health care; medical referral is every patient’s right. The cost of delays will be paid by patients’ lives. Access to the patients and hospital should be facilitated. > At least 70 healthcare workers have been arrested as well as dozens of immobile patients, who were taken away on stretchers. Oxygen shortages have so far resulted in seven deaths. Testimony from Dr Moghrabi who was forced to leave the hospital. He reports that his colleagues were beaten, that the parts of Khan Yunis he walked through had been flattened, and that there were bodies lying on the ground everywhere. When we get the final death toll its going to be so much higher than the current estimates. > The LA Times published a report from American doctor Irfan Galaria a couple of days ago titled " I’m an American doctor who went to Gaza. What I saw wasn’t war — it was annihilation." > [@](#): > > I have worked in other war zones. But what I witnessed during the next 10 days in Gaza was not war — it was annihilation. > > … > > Entering southern Gaza on Jan. 29, where many have fled from the north, felt like the first pages of a dystopian novel. Our ears were numb with the constant humming of what I was told were the surveillance drones that circled constantly. Our noses were consumed with the stench of 1 million displaced humans living in close proximity without adequate sanitation. > > … > > We had limited access to critical medical equipment: We performed amputations of arms and legs daily, using a Gigli saw, a Civil War-era tool, essentially a segment of barbed wire. > > … > > I stopped keeping track of how many new orphans I had operated on. After surgery they would be filed somewhere in the hospital, I’m unsure of who will take care of them or how they will survive. On one occasion, **a handful of children, all about ages 5 to 8, were carried to the emergency room by their parents. All had single sniper shots to the head.** These families were returning to their homes in Khan Yunis, about 2.5 miles away from the hospital, after Israeli tanks had withdrawn. But the snipers apparently stayed behind. None of these children survived. > **[Opinion: I'm an American doctor who went to Gaza. What I saw wasn't war — it...](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-02-16/rafah-gaza-hospitals-surgery-israel-bombing-ground-offensive-children)** > > As a surgeon, I volunteered at a Gaza hospital. The conditions were unthinkable. With a ground offensive in Rafah, people have nowhere to go. This Twitter account shares footage that was aired on Israeli TV that shows how IDF soldiers treat detainees that have been captured. Everyone is assumed to be Hamas. > There is so much footage out there, primarily filmed by soldiers themselves, of detainees. And every detainee released tells the same story of routine humiliation, beatings, and sometimes torture. More video from the same documentary. "“Human animals, nothing less. Most of them of course at first deny any involvement, through certain tools and means, we manage to get the confessions out of them.” They literally aren’t even trying to hide what they are doing. > > > B.M. @ireallyhateyou Here is a video of a very loud American yelling “WOW!” as the IDF blow up more buildings in Kahn Yunis. > They aren’t targeting tunnels. The evidence is more than clear at this point. Video after video of the IDF blowing up civilian infrastructure with controlled demolitions, often to cheers and laughter. Another video from a documentary aired on Channel 14: > > It shows the now destroyed Turkish Hospital: yet another war crime. And it unveils what appears to be a key part in the post war plans: the construction of the “Netzarim Corridor” to split the north and the south. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3543 "2024-02-19T04:56:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And it unveils what appears to be a key part in the post war plans: the construction of the “Netzarim Corridor” to split the north and the south. You’d think that wouldn’t be necessary if they were planning to genocide everybody. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3544 "2024-02-19T05:02:18Z")
As if nobody ever planned infrastructure to support a genocide… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3545 "2024-02-19T05:04:41Z")
Yeah, and the Nazis never built a bridge over Chłodna Street, either. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3546 "2024-02-19T05:47:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You’d think that wouldn’t be necessary if they were planning to genocide everybody. …probably because genocide doesn’t mean what you think it means. They didn’t try to kill everyone during the Bosnian genocide after all…because that isn’t what genocide means. If you haven’t already, I suggest you read the South African submission to the International Court of Justice, which makes the case Israel’s conduct here is both “genocidal in nature” and “in manifest violation of the Genocide Convention.” It should clear up any confusion you may have. > **[192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf](https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2024/01/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf)** ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3547 "2024-02-19T05:54:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …probably because genocide doesn’t mean what you think it means. They didn’t try to kill everyone during the Bosnian genocide after all…because that isn’t what genocide means. > **[Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/genocide)** > > The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years! > [@](#): > > 1. The deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. The war in Gaza is neither deliberate, systematic, or an extermination. > [@](#): > > If you haven’t already, I suggest you read the South African submission to the International Court of Justice I couldn’t care less about the opinion of either. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3548 "2024-02-19T05:59:11Z")
Dictionaries don’t define genocide. International law does. Although Gaza is all 3 of those things you listed, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3549 "2024-02-19T06:08:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > International law does. There’s no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3550 "2024-02-19T06:12:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The war in Gaza is neither deliberate, systematic, or an extermination. …I mean, its very deliberate, its systematic, there is plenty of extermination going on, and the thing is I’ve just cited the South African submission to the International Court of Justice that argues that Israel is in manifest violation of the Genocide Convention. And thats a bit more comprehensive than a dictionary definition found in a google search. So if you really want to have a serious discussion then: > [@Smapti](#): > > I couldn’t care less about the opinion of either. You really should read the submission. Because that’s where the case for genocide has been made. And the case was convincing enough that the majority of judges ordered the following interim provisional measures: > [@Lawfare](#): > > First, the court required Israel to take all measures within its power to prevent the commission of all acts constituting the physical elements of genocide; that is, killing members of the group, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberating inflicting conditions of life on the group calculated to bring about its physical destruction, and imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group, in relation to Palestinians in Gaza. > > … > > Second, the court ordered Israel to ensure with immediate effect that its military does not commit any of the genocidal acts listed in the first measure, underscoring the responsibility of the state for all acts of the Israel Defense Forces. > > … > > Third, Israel should prevent and punish direct and public incitement to commit genocide. > **[The International Court of Justice's Interim Measures to Prevent Genocide in...](https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/the-international-court-of-justice's-interim-measures-to-prevent-genocide-in-gaza)** > > The court has in effect ordered what the U.S. has been pushing for all along. The U.S. should now support compliance. As far as I’m concerned, this isn’t up for debate any more. The fact that Israel and their allies have pretty much had the same reaction as you to the interim rulings doesn’t mean much. The evidence is clear. This is a genocide. The goal is to make life almost impossible for Palestinians to live in Gaza. Its why people are now dying of starvation. Why they’ve broken the healthcare system, assassinated journalists and doctors and academics. Why they are literally cutting off the north from the south, making it even more difficult, if not impossible shortly, to get aid through to the area. With no sign of the siege being lifted, and with an attack on Rafah still looming, and with this all to continue for months at least, we are looking at hundreds of thousands of deaths. This is on the cards. We’ve passed the point of no return. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3551 "2024-02-19T06:15:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And the case was convincing enough that the majority of judges Where I come from we don’t declare people guilty of crimes on the basis of what “a majority of judges” think, which is yet another reason the ICC is an illegitimate body. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This is a genocide. The goal is to make life almost impossible for Palestinians to live in Gaza. Its why people are now dying of starvation. Why they’ve broken the healthcare system, assassinated journalists and doctors and academics. Why they are literally cutting off the north from the south, making it even more difficult, if not impossible shortly, to get aid through to the area. The goal is to defeat Hamas. The rest of what you describe is simply what war looks like. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > With no sign of the siege being lifted, and with an attack on Rafah still looming, and with this all to continue for months at least, we are looking at hundreds of thousands of deaths. If this is true, then Hamas should surrender. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3552 "2024-02-19T06:21:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > International law does. > > There’s no such thing. A bit disingenuous, because whether you recognize it as authoritative or not, _The Convention On The Prevention And Punishment Of The Crime Of Genocide_ is as real as (and certainly _no less_ authoritative than) [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com). Why should we prefer your selected definition more than the Convention’s? And more to the point, if your beef really is over the existence or force of “international law,” why quibble over definitions at all? I mean, heck, if a nation does choose to engage in straight up systemic extermination within the [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) definition of genocide, who cares? After all, international law isn’t real, right? Surely that’s equally true whatever definition of “genocide” you prefer? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3553 "2024-02-19T06:30:28Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I mean, heck, if a nation does choose to engage in straight up systemic extermination within the [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) definition of genocide, who cares? After all, international law isn’t real, right? Surely that’s equally true whatever definition of “genocide” you prefer? If South Africa and the ICC really believe Israel is committing genocide, then they should declare war on it, invade, and force its government to surrender to them. That is how international policy is conducted when diplomacy is ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3554 "2024-02-19T06:33:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If South Africa and the ICC really believe Israel is committing genocide, then they should declare war on it, invade, and force its government to surrender to them. That is how international policy is conducted when diplomacy is ineffective. Quoted for posterity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=170) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=172)