# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/343 "2023-10-18T15:05:18Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Anybody who feels their level of certainty is increasing is getting sold a bill of goods. Yeah, I’m sure Israeli propagandists have been plotting this for the last two years, they created a whole community of independent OSINT researchers who built up a solid reputation during the Ukraine war only so their lies in the upcoming conflict would be credible! _Then_ the Israelis hacked the Al Jazira livestream and inserted AI generated video evidence that the explosion was actually caused by a failed rocket. _Or_, and bear with me here, known liars Hamas lied. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/344 "2023-10-18T15:08:25Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > It’s not like this would be the first time there was a massive PR campaign that successfully obscured the details of a war crime. Anybody who feels their level of certainty is increasing is getting sold a bill of goods. On the one hand, anyone who has decided they have enough information to disregard further information is not intellectually or morally responsible here. ’ On the other hand, I don’t think anyone is doing that. “Increasing level of certainty” is a bit confusing as a phrase: “certainty” is a binary state and can’t increase or decrease. If a person is moving _toward_ a particular conclusion, based on new evidence, that’s exactly how it’s supposed to work. I’m far from certain that the IDF _or_ Hamas is telling the unvarnished truth. But new evidence is making it look likelier that IDF is telling the truth. I still am far from certain. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/345 "2023-10-18T15:46:39Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > _If_ the number of dead is actually that inflated, my guess is that Hamas knew right away that it was an internal failed rocket and they inflated the number under “big lie” logic. > > How many people (here, on Reddit, on Twitter, etc) have I seen who said something along the lines of, “a failed rocket, yeah right, how could a failed improvised rocket kill 500 people?”. > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > My thinking would be the opposite - that if Hamas deliberately inflated the number, it would be because they thought Israel was responsible. My thinking is that Hamas didn’t actually care. They realized they had a huge PR option and ran with it. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/346 "2023-10-18T15:55:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > _Or_, and bear with me here, known liars Hamas lied. There seems to be a narrative that Hamas do nothing but lie, while the Israel Defence Forces are the guardians of truth. For balance reasons, it should be noted that the IDF also have a long history of lying and engaging in cover-ups. Here are some examples: > > [@](#): > > Here’s a small sample of abuses of Palestinians in recent days in which the Israeli army was caught lying: a child horrifically injured by soldiers was arrested and terrified into signing a false confession that he was hurt in a bicycle accident. A man who, it was claimed, had died of tear-gas inhalation was actually shot at point-blank range, then savagely beaten by a mob of soldiers and left to die. > > … > > Israel’s deceptions have a long history. Back in the 1970s, a young Juliano Meir-Khamis, later to become one of Israel’s most celebrated actors, was assigned the job of carrying a weapons bag on operations in the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank. When Palestinian women or children were killed, he placed a weapon next to the body. > > In one incident, when soldiers playing around with a shoulder-launcher fired a missile at a donkey, and the 12-year-old girl riding it, Meir-Khamis was ordered to put explosives on their remains. > **[The lies and self-deceptions at work within Israel's 'moral' army](https://www.thenationalnews.com/opinion/comment/the-lies-and-self-deceptions-at-work-within-israel-s-moral-army-1.709910)** > > Jonathan Cook reviews recent abuses against Palestinians by Israel's military Killing of Palestinian medic Rouzan al-Najjar: > [@](#): > > The IDF first denied that she was targeted, while not ruling out that she may have been hit by indirect fire. Israeli human rights group B’Tselem said that al-Najjar was shot intentionally. > > … > > After initially reporting that an internal review showed that al-Najjar was not intentionally targeted, the IDF released video that purportedly showed al-Najjar admitting to being a human shield, with an IDF spokesman saying “Razan al-Najjar is not the angel of mercy Hamas propaganda is making her out to be.” The video that was released misleadingly took a prior interview that al-Najjar gave to a Lebanese television station out of context. She had said “I’m here on the line being a protective human shield saving the injured” and added she was at the protests to “save the wounded at the front lines”, however the IDF released video cut out everything past “human shield”. The Israeli military was widely criticized for its efforts in manipulating the video, with commentators drawing parallels to past instances of the IDF manipulating or otherwise faking evidence. > **[Killing of Rouzan al-Najjar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Rouzan_al-Najjar)** > > Rouzan Ashraf Abdul Qadir al-Najjar\[a\] (Arabic: روزان أشراف عبد القادر النجار Rouzān 'Ashrāf 'Abd al-Qādir an-Najjār; 13 September 1997 – 1 June 2018) was a Palestinian nurse/paramedic who was killed by the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) while volunteering as a medic during the 2018 Gaza border protests. She was fatally hit by a bullet shot by an Israeli soldier as she tried to help evacuate the wounded near Israel's border fence with Gaza. The IDF first denied that she was targeted, while The el... > [@](#): > > In the past two weeks, the Spokesperson’s Unit of the Israel Defense Forces was caught in two lies. Neither led any news broadcasts. > **[Israeli army was just caught lying, twice | Opinion | Opinion](https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2018-12-13/ty-article-opinion/.premium/quiet-were-shooting/0000017f-dec0-df62-a9ff-ded76ee70000)** > > \*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/347 "2023-10-18T15:58:40Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > There seems to be a narrative that Hamas do nothing but lie, while the Israel Defence Forces are the guardians of truth. I’m not basing anything I’ve said on IDF statements but on independent reports. That being said, I **do** consider the IDF much more reliable than Hamas, although that’s definitely not saying much. Even Donald Trump is more reliable than Hamas. The IDF is subject to civilian oversight and reporting by a press that’s not afraid to challenge its claims (as evidenced by the Haaretz articles you linked). The IDF is far from perfect. But comparing it to Hamas is simply laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/348 "2023-10-18T16:04:49Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > There seems to be a narrative that Hamas do nothing but lie, while the Israel Defence Forces are the guardians of truth. I disagree. That is black/white thinking. The nuance I’ve seen here is that on the whole, Hamas (being an organization that has no elections and has a very authoritarian structure) is more prone to making stuff up to make themselves look good. This keeps the money flowing, especially to leadership who are (I understand) not even in Gaza. While Israel has an elected government, responsible to the people and is under more scrutiny. Independent observers are able to gain more access to their information and data. The government will fall if they are seen to be lying about important information, especially concerning defense. The Hamas leadership is in no danger of falling, no matter what they say or do. This is not to say that one side always lies and the other always tells the truth. Certainly every statement must be examined carefully and one needs the flexibility to change one’s mind when new data becomes available. Trouble is, the “new data” from Hamas is not subject to any scrutiny due to their administrative structure. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/349 "2023-10-18T16:05:23Z")
Israel has released audio that purports to be an intercepted phone call between two Hamas operatives where one is explaining to the other that it was a failed rocket, says it was launched by Islamic Jihad (which is a different militant group from Hamas), and describes the location the rockets were being launched from. Obviously audio like this is easily faked, but between the blast “crater” (really just a tiny patch of torn asphalt) not looking anything like a bomb crater, the video that looks like a rocket falling and then fireballing, etc, every bit of actual evidence is now pointing to crashed rocket rather than Israeli strike. That Hamas would leap on the tragedy as a propaganda opportunity, and that the propaganda would be readily swallowed by those predisposed to believe the worst of Israel isn’t the least bit surprising. It will be interesting to see how (and if) news agencies who reported the propaganda uncritically and the people who believed and repeated that reporting walk back their statements. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/350 "2023-10-18T16:06:35Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > every bit of actual evidence is now pointing to crashed rocket rather than Israeli strike. A crashed rocket that did not even hit the hospital, but rather crashed into a courtyard/parking lot that was unfortunately populated by people seeking safety. > It will be interesting to see how (and if) news agencies who reported the propaganda uncritically and the people who believed and repeated that reporting walk back their statements. Prediction: For the most part, they won’t bother. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/351 "2023-10-18T16:08:26Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > That Hamas would leap on the tragedy as a propaganda opportunity, and that the propaganda would be readily swallowed by those predisposed to believe the worst of Israel isn’t the least bit surprising. One thing that would really help is if there were fewer defenders of IDF explaining why it’s just fine to send rockets into a hospital full of sick people. If, instead, folks were like, “The IDF would not do that, because that’s a war crime,” it might make people less likely to believe that the IDF would do that. But yes, I hope that people will walk back their automatic blame of IDF here. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/352 "2023-10-18T16:12:01Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > While Israel has an elected government, responsible to the people and is under more scrutiny. Independent observers are able to gain more access to their information and data. The government will fall if they are seen to be lying about important information, especially concerning defense. I just provided cites to various examples of the IDF lying. Has there been electoral accountability? Please either refute the allegations of the IDF lying, or show where it has led to electoral accountability. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/353 "2023-10-18T16:14:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > One thing that would really help is if there were fewer defenders of IDF explaining why it’s just fine to send rockets into a hospital full of sick people. If, instead, folks were like, “The IDF would not do that, because that’s a war crime,” it might make people less likely to believe that the IDF would do that. _Raises hand_. That’s kinda what I’ve been saying all along. And I completely agree with you. I’ve been complaining about the “let’s you and him fight” contingent since day 1 of this war. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/354 "2023-10-18T16:15:04Z")
I certainly think IDF lies. And i initially thought they bombed the hospital, and was relieved when they denied it. Not because i believed them, but because i was relieved that they publicly acknowledged that bombing a hospital is a horrible thing to do. I think i posted above that whoever launched it, it was probably a rocket that went astray. (I posted that somewhere, maybe not here.) It’s now looking like the evidence suggests it was a dud rocket fired from within Gaza. The only evidence I’ve seen for Islamic jihad is from IDF, so i give that low credibility. But there seems to be a lot of evidence it was a low-powered rocket fired from within Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/355 "2023-10-18T16:15:19Z")
And if some posters didn’t at first believe the brutal terrorists before any clear information was available, it would cause a lot less issues… > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I just provided cites to various examples of the IDF lying. Has there been electoral accountability? It is on a scale, we all acknowledge the IDF lies and has lies, we’re saying Hamas is far less trustworthy and horrible. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/356 "2023-10-18T16:16:37Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It’s now looking like the evidence suggests it was a dud rocket fired from within Gaza. The only evidence I’ve seen for Islamic jihad is from IDF, so i give that low credibility. But there seems to be a lot of evidence it was a low-powered rocket fired from within Gaza. According to CNN, the US is pretty well convinced it was not the IDF, but the Islamic Jihad. I’ll try to find and link. please note, Hamas was corrected to Islamic Jihad [https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/18/politics/us-intel-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/18/politics/us-intel-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/357 "2023-10-18T16:16:50Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Please either refute the allegations of the IDF lying, or show where it has led to electoral accountability. Some of your sources are Israeli newspapers. Others cite Israeli media or Israeli human rights groups. Israel is a free country and its journalists are critical of the IDF and of politicians literally all the time. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/358 "2023-10-18T16:18:23Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > According to CNN, the US is pretty well convinced it was not the IDF, but Hamas. Hamas? Or someone firing from within Gaza? Because Israel is claiming it’s Islamic Jihad, a separate group from Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/359 "2023-10-18T16:19:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > _Raises hand_. > > That’s kinda what I’ve been saying all along. > > And I completely agree with you. I’ve been complaining about the “let’s you and him fight” contingent since day 1 of this war. I appreciate that you’re saying that. It’s very easy to lose nuance in a horrific situation like this, and I think you’ve kept a focus on what’s true and what’s right, rather than on kneejerk supporting one ethnic group over another–not nearly enough people are doing that. So thank you for your posts. I’m learning a lot from them. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > And if some posters didn’t at first believe the brutal terrorists before any clear information was available, it would cause a lot less issues… Definitely agreed. Too many folks think “support Palestinians” means “shit on the IDF”; and too many people think “support Israelis” means “defend any IDF action.” Both approaches make people highly susceptible to propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/360 "2023-10-18T16:19:22Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Israel has released audio that purports to be an intercepted phone call between two Hamas operatives where one is explaining to the other that it was a failed rocket, says it was launched by Islamic Jihad (which is a different militant group from Hamas), and describes the location the rockets were being launched from. It’s interesting. In the alleged recording, the alleged Hamas people talk about the missile being fired from the cemetery next to the hospital. If one looks at the map, there is indeed a cemetery right next to the hospital. However, the video clearly shows that the missiles were fired from some distance away from the hospital. I’d estimate at least a mile, possibly several miles away from the hospital. They certainly weren’t fired from next to the hospital. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/361 "2023-10-18T16:19:34Z")
Damn, you’re right. I saw that briefly this morning. Not Hamas but a group on that side. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2023, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/362 "2023-10-18T16:20:34Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Hamas? Or someone firing from within Gaza? Because Israel is claiming it’s Islamic Jihad, a separate group from Hamas The evidence I saw for IJP was independent - apparently there is video evidence of them shooting off rockets at the site from which the faulty rocket in the video seems to come from, timestamped such that it is very likely that they were the only ones shooting off rockets in that part of Gaza at that time. But obviously that’s still not fully confirmed yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=19)