# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 175
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3615 "2024-02-19T17:56:53Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > So my question is let’s suppose that a US led coalition did decide that the Netanyahu government had gone too far, and the bombing on started tonight. Just for fun, let’s also say that the US had a way of over riding the Iron Dome, and so within a few days there were 50,000 dead Israeli civilians. I am assuming you would still support Israel, but would you view those bombings as a genocidal attack? And if the International court said it was genocide would you consider that a positive thing for Israel or just meaningless blather? Meaningless blather, I guess, if — like the one mentioned upthread — it’s one of those decisions that “the court has no way to enforce”, and things just keep on keeping on. But I guess my real issue with your hypothetical is that I genuinely don’t see the US _doing_ that. I know, I know, don’t fight the hypothetical; but I don’t really see the US saying “you’ve gone too far, and the bombing starts tonight.” I can, with some effort, see the US helpfully explaining to Israel, ‘hey, listen: _if_ you keep this up, _then_ we’ll start bombing’ — and, for that matter, it takes no effort to imagine the US instead continuing to act as it, well, has — but, deep down, I kind of figured that this is exactly the sort of situation where the US would use the threat of force before resorting to the use of force (because that’d make sense) to thereby give Israel a chance to make a decision based on its best interests (which would also make sense). Granted, you can contrive a hypothetical where that’s not the case, but it just seems unrealistic to the point of being unhelpful. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3616 "2024-02-19T18:16:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I am thankful that on this board, you appear to be alone in this advocacy of genocide. Sadly, I don’t think **TOWP** is alone in his advocacy; he’s just the only one who has admitted it. Several others are fully supportive of all the same acts, they just balk at calling it genocide. Still, I’m gobsmacked by this admission. Hooray for honesty, I guess. 😢 ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3617 "2024-02-19T22:02:35Z")
I was trying to match Israel’s automatic, do not pass Go response after 10/7. You are correct that it is highly unlikely that the US would launch an attack with no previous threat. In any case, you answered my one question, which is that you wouldn’t be calling for an International court to do anything. I was trying to clarify if you were of a mindset that Israel is a special case deserving a different internationally protected status than say Gaza, or to make it less in your face, let’s say Vatican City. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3618 "2024-02-19T23:32:00Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Possibly you should explain to them, slowly and patiently, that you’re going to ask if they approve of killing members of such a group to destroy such a group _in whole or in part._ Then ask them whether they approve of killing members of such a group to destroy that group _in whole_ — no? Well, okay, thanks; and now, to continue on to the thrilling conclusion — _“in part?”_ …its incredibly difficult to parse what you are saying. Who is this “them” you are talking about? Why would I be explaining anything to them? > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Maybe you’ll find that, say, half of the people you’re speaking with will happen to approve; sure, maybe it’ll only be three out of ten, but maybe it’ll be seven; or, granted, maybe zero or one, but maybe nine or ten? People that support what Israel is doing almost overwhelmingly are not calling this a genocide. Most absolutely bristle at the suggestion. You are different. You not only concede that yes, this is a genocide, but it is a genocide you wholeheartedly support. I’ve honestly never interacted with someone who admits they support a genocide. Which is why I wanted to be absolutely certain I wasn’t misrepresenting your words. But you’ve still got an opportunity to retract here, if you want. I won’t hold it against you. Because I suggested you read the _entirety_ of South Africa’s submission to the International Court of Justice. Now I suggested that because it was important to not only read what the definition said, but how the way Israel have chosen to conduct this war fit the _definition_. It looks like you read the definition and stopped. You should go back and read the rest. And after reading it you still support the genocide of the Palestinian people, well then, as TroutMan says, thanks for your honesty. I’ll remember that for any future conversations, because this context will be important. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2024, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3619 "2024-02-19T23:47:07Z")
Let’s see if anything comes out of this: US proposes UN Security Council oppose Rafah assault, back temporary Gaza ceasefire [https://www.reuters.com/world/us-proposes-un-resolution-supporting-temporary-ceasefire-gaza-2024-02-19/](https://www.reuters.com/world/us-proposes-un-resolution-supporting-temporary-ceasefire-gaza-2024-02-19/) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3620 "2024-02-20T00:01:29Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …its incredibly difficult to parse what you are saying. > > Who is this “them” you are talking about? Why would I be explaining anything to them? I’m not sure what’s so difficult to parse; I’d copy-and-pasted the one sentence I was replying to. You said: “I don’t think I’ve ever spoken to anyone who approves of the genocide of a group of people before.” I suggest that, when you’re speaking to people about this matter, you simply read them (that’s The People You’re Speaking With) the definition you’re using — right down to the ‘in whole or in part’ bit — and ask if they (The People You’re Speaking With approve of doing so “in whole”, and if they (The People You’re Speaking With) approve of doing so “in part”. > [@](#): > > People that support what Israel is doing almost overwhelmingly are not calling this a genocide. Most absolutely bristle at the suggestion. > > You are different. I read the definition you’re using; I can’t see any way to argue that it, as written, doesn’t apply. > [@](#): > > But you’ve still got an opportunity to retract here, if you want. I won’t hold it against you. As far as I can tell, you _should_ hold that against me. If anyone reads that definition, and says with a straight face that it doesn’t encompass what Israel is doing, I figure I’d hold it against _them,_ because that’s pretty clearly what it spells out. > [@](#): > > It looks like you read the definition and stopped. You should go back and read the rest. I read the definition because doing so let me answer the question I’d been asked; I’ll read the rest out of courtesy, but I honestly don’t know what use you think it’ll be. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3621 "2024-02-20T00:17:16Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I suggest that, when you’re speaking to people about this matter, you simply read them (that’s The People You’re Speaking With) the definition you’re using — right down to the ‘in whole or in part’ bit — and ask if they (The People You’re Speaking With approve of doing so “in whole”, and if they (The People You’re Speaking With) approve of doing so “in part”. …why on earth would I do that? I’m speaking to people here. I’ve spoken to people in this thread for _months_. You are the only person who has openly supported genocide. I don’t think you will get anyone here rallying to your cause. But let’s open the floor. Is there anyone else here that supports the genocide of the Palestinian people? > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I read the definition you’re using; I can’t see any way to argue that it, as written, doesn’t apply. But there’s two parts to the equation. Firstly, do you agree with the definition? Secondly, do you support the genocide? People who agree with the definition by and large do not support the genocide. People who disagree that Israels actions fit the definition also _do not_ support the genocide of the Palestinian people. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > As far as I can tell, you _should_ hold that against me. If anyone reads that definition, and says with a straight face that it doesn’t encompass what Israel is doing, I figure I’d hold it against _them,_ because that’s pretty clearly what it spells out. I mean, if you openly support the deliberate starvation of millions of people, the destruction of the healthcare system, the forced relocation of 1.7 million people, the destruction of heritage sites and civilian infrastructure, routine humiliation-beatings-torture of Palestinian detainees, the slaughter of over 14 thousand Palestinian children, then sure. I’ll hold that against you. But I want to be crystal clear that this is what you mean. Because as I said: it appears that you read the definition in the submission, then stopped there. Have you read the rest yet? Do you support it? > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I read the definition because doing so let me answer the question I’d been asked; I’ll read the rest out of courtesy, but I honestly don’t know what use you think it’ll be. I doubt it will be any use to you. But it will be helpful for everyone else to have clarity. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3622 "2024-02-20T00:20:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > gorilla ?.. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3623 "2024-02-20T01:22:03Z")
…the footage here, of the way that Palestinian prisoners are being treated in detention, are simply _horrific_. All taken from the very same documentary shared above. Being treated worse than _animals_. > I’m not sure how anyone could defend this. They are claiming that these are only the “terrorists”, but we know from the testimony and from physical evidence from released detainees that this is how they treated _everyone_. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3624 "2024-02-20T01:28:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m not sure how anyone could defend this. You may not have heard, but there’s a war going on. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3625 "2024-02-20T01:32:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You may not have heard, but there’s a war going on. …I’ve heard. Are you defending this? No need to be cryptic. Yes or no would be fine. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3626 "2024-02-20T01:54:47Z")
You are correct, there is a war going on. So that means you are cool with any member of the IDF being killed because that is what happens in war, right? And since there is a war going on now, any Israeli civilian deaths happening after 10/7 should be viewed as merely collateral damage, and just the cost of doing business. I don’t want to hear otherwise from you if there are any successful Hamas attacks in Israel. Both teams get the ball in overtime. You guys are right, being a cold blooded pragmatist about all of this really removes the stress. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3627 "2024-02-20T01:55:46Z")
I get that you’re surprised that TOWP is okay with genocide, and maybe Smapti is as well–but, without getting personal, I’m not surprised. Conversation between them and those who _aren’t_ okay with genocide may not prove productive. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3628 "2024-02-20T02:11:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Conversation between them and those who _aren’t_ okay with genocide may not prove productive. …true. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3629 "2024-02-20T02:37:32Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > So that means you are cool with any member of the IDF being killed because that is what happens in war, right? > > And since there is a war going on now, any Israeli civilian deaths happening after 10/7 should be viewed as merely collateral damage, and just the cost of doing business. Of course not. They’re the good guys. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3630 "2024-02-20T02:39:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But I want to be crystal clear that this is what you mean. Because as I said: it appears that you read the definition in the submission, then stopped there. Have you read the rest yet? Do you support it? I’ve now read the rest of it. Before reading it, I figured that Israel was okay with doing what it thought was in its best interests, and that I’d be okay with it likewise, and that it met the specialized _in-whole-or-in-part_ definition that you’re using. After reading it, that’s all — still true? Nothing in there really came as a surprise to me; much of it I’d already heard, the rest seemed significantly similar. I sure do hope you now have, uh, crystal clarity. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3631 "2024-02-20T03:02:47Z")
Good guys? I thought you were the hard core, cold blooded, war realist. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3632 "2024-02-20T03:28:05Z")
If that’s what you call acknowledging that war is ugly messy business that is often necessary to achieve greater good, then I suppose I am. It is because Israel’s cause is just that their acts are permissible. It is because Hamas’ cause is unjust that their acts are impermissible. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3633 "2024-02-20T03:39:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It is because Israel’s cause is just that their acts are permissible. I’m sorry, just according to whom? To what? International law? ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3634 "2024-02-20T03:54:16Z")
When you watch MCU movies, do you just fast forward over the parts where the good guys feel conflicted about all of the destruction they cause? It must really save time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=174) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=176)