# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 180
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2024, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3715 "2024-02-22T23:25:49Z")
…from Chris Lockyear, Secretary General of Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders) > [@](#): > > As I speak, more than 1.5 million people are trapped in Rafah. People violently forced to this strip of land in southern Gaza are bearing the brunt of Israel’s military campaign. > > We live in fear of a ground invasion. > > Our fears are rooted in experience. Just 48 hours ago, as a family sat around their kitchen table in a house sheltering MSF staff and their families in Khan Younis, a 120mm tank shell exploded through the walls, igniting a fire, and [killing two people](https://www.msf.org/msf-strongly-condemns-deadly-israeli-attack-msf-shelter-gaza) and severely burning six others. Five of the six injured are women and children. > > We took every precaution to protect the 64 humanitarian staff and family members from such an attack by notifying warring parties of the location and clearly marking the building with an MSF flag. > > Despite our precautions, our building was struck not only by a tank shell but by intense gunfire. Some were trapped in the burning building while active shooting delayed ambulances from reaching them. This morning, I am looking at photos that show the catastrophic extent of the damage and I am watching videos of rescue teams removing the charred bodies from the rubble. > > … > > For 138 days, we have watched the systematic obliteration of a health system we have supported for decades. We have watched our patients and [colleagues be killed](https://www.msf.org/msf-doctors-killed-strike-al-awda-hospital-northern-gaza-palestine) and maimed. > > This situation is the culmination of a war Israel is waging on the entire population of the Gaza strip— > a war of collective punishment, > a war without rules, > a war at all costs. > > The laws and the principles we collectively depend on to enable humanitarian assistance are now eroded to the point of becoming meaningless. > > … > > There is no health system to speak of left in Gaza. Israel’s military has dismantled hospital after hospital. What remains is so little in the face of such carnage. It is preposterous. > > The excuse given is that medical facilities have been used for military purposes, yet we have seen zero independently verified evidence of this. > > In exceptional circumstances where a hospital loses its protected status, any attack must follow the principles of proportionality and precaution. > > Instead of adherence to international law, we see the systematic disabling of hospitals. This has left the entire medical system inoperable. > > … > > Surgeons have had no choice but to carry out amputations without anaesthesia, on children. > > Our surgeons are running out of basic gauze to stop their patients from bleeding out. They use it once, squeeze out the blood, wash it, sterilize it, and reuse it for the next patient. > > The humanitarian crisis in Gaza has left[pregnant women without medical care](https://www.msf.org/gaza-displaced-pregnant-women-high-risk-amid-dire-conditions-rafah) for months. Women in labour cannot reach functional delivery rooms. They are giving birth in plastic tents and public buildings. > > … > > Two days ago, MSF staff and families were attacked and died in a place they were told would be protected. > > Today our staff are back at work, risking their lives once again for their patients. > **[MSF briefing on Gaza to UN Security Council | MSF](https://www.msf.org/msf-briefing-gaza-un-security-council)** > > MSF International Secretary General Christopher Lockyear provides a briefing from MSF on the situation in Gaza to the UN Security Council. When we talk about how the healthcare system has been destroyed, we are talking about stuff like this. Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital was initially built as a training and research hospital. During Covid it was used for isolation and treatment. After the worst of the pandemic was over, authorities decided to consolidate oncology services and the hospital became the primary hospital for cancer care. In October the hospital was hit by an IDF bomb, something that Israel of course denied. Then the hospital was forced to shut down when it ran out of fuel. Today an IDF soldier released the below video on his social media showing him in part demolishing the hospital. In a caption he writes “The hospital accidentally broke.” > The destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza wasn’t an accident. It didn’t target Hamas. It was a deliberate, systematic, decision as part of an overall strategy to make Gaza unliveable. This should have been obvious from the start. But this is where we are now. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3716 "2024-02-23T01:00:00Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza wasn’t an accident. It didn’t target Hamas. It was a deliberate, systematic, decision as part of an overall strategy to make Gaza unliveable. This should have been obvious from the start. You have no way of substantiated this claim. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3717 "2024-02-23T01:06:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You have no way of substantiated this claim. …I’ve documented the destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza since the start of the thread. I just posted a video shared on social media of an IDF soldier cheerfully demolishing a hospital with a bulldozer. I’ve shared the statements from Israeli leadership that demonstrate genocidal intent. I’ve just posted a statement from the head of Doctors without Borders that talks about how none of the claims about why the hospitals have been targeted stack up. I’m entirely confident in my statement. I think I’ve backed it up with sufficient evidence over the last series of months. And I know that you’ve read it, because much of what I’ve posted has been in direct response to things you have said. So I consider that I _have_ substantiated my claim. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3718 "2024-02-23T01:23:38Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’ve documented the destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza since the start of the thread. You claimed it was intendional to destroy the healthcare system. You have not substantiated that claim. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3719 "2024-02-23T01:36:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You claimed it was intendional to destroy the healthcare system. …do you think they accidentally destroyed the healthcare system? How was it not intentional? Let’s start with the Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital that had consolidated and provided all cancer care for Gaza. It was forced to close by the Israeli blockade in November, and it was demolished this week by bulldozers. Was it demolished by accident? Why didn’t Israel take any steps to rehabilitate the hospital? What is Israel doing in regard to cancer care in Gaza? What do people who need chemotherapy in Gaza do now? If I’m wrong, and the destruction of the healthcare system was all just a giant mistake, what is Israel doing to fix their mistake? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3720 "2024-02-23T01:57:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …do you think they accidentally destroyed the healthcare system? How was it not intentional? Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3721 "2024-02-23T01:58:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Hamas. …Hamas what? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3722 "2024-02-24T06:40:57Z")
“But, Hamas…”, of course. You know it’s all they’ve got in the face of literal self-documentary evidence of their IDF “heroes” laughing while they genocide. The Nazis [loved to take photos](https://books.google.co.za/books/about/Photographing_the_Holocaust.html?id=8fT6DwAAQBAJ&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y) of their activities, too. Guess the Israelis learned _something_ from the Shoah, even if it wasn’t “genocide is bad, don’t do it” Never Again (Unless It’s Us Doing It) doesn’t quite roll off the tongue as glibly. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3723 "2024-02-24T11:14:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But, Hamas…”, of course. You know it’s all they’ve got in the face of literal self-documentary evidence of their IDF “heroes” laughing while they genocide. I wonder how much indignation you had when Hamas and local Gazans massacred the Israelis most sympathetic to their plight on October 7th. It’s also not a genocide, because you would see the same intensity of military action now ushered to the Gazans given to those in the West Bank as well as taking steps to eradicate the entire population before somethingike October 7th even happening. Considering Hamas initiated this war, they are ultimately responsible for the consequences of the results, and you need to come to the realisation that Palestinians see it more as their version of the reconquista rather than an eventual two state solution. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3724 "2024-02-24T12:07:00Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I wonder how much indignation you had when Hamas and local Gazans massacred the Israelis most sympathetic to their plight on October 7th. About as much. “But, Hamas” is a non-argument for people who _agree_ Hamas are _also_ murdering scum. (although - “most sympathetic to their plight”? Who was that? The toothless IDF watchdogs on their borders? People at a rave right on the border of their open air prison? _Kibbutzniks_? ) > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > It’s also not a genocide, because you would see the same intensity of military action now ushered to the Gazans given to those in the West Bank as well as taking steps to eradicate the entire population before somethingike October 7th even happening. A slow genocide is still a genocide. And no, the West Bank was not literally flattened before Oct 7, the way Gaza is now. “Same intensity”, my ass. Although “taking steps to eradicate the entire population” is a literal admission of genocide in a sentence denying genocide, which is a neat trick… > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Considering Hamas initiated this war “But, Hamas!” > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > they are ultimately responsible for the consequences of the results No, the people doing the genociding are responsible for their own genocidal actions. We don’t apply the logic of the wife-beater to IHL. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > you need to come to the realisation that Palestinians see it more as their version of the reconquista Yes, I’m sure the head-shot five-year olds were real Right of Return idealogues 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3725 "2024-02-24T13:48:07Z")
My temple is partnering with another local temple and leading a trip to Israel to show support. I looked at the itinerary. It includes visiting a mixed (Arab/Jewish) couple and talking with some official about how to get to peace. They are also visiting the site of the concert. I’m kinda shocked that that’s accessible to random tourists. I’ve written a letter to the Rabbi about why i don’t feel i can “stand with Israel” right now. But i haven’t sent it. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3726 "2024-02-24T14:39:54Z")
> A slow genocide is still a genocide. How long has this purported genocide been taking place? Since the original two state solution in 48 Palestinians rejected? Or when Egypt and Jordan occupied the Gaza and The West Bank? Or when you know where the surrounding Arab states alongside the Palestinians thought they could eradicate the state of Israel so didn’t bother to accept the partition plan? > About as much. > “But, Hamas” is a non-argument for people who agree Hamas are also murdering scum. > (although - “most sympathetic to their plight”? Who was that? The toothless IDF watchdogs on their borders? People at a rave right on the border of their open air prison? Kibbutzniks? ) No, a woman like this,[Vivian Silver](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Silver) These the same people who lob rockets at Israel even after they withdrew from Gaza? The problem is Palestinian irredentism > And no, the West Bank was not literally flattened before Oct 7, the way Gaza is now. “Same intensity”, my ass. Never said it was? I was saying if Israel had genocidal intent they would have the same ferocity against the West Bank as they do with Gaza, yet mysteriously they don’t. > Although “taking steps to eradicate the entire population” is a literal admission of genocide in a sentence denying genocide, which is a neat trick… Who said this in any authority to carry it out? > “But, Hamas!” You mean the organisation on a par with ISIS which initiated this barbaric slaughter? Yeah them, they’re ultimately responsible. > No, the people doing the genociding are responsible for their own genocidal actions. We don’t apply the logic of the wife-beater to IHL. Lol, wife beater analogies are so apt for this conflict with Hamas taking the role of the beaten wife? Pathetic. Israel isn’t doing any genociding, I refute your opinion in its entirety. > Yes, I’m sure the head-shot five-year olds were real Right of Return idealogues 🙄 Just like all those babies beheaded were settlers right? You need to stop grafting your ANC Apartheid era experience onto conflicts where it doesn’t apply, this is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3727 "2024-02-24T15:22:53Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > How long has this purported genocide been taking place? Since wannabe-Israelis started pogroming Palestine villages… so, _before_ partition in 1948. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No, a woman like this,[Vivian Silver](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_Silver) That’s one. How many of those killed were like Silver? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > These the same people who lob rockets at Israel even after they withdrew from Gaza? “Withdrew” but still controlled all access and movement. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The problem is Palestinian irredentism _Israeli_ irredentism, of course, is entirely problem-free. /s > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Never said it was? “Same intensity” was literally quoting you. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I was saying if Israel had genocidal intent they would have the same ferocity against the West Bank as they do with Gaza Naah, the West Bank is where they’re currently settling, don’t want to salt their own new farms… Although I’ve [already cited](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3703) where it’s hardly like the West Bank is some garden of roses with regards to bombings and Israeli boots-on-the-ground. So give it time… > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Who said this in any authority to carry it out? Didn’t say you did. Just pointing out the cognitive dissonance there. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You mean the organisation on a par with ISIS which initiated this barbaric slaughter? “But, Hamas!” > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yeah them, they’re ultimately responsible. Naah. That’s not how responsibility works. Hamas doesn’t press the child-murdering sniper’s finger on the trigger. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Lol, wife beater analogies are so apt for this conflict with Hamas taking the role of the beaten wife? Palestinians =/= Hamas. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Israel isn’t doing any genociding Yes, they are. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I refute your opinion in its entirety. Nevertheless, they genocide. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Just like all those babies beheaded were settlers right? Naah. Because settlers aren’t fictional. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You need to stop grafting your ANC Apartheid era experience onto conflicts where it doesn’t apply What an absolute _non sequitur_. Where have I referenced ANC _anything_ when calling this a genocide? I’m talking about the things that are actually happening in Gaza, like murdered grannies and kids, people herded into killzone tentcamps to starve and die of disease (when not just blown up), and smarmy self-implicating IDF genocidaires. Absolutely nothing to do with SA’s history. Not that I was in the ANC, mind you. My apartheid-era experience was with other organizations. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3728 "2024-02-24T16:22:25Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Just like all those babies beheaded were settlers right? Hey moderators, are you ever going to stop people in this thread from repeating this lie? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3729 "2024-02-24T16:26:39Z")
Speaking as a moderator, we don’t generally moderate for factual accuracy. That’s the job of posters. If someone is becoming disruptive by saying the same thing over and over, or misrepresents quotes, we are more likely to get involved. Report instances like that, though. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3731 "2024-02-24T16:48:42Z")
> Since wannabe-Israelis started pogroming Palestine villages… so, _before_ partition in 1948. You mean like when the Palestinians did this?[Jaffa riots](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots) > That’s one. How many of those killed were like Silver? I dunno, I guess the people roasted alive by Hamas didn’t get the chance to be like her > “Withdrew” but still controlled all access and movement. Because Hamas kept lobbing rockets on a consistent basis into Israel proper. > Israeli irredentism, of course, is entirely problem-free. /s What a nice strawman, still doesn’t solve the Palestinian equivalent. > Same intensity” was literally quoting you. Yeah misquoting me to explain how Israel is not comitting genocide because if it was you wouldn’t see the West Bank spared the ferocity of violence meted out to Gaza. > Naah, the West Bank is where they’re currently settling, don’t want to salt their own new farms… Ah so it’s not genocide then > Although I’ve already cited where it’s hardly like the West Bank is some garden of roses with regards to bombings and Israeli boots-on-the-ground. So give it time… So was Northern Ireland, doesn’t mean it was a genocide. > Didn’t say you did. Just pointing out the cognitive dissonance there. I wasn’t talking about me I was asking which Israeli government official with substantial authority has explicitly called for the genocide of Palestine? > “But, Hamas!” When bombing Germany “But, The Nazis!” > Naah. That’s not how responsibility works. > Hamas doesn’t press the child-murdering sniper’s finger on the trigger. No it just went around Sderot and sets it on fire and then goes on to murder entire scores of civilians, is that how responsibility works in your world? > Palestinians =/= Hamas. Lots of Palestinians support Hamas > Yes, they are. No they’re not > Nevertheless, they genocide. No they don’t, because its not a genocide. > Naah. Because settlers aren’t fictional. Those settlers didn’t deserve to die > What an absolute _non sequitur_. > Where have I referenced ANC _anything_ when calling this a genocide? You’re of the same mindset as the current SA government saying this is a genocide when it isn’t. Its not surprising for you to have this world view in the context of the ANC being aligned with the Palestinian cause. > I’m talking about the things that are actually happening in Gaza, like murdered grannies and kids, people herded into killzone tentcamps to starve and die of disease (when not just blown up), and smarmy self-implicating IDF genocidaires. You mean like the murdered grannies and kids that Hamas slaughtered in October? The ultimate responsibility for this disaster is Hamas, Israel having to invade and do a root and branch gutting of the entire Hamas infrastructure interwoven purposely with the local population is on them, none of which consyltitutes a genocide and dilutes the terminology snd cheapen it when an actual genocide does occur. > Absolutely nothing to do with SA’s history > Not that I was in the ANC, mind you. My apartheid-era experience was with other organizations. I just feel you’re more comfortable with a narrative which had you on the side which uses language such as Apartheid and Genocide without actually stopping for moment snd thinking, maybe these guys aren’t exactly innocent themselves, with Oct 7th basically a benchmark of what any Israeli can except from a Palestinian victory, if that ever happens. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3732 "2024-02-24T17:50:44Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You mean like when the Palestinians did this? I love how it’s “the Palestinians” who did it when it _started_ with Jews fighting Jews and _ended_ with Jews killing Arabs. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I dunno, I guess the people roasted alive by Hamas didn’t get the chance to be like her Naah, now they’re just like the many, many Palestinians who’ve been white phosphorous-ed over the years. Hey, this “you did it too” game is sure … something. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Because Hamas kept lobbing rockets on a consistent basis into Israel proper. Oh no, they attacked their occupiers, how terrible… > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > still doesn’t solve the Palestinian equivalent. Israel first… > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yeah misquoting me I literally quoted your exact words. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > so it’s not genocide then You think replacing people on their own land isn’t covered by genocide? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So was Northern Ireland What the hell? So was South Africa, so was … I don’t know, Grenada? Not every war or occupation is a genocide, yes, this is not in dispute. Just the ones where the side doing the majority of the slaughter has members of its government literally saying that they’re not going to stop until they kill or drive off everyone on the other side. Which Israel has done. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > wasn’t talking about me I was. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I was asking which Israeli government official with substantial authority has explicitly called for the genocide of Palestine? Why would I bother answering such a loaded, weasel-worded question? Especially when plenty of quotes have already been provided right here in this thread. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > “But, The Nazis!” Exactly. Dresden would be a war crime today. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No it just went around Sderot and sets it on fire and then goes on to murder entire scores of civilians, is that how responsibility works in your world? Where’ve I said Hamas isn’t responsible for October 7? What comes after, though, months later, and involving innocent civilians who had nothing to do with Oct 7, is entirely on Israel. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Lots of Palestinians support Hamas Lots don’t. And a 5 yo could be dancing down the street waving a Hamas flag and chanting “From the River to the Sea”, whatever IDF murderer shoots him would _still_ be an evil son-of-a-bitch coward. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No they’re not Yes, they are. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No they don’t, because its not a genocide. Yes, it is. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You’re of the same mindset as the current SA government saying this is a genocide when it isn’t. Because it is. If the current SA government says the sea is salty, I’m not going to argue with them, because I too can tell it is. Same-same with Israel’s genocide. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Its not surprising for you to have this world view in the context of the ANC being aligned with the Palestinian cause. I’m not an ANC supporter. But I am for human rights. Such a the right not to be a victim of genocide. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You mean like the murdered grannies and kids that Hamas slaughtered in October? Yes. What, you think I don’t consider them victims, too? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The ultimate responsibility for this disaster is Hamas “But, Hamas!” > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I just feel you’re more comfortable with a narrative which had you on the side which uses language such as Apartheid and Genocide without actually stopping for moment snd thinking You’re projecting worse than Cape Hatteras… > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > maybe these guys aren’t exactly innocent themselves Never said they were. In fact, I’ve _literally_ called them “heartless murderers”. Not everyone thinks in terms of a Good vs Evil narrative. The current Israel-Palestine one is Evil vs Evil (with lots of innocents in between) ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3733 "2024-02-24T23:01:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I love how it’s “the Palestinians” who did it when it _started_ with Jews fighting Jews and _ended_ with Jews killing Arabs. Except it was Arabs butchering Jews > Naah, now they’re just like the many, many Palestinians who’ve been white phosphorous-ed over the years. > Hey, this “you did it too” game is sure … something. You know what I’m sure of? Even if Israel withdrew to the '67 borders, the Palestinians would still attack Israel and there still wouldn’t be peace, you seem to be blind to the uncomfortable truth that maybe they don’t want to make agreement with Israel. > Oh no, they attacked their occupiers, how terrible… Yeah considering they withdrew in 2005 > Israel first… No thanks > You think replacing people on their own land isn’t covered by genocide? They’re not replacing them in Gaza or the West Bank > What the hell? So was South Africa, so was … I don’t know, Grenada? Not every war or occupation is a genocide, yes, this is not in dispute. Great, so it’s bizarre how you can’t apply this to Israel. > Just the ones where the side doing the majority of the slaughter has members of its government literally saying that they’re not going to stop until they kill or drive off everyone on the other side. > Which Israel has done. No it hasn’t the 1948 partition plan _which Israel agreed to_ gave Palestinians more territory than it has now, however, they decided to by and large uproot themselves from what is now Israel proper, on the arrogant expectation that the subsequent attacks by the surrounding Arab states would kick the Jewish people out, which didn’t happen. > Why would I bother answering such a loaded, weasel-worded question? Especially when plenty of quotes have already been provided right here in this thread. Because you’re the one bringing it up? > Exactly. Are you for real? > Dresden would be a war crime today. Doesn’t make the allied side comparable to the Nazis or the fact the raison detre for that bombing in the first place was the wholesale destruction of Europe. > Where’ve I said Hamas isn’t responsible for October 7? The entire tone of your replies in this thread is to minimise their barbarism and complain about the audacity of Israel to respond to such an attack. > What comes after, though, months later, and involving innocent civilians who had nothing to do with Oct 7, is entirely on Israel. Innocents are going to be in the crossfire of a heavily urbanised area where a terrorist organisation has deliberately hidden themselves, what do you expect to happen? > You’re projecting worse than Cape Hatteras… What am I projecting exactly? > Never said they were. In fact, I’ve literally called them “heartless murderers”. But not genocides, that’s reserved for Israel > Not everyone thinks in terms of a Good vs Evil narrative. The current Israel-Palestine one is Evil vs Evil (with lots of innocents in between) Neither do I, on the balance of probabilities of who’s more likely to want peace between the two, I’m going to go with the country who’s people have suffered multiple genocide attempts and one industrially organised genocide, as opposed to the other faction who’s government is barely different from Isis and who’s people had the arrogant presumption that they could reclaim the whole of Palestine as it was by butchering all the Jewish ppl who are in the way. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3734 "2024-02-24T23:27:27Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > They’re not replacing them in Gaza or the West Bank What do you think expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank is, then? ISTM absolutely undeniable that a huge chunk of Israeli society, including the current Israeli government, is unequivocally in favor of extending and maintaining Israeli control over substantial (and growing) parts of West Bank and Gaza territories. That’s replacement, by any reasonable interpretation of the term. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > however, they decided to by and large uproot themselves from what is now Israel proper Fleeing your home because you’re afraid of getting caught in a war, or being driven out by armed settlers, is not the same thing as “deciding to uproot yourself” in the sense of voluntarily choosing to emigrate. Palestinians didn’t relinquish their claims to their ancestral homes because they fled them in the Nakba. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > on the balance of probabilities of who’s more likely to want peace between the two, I’m going to go with the country who’s people have suffered multiple genocide attempts and one industrially organised genocide That’s a very naive take on the situation, AFAICT. Just because a particular people have been victims of oppression and exploitation doesn’t make them intrinsically incapable of oppressing and exploiting others. An Israeli government that genuinely wanted peace and coexistence, with equal rights and sovereignty for Palestinians and Israelis, would not be persistently expanding Israeli settlements in Palestinian territories, for example. As I’ve repeatedly said, I have no sympathy with Hamas terror attacks on civilians. But we’re not going to get anywhere with an honest assessment of this situation if we persist in assuming that Israel’s motivations are necessarily, axiomatically legitimate and justifiable, and the Palestinians’ motivations are necessarily, axiomatically evil and destructive. For example, it is not evil or destructive for Palestinians to want, and even to fight for, basic rights and sovereignty in their own ancestral homeland. And it is not legitimate or justifiable for Israel to claim, much less to try to implement, permanent control over all Palestinian territory. There are a lot of other complicating issues in the situation, of course, including illegitimate Hamas terror attacks and legitimate Israeli fears of such attacks. But the simplistic binary of “Israel’s actions are right and Palestinians’ actions are wrong” is not a realistic depiction of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2024, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3735 "2024-02-25T01:39:20Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I wasn’t talking about me I was asking which Israeli government official with substantial authority has explicitly called for the genocide of Palestine? …I’ll cite the South African submission to the International Court of Justice, from page 59 to page 69, section D, titled “Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials and Others”. > **[South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf](https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf)** > > 1521.44 KB Proving intent has always been the hardest part of proving a genocide is taking place. In this case? They just tweeted it out. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Lots of Palestinians support Hamas Which doesn’t make them a legitimate target. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No they don’t, because its not a genocide. From a few days ago: Dana Yaghy from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, was killed during the IDF bombing campaign. Along with _forty members of her family._ > Entire generations of families have been wiped out during the war. From Time in October, “47 families—consisting of over 500 civilians—were wiped from the civil registry.” > **[Israeli Airstrikes Have 'Wiped Out Entire Families'](https://time.com/6330210/israel-hamas-gaza-families-amnesty-international/)** > > Israel has "wiped out entire families" in Gaza, reports Amnesty International and the Palestinian Ministry of Health. The article was from October the 31st. There are _so many more families_ that have been completely wiped out since then. There are 2.2 million people in Gaza. 1.9 million of them have been forced from their homes. Most won’t have a home to return too: either it was destroyed during the bombing campaign, blown up by controlled explosives, knocked over by bulldozers, or burnt to the ground by IDF soldiers. 1.5 million of those people have been forced from the north, forced from central Gaza, right up to the border, most forced to live in tent cities in and around Rafah. And Israel have declared that they are holding off their attack on Rafah until March, so that it coincides with [Ramadan](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240219-israel-sets-ramadan-deadline-for-assault-on-gazan-city-rafah). Gaza doesn’t have a healthcare system any more. 24 out of 36 hospitals have been shut down. Many of those hospitals that were shut down have now been completely destroyed. The remaining hospitals are on life support: barely able to offer any services at all with medical equipment and supplies not coming in through the border due to the siege, and everywhere is working significantly over capacity. In the north of Gaza they are experiencing famine. Many children have already died from starvation. Some are boiling grass and leaves to eat, having used up the supply of animal feed. Aid convoys to the north were suspended a few weeks ago because the IDF fired on a convoy, and when they attempted to restart convoys a few days ago they immediately had to suspend them again because the security situation had deteriorated to the point where it is no longer safe. No food can get to the north of Gaza. Fields have been razed. This is a death sentence. And for the rest of Gaza, the siege is taking its toll. Starvation, disease, infection. Israel is only allowing a tiny fraction of the aid needed into Gaza. Israel have allowed protests to continue that have blocked one of the border crossings. Even if the siege were lifted today, humanitarian experts believe that thousands of people would still die of preventable causes. And if the siege isn’t lifted? Excess deaths will be in the hundreds of thousands. South Africa took a case to the International Court of Justice, “alleging that Israel is responsible for violations of the Genocide Convention”, the submission I’ve linked to earlier in this post. The court, by majority vote, said: > [@](#): > > The court issued its interim ruling on Jan. 26 with six legally binding provisions, including those ordering the Israeli army to: prevent acts that might be considered genocide in the besieged enclave; allow humanitarian aid into the strip; punish incitement to genocide; submit monthly reports; and take measures to protect Palestinians. > **[The top UN court has ruled on Gaza genocide case. Here's what happens now](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/09/un-court-has-ruled-on-gaza-genocide-case-heres-what-happens-now.html)** > > Last month, the International Court of Justice ruled on South Africa's legal case accusing Israel of genocide. CNBC takes a look at what might come next. So when you argue that this _isn’t_ a genocide: I’d like you to explain to us how the things I’ve described are _not_ genocidal. We call the Bosnian genocide a genocide, yet the numbers in that genocide are a mere _fraction_ of what we are observing in Gaza. So make your case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=179) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=181)