# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 172
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3555 "2024-02-19T06:40:14Z")
> [@Carl von Clausewitz](#): > > War is the continuation of policy with other means. You didn’t think the Allies ended the Holocaust by suing Hitler, did you? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3556 "2024-02-19T06:44:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Where I come from we don’t declare people guilty of crimes on the basis of what “a majority of judges” …yeah, but thats not how the International Court of Justice works. There is no “declaring people guilty.” Not at this stage. They’ve made interim provisional measures at this stage, nothing more. > [@Smapti](#): > > which is yet another reason the ICC is an illegitimate body. As this has _absolutely nothing to do with the ICC_, our opinions here don’t really matter. > [@Smapti](#): > > The goal is to defeat Hamas. Its a shame that the tactics and strategies Israel have adopted haven’t targeted Hamas, have instead targeted Palestinian civilians and infrastructure, and we don’t actually really know if they’ve done any damage to Hamas at all. > [@Smapti](#): > > The rest of what you describe is simply what war looks like. But this isn’t what war looks like. This is what a _genocide_ looks like. Targeting hospitals is a warcrime. Forced migration to what is effectively a concentration camp is a warcrime. Using starvation as a weapon is a warcrime. Humiliation, beatings and torture of detainees is a warcrime. Its warcrime after warcrime. Its a _slaughter_. > [@Smapti](#): > > If this is true, then Hamas should surrender. It wouldn’t matter. For starters: it doesn’t matter if Hamas surrenders or not. Collective punishment against Palestinian civilians is against the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian Law. Secondly: I doubt Israel would stop anyway. There is every indication that they don’t really care about Hamas, they don’t care about the hostages, they will continue this operation until they are finished. But we really are beyond this talking point. Israel are committing warcrimes on a daily basis. And “but Hamas” doesn’t work any more. What Israel has done over the last 130 odd days overshadows the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. This will be remembered in the history books as the Gaza Genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3557 "2024-02-19T07:11:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …yeah, but thats not how the International Court of Justice works. It doesn’t work, because international law is a polite fiction, it has no power to enforce its decisions, and, as you’ve already noted, Israel will ignore whatever they decide anyway. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > As this has _absolutely nothing to do with the ICC_ You’re the one who keeps bringing them up as if their opinion meant something, not I. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > a shame that the tactics and strategies Israel have adopted haven’t targeted Hamas, have instead targeted Palestinian civilians and infrastructure, Hamas deliberately embeds itself in civilian areas because dead Palestinian civilians are useful to them as a propaganda tool. This has been explained a thousand times and you continue to ignore it. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > we don’t actually really know if they’ve done any damage to Hamas at all. How many Israeli babies has Hamas decapitated since 10/8? Zero, you say? Then the mission is a success thus far. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But this isn’t what war looks like. You’re half-right. Most wars throughout history have had a lot more civilian casualties. The degree to which Israel has restrained itself is quite impressive. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This is what a _genocide_ looks like. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, the war would have ended by now. It took them less than a week to conquer Gaza 60 years ago, and that was before they had nukes. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Collective punishment against Palestinian civilians is against the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian Law. War is not a punishment. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > , they don’t care about the hostages False and bordering on libelous. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What Israel has done over the last 130 odd days overshadows the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th. As it should. Overwheming force is how you win wars. You don’t just kill one of theirs for every one of yours and call it even. You make sure the enemy can never lay a finger on yours again. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This will be remembered in the history books as the Gaza Genocide. Tell me that twenty years from now when the Republic of Gaza has the highest standard of living in the Arab world and its people live free of tyranny thanks to the Israelis that gave their lives to liberate them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3558 "2024-02-19T08:02:12Z")
I’m not going to address such a ridiculous fact-free assertion in a non-Pit forum. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3559 "2024-02-19T08:04:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It doesn’t work, because international law is a polite fiction, it has no power to enforce its decisions, and, as you’ve already noted, Israel will ignore whatever they decide anyway. …we are talking about the institutions and the power structures that the West have created, the so-called “rules based order.” That they are failing to hold Israel to account is by design. And while America has been declining in the world as “the beacon of hope” and the “land of the free”, what we’ve witnessed here will only accelerate the decline. America and Canada and the UK and much of Europe and even my own country have decided to stand side-by-side in defence of a nation clearly committing genocide. People will no longer look to America for leadership. Israel will no longer be seen as "the only democracy in the Middle East. > [@Smapti](#): > > You’re the one who keeps bringing them up as if their opinion meant something, not I. I’ve been talking about the International Court of Justice. You are talking about the International Criminal Court. They are _two very different things_. Understanding that is kinda crucial to understanding what the interim measures are all about. > [@Smapti](#): > > Hamas deliberately embeds itself in civilian areas because dead Palestinian civilians are useful to them as a propaganda tool. I’m sorry, but why would you expect anyone to believe this after everything we’ve seen? The line “Hamas deliberately embeds itself in civilian areas” _is_ the propaganda. I’ve asked over and over again how many Hamas have been killed since the start of this “war.” And the answer is either :: shrugs shoulders :: or someone points to a ratio that suspiciously almost matches the Hamas Ministry of Health numbers for all military-aged men killed so far in the conflict. Because as far as Israel is concerned…everybody is Hamas. The leadership have said this over and over again, you can read it in the SA submission to the ICJ. Or you can watch them admit it in the videos I posted today. The quote again from the Channel 14 documentary if you missed it: “Human animals, nothing less. Most of them of course at first deny any involvement, through certain tools and means, we manage to get the confessions out of them.” > [@Smapti](#): > > This has been explained a thousand times and you continue to ignore it. When you can actually prove it I’ll take the talking point seriously. > [@Smapti](#): > > How many Israeli babies has Hamas decapitated since 10/8? Zero, you say? Then the mission is a success thus far. How many babies did Hamas decapitate on 10/7? According to all reports, zero. Hamas did kill 33 children that day. That was horrific, an atrocity, a warcrime. The IDF have killed an estimated 14,031 children since the start 10/8, including those that are still missing under the rubble. That doesn’t include how many have died of starvation, disease and infection. This is horrific, an atrocity, a warcrime. > [@Smapti](#): > > You’re half-right. Most wars throughout history have had a lot more civilian casualties. The degree to which Israel has restrained itself is quite impressive. No, I’m just right. We’ve had reports from humanitarian agencies on the ground that have had experience in war zones around the world for decades, and absolutely none of them would agree with the assertion that “the restraint from Israel has been impressive.” All of them agree this is one of the worst warzones they have ever seen. The scale of civilian infrastructure damage is off the scale. The deliberate targeting of journalists and academics, unprecedented. Gaza has been described as a “graveyard for children.” Outside of Israeli propaganda, there is nothing to support the assertion “the degree to which Israel has restrained itself is quite impressive.” > [@Smapti](#): > > If Israel wanted to commit genocide, the war would have ended by now. It took them less than a week to conquer Gaza 60 years ago, and that was before they had nukes. Again: you don’t seem to understand what genocide means. The SA submission to the ICJ and the decision from the ICJ lays this all out. The Bosnian genocide involved only an estimated 8000 deaths. That didn’t make it any less of a genocide. We’ve already eclipsed that here. > [@Smapti](#): > > War is not a punishment. Starving the civilian population to force Hamas to surrender is a punishment, and a warcrime. > [@Smapti](#): > > False and bordering on libelous. What are they going to do: sue me? > [@Smapti](#): > > As it should. Overwheming force is how you win wars. You don’t just kill one of theirs for every one of yours and call it even. You make sure the enemy can never lay a finger on yours again. Its not a war. Its a genocide. Because collectively most nations, including Israel, have agreed on a framework on _how wars should work_. The Geneva Conventions. International Humanitarian Law. That means you don’t deliberately target civilians. That means you don’t shut down the healthcare system. That means you don’t use starvation as a weapon. That means you don’t use humiliation, beatings and torture on your detainees. Because it isn’t just about “overwhelming force.” Its about the _warcrimes_. And if Israel and the United States have declared that warcrimes don’t mean anything, and that they can conduct wars anyway they want, that probably won’t matter much more in _this_ conflict. But it changes the way wars will be waged against Israel and US aligned countries in the future. What Isreal and the US have done here is inherently authoritarian, inherently fascist, they’ve signalled to the world that “the rules-based order” doesn’t apply to them. The rest of the world will not forget this. > [@Smapti](#): > > Tell me that twenty years from now when the Republic of Gaza has the highest standard of living in the Arab world and its people live free of tyranny thanks to the Israelis that gave their lives to liberate them. I note that you didn’t use the word “Palestinians” here at all. And that would be because Israel will kill hundreds of thousands of them before the war is over, drive much of the rest of them over the borders or “forced migrations”, and those that remain won’t be living in “the highest standard in the Arab world”, but will be treated like third-class citizens, regularly arrested and beaten, subject to increased surveillance, living in poverty and ghettos, much as many of them did before October 7th happened. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3560 "2024-02-19T08:13:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [Quote=Carl von Clausewitz] > War is the continuation of policy with other means. [/quote] Maybe you’d like to put the trite quote [in its full context](https://www.clausewitzstudies.org/mobile/Works.htm#Character)? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3561 "2024-02-19T08:18:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’ve been talking about the International Court of Justice. > > You are talking about the International Criminal Court. > > They are _two very different things_. Both of 'em together and five bucks will buy you a cup of coffee. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m sorry, but why would you expect anyone to believe this after everything we’ve seen? Because of everything we’ve seen. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The line “Hamas deliberately embeds itself in civilian areas” _is_ the propaganda So Hamas is fighting out of where then, exactly? Tell me where all these Hamasniks who aren’t embedded in the civilian population are and who they’re fighting if not Israel. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’ve asked over and over again how many Hamas have been killed since the start of this “war.” And the answer is either :: shrugs shoulders :: or someone points to a ratio that suspiciously almost matches the Hamas Ministry of Health numbers for all military-aged men killed so far in the conflict. War isn’t a video game. There isn’t a score ticker that goes up by one every time a terrorist dies. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > How many babies did Hamas decapitate on 10/7? > > According to all reports, zero. “All reports”, you say? > **[Israeli officer says he found baby beheaded in Hamas attack](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231027-israeli-officer-says-he-found-baby-beheaded-in-hamas-attack)** > > A senior Israeli army officer said Friday that he had found the body of a decapitated baby in one of the kibbutz communities attacked by Hamas on October 7. > **[PolitiFact - Israel-Hamas war: What we know about ‘beheaded babies’](https://www.politifact.com/article/2023/nov/21/israel-hamas-war-what-we-know-about-beheaded-babie/)** > > Editor’s note: This story contains references and links to graphic images and videos. The story is a revised version of > **[Baseless claim that Israeli media probe found no babies beheaded by Hamas |...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/31/post-falsely-claims-newspaper-reported-no-babies-beheaded-hamas-israel-fact-check/71394076007/)** > > The Haaretz newspaper called the claims baseless. It reported in October that the bodies of decapitated babies had been found after the attacks. > **[Photos of babies being burnt, decapitated confirmed](https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-767951)** > > The photos were shown to US Secretary of State Antony Blinken during his visit to Israel on Thursday. > **[I wish that it wasn't true: War correspondent stands by report of beheadings...](https://www.wionews.com/world/horrible-horrible-images-war-correspondent-stands-by-report-of-beheadings-of-israeli-babies-645754)** > > (Trigger warning: Some readers may find details of this report disturbing. Discretion is advised) > > The international war correspondent who initially broke the story of Hamas' alleged beheading of Israeli children is standing by her... [https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1698319384-i-carried-beheaded-baby-in-my-hands-says-kibbutz-be-eri-rescuer](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1698319384-i-carried-beheaded-baby-in-my-hands-says-kibbutz-be-eri-rescuer) > **[Israeli surgeon says she's witnessed beheaded babies, cut off limbs | Dan...](https://www.newsnationnow.com/video/israeli-surgeon-says-shes-witnessed-beheaded-babies-cut-off-limbs-dan-abrams-live/9119781/)** > > Israeli oral surgeon Dr. Naama Samet Rubinstein tells host Dan Abrams that she's seen babies who were beheaded and people whose limbs were cut off by Hamas."I've seen it with my eyes. … It was unbelievable," she says. > > \#DanAbramsLive > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Hamas did kill 33 children that day. That was horrific, an atrocity, a warcrime. Then Israel is fully justified in destroying them by whatever means necessary. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Starving the civilian population to force Hamas to surrender is a punishment, and a warcrime. Hamas is starving the civilian population, not Israel. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because collectively most nations, including Israel, have agreed on a framework on _how wars should work_. The Geneva Conventions. International Humanitarian Law. And yet noone was prosecuted for Hiroshima. It’s almost as if the rules of war have always been a fiction used by winners to justify doing whatever they want to the losers. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I note that you didn’t use the word “Palestinians” here at all. I used “Arab”. Are the Palestinians suddenly no longer Arabs? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3562 "2024-02-19T08:19:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Hamas deliberately embeds itself in civilian areas So does the IDF. > [@Smapti](#): > > How many Israeli babies has Hamas decapitated since 10/8? Exactly the same number as the number they decapitated _on_ 7 October. > [@Smapti](#): > > If Israel wanted to commit genocide, the war would have ended by now The Nazis could just have bombed the Warsaw Ghetto right away, too… > [@Smapti](#): > > War is not a punishment. It can be. > [@Smapti](#): > > False and bordering on libelous. If they cared about them, they wouldn’t shoot them while they’re coming back home under a white flag. > [@Smapti](#): > > You don’t just kill one of theirs for every one of yours and call it even. The grannies and the babies are “theirs”, how? You’re advocating collective punishment. Just _openly_ advocating war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3563 "2024-02-19T08:22:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The grannies and the babies are “theirs”, how? > > You’re advocating collective punishment. Just _openly_ advocating war crimes. Amazing. You managed to read the exact opposite meaning of the words I typed. I was stating that the purpose of war is not petty vengeance. I may as well have taken your statement that > [@MrDibble](#): > > The Nazis could just have bombed the Warsaw Ghetto right away, too… And said “Oh, you _want_ Nazis to bomb Jews?” > [@MrDibble](#): > > Maybe you’d like to put the trite quote [in its full context](https://www.clausewitzstudies.org/mobile/Works.htm#Character)? Sure. > [@Carl von Clausewitz](#): > > We see, therefore, that War is not merely a political act, but also a real political instrument, a continuation of political commerce, a carrying out of the same by other means. All beyond this which is strictly peculiar to War relates merely to the peculiar nature of the means which it uses. That the tendencies and views of policy shall not be incompatible with these means, the Art of War in general and the Commander in each particular case may demand, and this claim is truly not a trifling one. But however powerfully this may react on political views in particular cases, still it must always be regarded as only a modification of them; for the political view is the object, War is the means, and the means must always include the object in our conception. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3564 "2024-02-19T08:30:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Amazing. You managed to read the exact opposite meaning of the words I typed. Sorry, what “theirs” was the “overwhelming force” supposed to be about, then? Not actual Hamas troops, because as has been shown, Israeli snipers has a piss-poor record at distinguishing those from grannies and 5-year old kids. So one can only assume you were talking about killing Gazan civilians in this show of “overwhelming force” > [@Smapti](#): > > I was stating that the purpose of war is not petty vengeance. By pointing to examples of petty vengeance and saying “this is realpolitik”. Yeah, not buying that, thanks. > [@Smapti](#): > > And said “Oh, you _want_ Nazis to bomb Jews?” Note the difference between “_could_ of” and “you don’t just kill[…]you make sure”. One is discussing what might have happened, one is discussing what should happen. False equivalency. > [@Smapti](#): > > Sure. Expanding the trite quote to a full paragraph is not the full context. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3565 "2024-02-19T08:32:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “All reports”, you say? All _reliable_ sources. Like, say, the Israeli government’s own statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3566 "2024-02-19T08:35:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So one can only assume you were talking about killing Gazan civilians in this show of “overwhelming force” One would assume wrongly. “They” is Hamas, not the Palestinian people. Israel’s war is against the former, not the latter. > [@MrDibble](#): > > All _reliable_ sources. Special pleading. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3567 "2024-02-19T08:38:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > One would assume wrongly. “They” is Hamas, not the Palestinian people. Israel’s war is against the former, not the latter. It’s the latter they’re killing. So their war is against them too. > [@Smapti](#): > > Special pleading. It’s better to be citing proven liars like Golan Vach? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3568 "2024-02-19T08:39:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s the latter they’re killing. Not by design or intent. Those civilians who have died have done so as unfortunate collateral damage and their blood is on Hamas’ hands. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3569 "2024-02-19T08:43:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Not by design or intent. Bullshit. You don’t snipe a granny under a white flag and say it’s not intentional. You can’t snipe a five year old and say it’s not intentional. > [@Smapti](#): > > Those civilians who have died have done so as unfortunate collateral damage and their blood is on Hamas’ hands. Absolutely not. Sniper fire is not “collateral damage”. Neither is death by starvation and disease. The IDF’s hands are absolutely bloody in this. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3570 "2024-02-19T08:48:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You don’t snipe a granny under a white flag and say it’s not intentional. You can’t snipe a five year old and say it’s not intentional. A handful of overzealous snipers does not a genocide make any more than the Vietnam war was a genocide because of Lt. William Calley. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Neither is death by starvation and disease. That’s war. Was anyone prosecuted for the wartime famines in Germany and Japan? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3571 "2024-02-19T08:53:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I used “Arab”. Are the Palestinians suddenly no longer Arabs? It’s complicated, but no. > Like in other “Arabized” Arab nations, the Arab identity of Palestinians, largely based on linguistic and cultural affiliation, is independent of the existence of any actual Arabian origins. > [Link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#Origins) Are Egyptians Arabs? Lebanese? Libyans? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3572 "2024-02-19T08:53:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A handful of overzealous snipers does not a genocide make Moving the goalpost from what is and isn’t intentional, noted. And it’s not a handful. It’s a _constant stream_ of grannies and kids and journalists… every day, more and more. > [@Smapti](#): > > That’s war. That’s bullshit. > [@Smapti](#): > > Was anyone prosecuted for the wartime famines in Germany and Japan? You mean the ones that happened _before_ we had international law on genocide? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3573 "2024-02-19T08:54:50Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > Are Egyptians Arabs? Lebanese? Libyans? AFAIK the majority of the population in those places consider themselves to be Arab. For clarity’s sake, allow me to state that in the post that was being referred to I was specifically referring to the Palestinian people as those whose quality of life will be improved in the long run once Israel wins this war. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3574 "2024-02-19T08:55:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You mean the ones that happened _before_ we had international law on genocide? The Korean War’s been ongoing since then. Has anyone at the United Nations Command been prosecuted for the famine being inflicted on the people of North Korea? Of course not, because _winners don’t get prosecuted for war crimes_. If there were a true system of international law capable of dispensing justice, that wouldn’t be the case. War crimes is what the winner calls it when they’ve won the war but want to justify continuing to hurt their enemy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=171) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=173)