# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 176
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3635 "2024-02-20T04:22:48Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I’m sorry, just according to whom? According to an objective analysis of whether its end goal is the achievement of the greatest possible good for the greatest possible number. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3636 "2024-02-20T04:25:26Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > When you watch MCU movies, do you just fast forward over the parts where the good guys feel conflicted about all of the destruction they cause? I mostly tuned out of the MCU after Winter Soldier was little more than a heavy-handed attempt at saying “DRONE WARFARE BAD” but was unable to give a coherent reason why without inventing an absurd scenario that would never occur in the real world and broke the entire setting. (See also Star Trek: Into Darkness and the Robocop remake.) Guardians of the Galaxy and Wandavision and Loki were good, though. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3637 "2024-02-20T04:33:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You may not have heard, but there’s a war going on. There was a war going on in 1942 Poland, as well. So I guess the Holocaust was just fine by you, then. “There is a war going on” excuses _nothing_. > [@Smapti](#): > > It is because Israel’s cause is just that their acts are permissible. Torture OK, granny-murder OK, baby-sniping OK, _genocide_ OK, if you’re the “Good Guys”? > [@Smapti](#): > > an objective analysis of whether its end goal is the achievement of the greatest possible good for the greatest possible number. What “objective” measure of “good” are you using? It’s not the least harm to the most amount of people, that’s for sure. Seems like it’s “whatever Israel wants”, to me. > [@Smapti](#): > > inventing an absurd scenario that would never occur in the real world What, having a computer doing pre-crime on potentially dangerous individuals then blowing them up? Yeah, _patently_ absurd: > **[‘The Gospel’: how Israel uses AI to select bombing targets in Gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/01/the-gospel-how-israel-uses-ai-to-select-bombing-targets)** > > Concerns over data-driven ‘factory’ that significantly increases the number of targets for strikes in the Palestinian territory 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3638 "2024-02-20T04:38:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There was a war going on in 1942 Poland, as well. So I guess the Holocaust was just fine by you, then. Only if you think the Nazi cause was just. I happen to disagree about that. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Torture OK, granny-murder OK, baby-sniping OK, _genocide_ OK, if you’re the “Good Guys”? The Allies easily killed millions of civilians in WWII. None of their leaders went on trial in Nuremberg. > [@MrDibble](#): > > What “objective” measure of “good” are you using? That which produces the best possible outcome in the long run - I.e. peace, freedom, and safety for the people of Israel and Palestine. > [@MrDibble](#): > > What, having a computer doing pre-crime on potentially dangerous individuals then blowing them up? Like “what if the people in charge of the drones were secretly part of a Nazi cabal that’s been running the US government for 70 years without anyone noticing and this includes the people who up until this point have unambiguously not been secret fascists plotting world domination and who don’t even need to enact this evil plan in the first place since they can already do whatever they want with impunity up to and including assassinating heads of state and world-famous supergeniuses who somehow never figured out that all their coworkers were evil”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3639 "2024-02-20T04:51:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Only if you think the Nazi cause was just. By what “objective” measure? > [@Smapti](#): > > None of their leaders went on trial in Nuremberg. Anything the winners did was OK. Gotcha. > [@Smapti](#): > > That which produces the best possible outcome in the long run You think genociding the Palestinians is going to produce peace, freedom and safety for Israel? > [@Smapti](#): > > peace, freedom, and safety for the people of Israel and Palestine. Well, I guess the dead _are_ peaceful… > [@Smapti](#): > > Like “what if the people in charge of the drones[snip]were evil” _That_ part of it wasn’t a scenario they invented. It comes straight from the comics, unrelated to the drone warfare analogy of Project Insight. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3640 "2024-02-20T05:26:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > By what “objective” measure? Asked and answered. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Anything the winners did was OK. Gotcha. I’ve been telling you for awhile now that “war crimes” is nothing more than an ad hoc justification for the winner taking vengeance on the defeated for doing the same things they did. Sounds like you’re starting to understand. > [@MrDibble](#): > > You think genociding the Palestinians is going to produce peace, freedom and safety for Israel? There’s only been one genocide attempted in Israel recently and the Palestinians aren’t the victims of it. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, I guess the dead _are_ peaceful… I guess it’s clear which side of the trolley problem you fall on. > [@MrDibble](#): > > _That_ part of it wasn’t a scenario they invented. It comes straight from the comics, unrelated to the drone warfare analogy of Project Insight. Doesn’t change the fact that it makes no sense, breaks the established continuity of the setting, and in no way justifies the director’s attempted statement. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3641 "2024-02-20T05:34:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Asked and answered. Where? Quote this answer, please. > [@Smapti](#): > > Sounds like you’re starting to understand. I’ve understood that you think that, for a while, yes. Just highlighting the crux of this for other readers. Not that that’s what war crime laws are about. Quite the opposite. > [@Smapti](#): > > There’s only been one genocide attempted in Israel recently Sure, buddy. > [@Smapti](#): > > the Palestinians aren’t the victims of it. Tell that to **TOWP** … > [@Smapti](#): > > I guess it’s clear which side of the trolley problem you fall on. I don’t do trolley problems. They’re morally bankrupt excuses for pushing the cult of utilitarianism and reducing ethics to mathematics. > [@Smapti](#): > > Doesn’t change the fact that it makes no sense Doesn’t change the fact that it wasn’t “invented” for the drone analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3642 "2024-02-20T06:15:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t do trolley problems. They’re morally bankrupt excuses for pushing the cult of utilitarianism and reducing ethics to mathematics. So you’d rather let ten people die than save them at the cost of one. Certainly explains why you think liberating the Palestinian people from their oppressors is “genocide”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3643 "2024-02-20T06:17:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So you’d rather let ten people die than save them at the cost of one. No, I’d rather not get maths all over my ethics, TYVM. Although if I _were_ prone to maths, I’d be noting the _absurdly_ disparate civilian kill ratios between Hamas and the IDF, especially in the matter of dead children and grannies, and note that _you’d_ rather kill a hundred to save one, as long as that one was Israeli and the hundred weren’t. > [@Smapti](#): > > Certainly explains why you think liberating the Palestinian people from their oppressors is “genocide”. Aah, yes, the Bến Tre sense of “liberating”, so utilitarian… Also, neat trick, for the oppressors to be doing the liberating from the oppressors. I guess the Palestinians can tell them apart by the colour of their hats. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3644 "2024-02-20T06:28:05Z")
I feel obliged to say that I’m a huge fan of utilitarianism _and_ the use of math (on at least a conceptual level) in moral decision making, but the trolley problem is not ethics, it is farce. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3645 "2024-02-20T06:31:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Also, neat trick, for the oppressors to be doing the liberating from the oppressors. Hamas are enemies of the Palestinian people too, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3646 "2024-02-20T06:46:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So you’d rather let ten people die than save them at the cost of one. I’m sorry, you’re the one actively supporting a lot more than ten Palestinians dying to save one Israeli life. > [@Smapti](#): > > Hamas are enemies of the Palestinian people too, you know. Hamas isn’t the one bombing hospitals and tent cities. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3647 "2024-02-20T07:16:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Hamas are enemies of the Palestinian people too, you know. Wow, I had no idea 🙄 So having one other oppressor in the equation magically makes the Israelis not oppressors, is that some of this utilitarian maths I’m supposed to be practicing? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3648 "2024-02-20T07:35:18Z")
You would think that the only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People’s Front, but the Israelis have really done the impossible in Gaza and so we see groups like the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine allying with Hamas and attacking Israeli armour near hospitals. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3649 "2024-02-20T08:41:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Certainly explains why you think liberating the Palestinian people from their oppressors is “genocide”. That, bent my brain. I don’t usually post in this type of thread, but I read them. You are honestly suggesting that Hamas are the oppressors, rather than the State of Israel, who have walled the Palestinians in and control every aspect of food and water supply? And their access to work, travel, and personal freedom? I not a Hamas fan, by any means, but the oppressors are not Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3650 "2024-02-20T08:42:49Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > You are honestly suggesting that Hamas are the oppressors, rather than the State of Israel, who have walled the Palestinians in and control every aspect of food and water supply? And their access to work, travel, and personal freedom? Israel’s actions have been necessary because of Hamas. There is no way the lives of the Gazan people improve unless Hamas is removed from power. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3651 "2024-02-20T08:45:03Z")
This is true @Smapti But then, if Hamas is destroyed what will the Israeli oppressors do? Give up and leave? Tear down the walls? Somehow I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3652 "2024-02-20T08:47:42Z")
At that point there should be no further need for what you call “oppression” provided that Israel takes the opportunity to rebuild what’s been destroyed and show the Gazan people a better way. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3653 "2024-02-20T08:50:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > provided that Israel takes the opportunity to rebuild what’s been destroyed Good luck with that exceptionally optimistic outcome. Have you seen how Gaza has been effectively razed to the ground? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2024, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3654 "2024-02-20T09:12:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Israel’s actions have been necessary because of Hamas. Blowing away those kids and grannies with sniper rounds was never necessary. And what was their excuse before 2006? And what will it be in 2026? And this “better way” Israel will show the Palestinians - will it include allowing Palestinians to settle stolen Israeli land? Or is that just a “do as I say, not do as I do” kind of showing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=175) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=177)