# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 182
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2024, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3756 "2024-02-26T01:17:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > without using snarl words like “genocide” that cheapen the word to the point of meaninglessness. …nobody is cheapening the word genocide in this thread. Nobody is cheapening the word genocide on the world stage. Israeli leadership have been making statements of genocidal intent since the start of the war, and the strategies and tactics of the IDF are genocidal in nature. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2024, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3757 "2024-02-26T02:15:59Z")
Ok, you are correct, I chose a poor hypothetical. Now can we stop reducing dead people in Gaza to Xs and Ys? I really don’t care what motivations the Netanyahu cult has for their actions in Gaza, or how far they think they can push it. I’m done with their crap. More importantly, other people are done with their crap too. [https://apnews.com/article/israel-settlements-illegitimate-palestine-biden-rescind-law-0bed7cf5d6f98012193e9f5075eb719a](https://apnews.com/article/israel-settlements-illegitimate-palestine-biden-rescind-law-0bed7cf5d6f98012193e9f5075eb719a) [https://www.axios.com/2024/02/24/gaza-humanitarian-aid-israel-hamas-police-biden](https://www.axios.com/2024/02/24/gaza-humanitarian-aid-israel-hamas-police-biden) ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2024, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3758 "2024-02-26T14:27:45Z")
Very well said, and I think this captures my views pretty damn well. Just to add a couple of things: Israel’s actions in the West Bank undermine their credibility. It’s the more peaceful neighborhood, and the continued settler encroachment, and ignoring of settler on Palestinian violence really shows how the government feels. There was a West Bank Palestinian on NPR the other day saying that he used to be able to report issues with Settlers to the IDF, and the IDF would help them. Now the IDF is hostile towards even the “good” West Bank residents. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2024, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3759 "2024-02-26T19:19:16Z")
> [@](#): > > And to the Israeli supporters here who have no problem with innocent Palestinians being killed as part of military operations to eliminate an evil Hamas and protect innocent Israelis, Is anyone actually taking this position? There’s a subtle but very important distinction between something like “I have no problem with innocent Palestinians being killed”, which implies sociopathic lack of human empathy; and the similar-sounding but very different “innocent Palestinians being killed, in and of itself, does not outweigh the right of Israel to defend itself and to take military actions that will prevent future deaths of Israeli citizens”. > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > There has been a lot of arguing here recently about whether or not the Israeli actions in Gaza constitute genocide. Personally, I don’t care if it does or not. I think it’s more than just a semantic debate because of the symbolic power of the word “genocide” to act as a debate-ending cudgel. A position I have seen all too frequently online recently (mainly on reddit) is some version of “I’m a leftist, so I won’t vote for trump, but I also can’t vote for Biden, who is supporting genocide”. Now, I’d like to think that the vast majority of people actually posting that are bots/Russian plants/whatever. But it’s certainly the case that “when are we going to stop funding genocide” seems, on the surface, like a question with a lot more straightforward and obvious answer than “when are we going to stop funding a close longtime ally with whom we have a massive web of dependencies of all sorts, which was recently greviously and horrifically attacked, and which is responding with military force; and many respectable observers believe military force has been excessive and has insufficient respect for innocent life and humanitarian concerns”. The first charge just hardens the battle lines. If I was generally supportive of Israel, why would I engage with someone who was levelling such a horrific charge? It stifles actual exchange of information. (I guess the counterargument is that it’s necessary to use such a horrific word in order to shock people into engaging in the first place, and I’m not going to say there’s no truth to that…) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2024, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3760 "2024-02-26T20:17:45Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Is anyone actually taking this position? …yes. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I think it’s more than just a semantic debate because of the symbolic power of the word “genocide” to act as a debate-ending cudgel. Its no more a “debate ending-cudgel” than it was to accuse people using the word “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide” of blood libel. Genocide is being used here because of the case bought to the International Court of Justice by South Africa that argued that Israel had violated the genocide convention. I think that South Africa have made a convincing case. I think the evidence is fairly overwhelming. I think that they have shown intent. So I don’t see a problem with using the word here. I’m not exactly going to be typing" “the strategies and tactics, coupled with the statements of intent from Israeli leadership, show that they are indiscriminately bombing targets, driving people from the north to the south, are using starvation as a weapon, have destroyed the healthcare system, razing fields, using controlled demolitions, bulldozers and fire to flatten most of Gaza, with the intent of making Gaza un-livable for Palestinians so that they either 1) leave or 2) remain under cruel occupation or 3) die” when using the word genocide would do. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > A position I have seen all too frequently online recently (mainly on reddit) is some version of “I’m a leftist, so I won’t vote for trump, but I also can’t vote for Biden, who is supporting genocide”. Now, I’d like to think that the vast majority of people actually posting that are bots/Russian plants/whatever. I can assure you that I follow many of these people, and every single one of them are real people that I was following prior to October the seventh. And my suggestion would be to start listening to them and taking them seriously instead of just dismissing them because you think they are 'bots." Some of them held their noses and voted for Biden last time…but thats a bridge too far now. This is a serious problem that could lose the Democrats the election. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > If I was generally supportive of Israel, why would I engage with someone who was levelling such a horrific charge? Because the evidence of that horrific charge is overwhelming. Why would you not engage with someone who leveled a horrific charge and backed it up with multiple corroborating cites? > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > It stifles actual exchange of information. No it doesn’t. For example I provided for you earlier in this thread _before_ I started to use the word genocide everything I’m talking about now. The only difference is that I’m calling it a genocide. How has that stifled the exchange of information? ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2024, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3761 "2024-02-26T20:43:26Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > And to the Israeli supporters here who have no problem with innocent Palestinians being killed as part of military operations to eliminate an evil Hamas and protect innocent Israelis, > > Is anyone actually taking this position? There’s a subtle but very important distinction between something like “I have no problem with innocent Palestinians being killed”, which implies sociopathic lack of human empathy; and the similar-sounding but very different “innocent Palestinians being killed, in and of itself, does not outweigh the right of Israel to defend itself and to take military actions that will prevent future deaths of Israeli citizens”. > > I guess I am having trouble parsing the difference between my statement and your second statement. In both cases Palestinians are dying as a result of military operations designed to eliminate Hamas and protect Israelis. I didn’t say that anyone here was in favor of just killing people in Gaza for no reason. > > > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > > > There has been a lot of arguing here recently about whether or not the Israeli actions in Gaza constitute genocide. Personally, I don’t care if it does or not. > > I think it’s more than just a semantic debate because of the symbolic power of the word “genocide” to act as a debate-ending cudgel. I don’t care about the definitions, semantics, or even spelling of the word at this point. I would say that instead of stifling debate, it has encourage debate here as several hundred postings can attest to. Where we may agree is that those postings have been a distraction. I think some people here are far more comfortable debating the semantics of the word, rather than debating what is actually happening in Gaza right now. You know what is stifling? Being crushed under the wreckage of an apartment building that was just bombed by the Israeli Air Force. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3762 "2024-02-27T07:04:18Z")
…from the latest flash update: > [@](#): > > - The Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS), supported by OCHA and the World Health Organization (WHO), have completed the evacuation of 72 critical cases from Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis. > - A UN staff member and a PRCS volunteer paramedic were reported killed in Gaza, heightening existing concerns for the safety of aid workers and medical personnel. > - The United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) reports that newborns are dying in Gaza because their mothers are unable to attend prenatal or postnatal check-ups while the incessant bombings, fleeing for safety and anxiety are leading to premature births. > - A new report by the World Bank highlights that economic activity in Gaza has grounded to a halt and nearly every resident will live in poverty, at least in the short term. > [@](#): > > - The protection and safety of humanitarian aid workers and medical personnel continues to be a serious concern amid widespread hostilities and attacks. On 22 February, a UN staff member and several members of his family were killed in an airstrike in Deir Al Balah, according to [UNOPS](https://www.unops.org/news-and-stories/speeches/statement-on-the-death-of-unops-colleague-and-his-family-in-gaza). A volunteer paramedic with the [PRCS](https://twitter.com/PalestineRCS/status/1761002309767602206) ambulance centre in Rafah was also reported killed, when his family home in eastern Rafah was struck on 23 February. Since 7 October, 161 UN staff have been killed in Gaza. Between 7 October and 12 February, there were 378 attacks on health care across Gaza, affecting 98 health facilities and 98 ambulances, according to [WHO](https://www.emro.who.int/images/stories/Impact_of_health_attacks_in_the_Gaza_Strip_12_Feb.pdf). > [@](#): > > On 23 February, PRCS carried out a fourth evacuation mission of wounded and sick patients from Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, supported by WHO and OCHA. > > … > > - In total, since 18 February, 72 critical cases have been evacuated from the hospital, which still struggles to operate with no electricity or running water, shortages of food and water supplies, the accumulation of solid waste, and sewage overflow. Some 200 people have been detained by the Israeli army from the hospital before the operation was concluded, according to the [Israeli authorities](https://x.com/cogatonline/status/1761747474111160553?s=20). On 25 February, MoH in Gaza [warned](https://www.facebook.com/MOHGaza1994) that hospitals in northern Gaza are running out of fuel, including Al Ahli Arab hospital. The hospital [which is managing to perform 13 operations per day and cater to 300 outpatients](https://anglicanoverseasaid.org.au/2024/02/23/a-beacon-of-hope-amidst-crisis-the-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza/), currently runs at only 30 per cent capacity due to the lack of power. MoH further stated that dialysis and intensive care patients are at risk of death as a result of the lack of fuel for generators, ambulances, and medicines. > [@](#): > > UNFPA [reports](https://www.unfpa.org/news/impossible-choices-gaza-%E2%80%9Cwomen-are-giving-birth-prematurely-because-terror%E2%80%9D) that there are only five beds for deliveries at the Al Helal Al Emirati maternity hospital in Rafah, one of the few remaining functioning hospitals in Gaza. Despite the lack of such basic needs as sheets, the facility has had to cope with 78 deliveries in one night. “While one woman is giving birth, we bring another case, and there’s no bed,” a midwife quoted in the report said. Newborns are dying because the mothers are unable to attend prenatal or postnatal check-ups while the incessant bombings, fleeing for safety and anxiety are leading to premature births. Hospital in Rafah. 5 delivery beds. 78 deliveries in one night. In the West Bank: > [@](#): > > Since 7 October 2023 and as of 26 February, 400 Palestinians have been killed, including 102 children, and as of 23 February, 4,575 Palestinians have been injured, including 707 children, in conflict-related incidents across the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Israel. Much more at the link. > **[Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #126 - occupied...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-126)** > > Situation Report in English on occupied Palestinian territory and 1 other country about Contributions, Coordination and more; published on 26 Feb 2024 by OCHA After a number of high profile incidents where The Palestine Red Crescent Society have coordinated with Israeli troops and either been fired upon, or their staff or the people they were trying to rescue, were killed (the most high profile incident was the killing of [Hind Rajab](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Hind_Rajab)), he PRCS have: > [@](#): > > The Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) suspended all humanitarian coordination procedures on medical missions in the Gaza Strip for the next 48 hours, due to the failure to ensure the safety and security of the Society’s Emergency Medical Services teams, the wounded and the sick in PRCS hospitals, centers and ambulances as a result of the lack of commitment and respect of the Israeli occupation forces to the procedures and coordination mechanisms agreed upon with the United Nations’ organizations. > > … > > Yesterday evening, PRCS evacuated a number of patients from its Al-Amal Hospital in Khan Younis to Rafah hospitals due to their urgent need for advanced surgical medical intervention, in coordination with the United Nations Office for Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), which obtained approval from the Israeli occupation forces for this evacuation. > > … > > Despite the fact that the occupation forces knew the route of the convoy and the names and identity numbers of the staff accompanying the patients, the Israeli occupation forces intercepted the convoy for more than 7 hours and mistreated its members, especially the accompanying PRCS medical staff, and arrested three medics, releasing one of them after many hours. > > This incident is not the first incident during which the Israeli occupation forces failed to respect the coordination conducted by the United Nations organizations with them, as they previously targeted PRCS ambulances on their way to evacuate injured people from various areas in the Gaza Strip, prevented and obstructed relief aid convoys from reaching specific areas in the Gaza Strip, especially in Gaza and its north, and it continues to detain a number of PRCS staff. > More airdrops into Gaza, from Jordan, with assistance from France: > **[Jordan air-drops aid into Gaza with help of French plane](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240226-jordan-air-drops-aid-into-gaza-with-help-of-french-plane)** > > The Jordanian army on Monday said it had carried out a series of humanitarian aid drops of food and other supplies into the besieged Gaza Strip, one of them by a French army plane. About the only way food can get to the north at the moment. Nowhere near enough: but better than nothing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3763 "2024-02-27T09:22:01Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Is anyone actually taking this position? Well, I don’t really see a different way to read this: > [@Smapti](#): > > It is because Israel’s cause is just that their acts are permissible. That was covering _anything_ Israel has done so far. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3764 "2024-02-27T11:50:08Z")
I’m getting news alerts from several sources that a cease fire is being negotiated, and may take place before Ramadan. In what might or might not be contradictory news, i got another news alert that Israel believes it is close to reaching one of the architects of October 7, but he’s deep in a tunnel, surrounded by many of the remaining hostages. In the one hand, if that’s true, it may be very hard for the Israeli troops to actual get at the guy, but in the other, if they do, that’s actually something that could be a concrete stopping point. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3765 "2024-02-27T13:37:42Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Israel is a special place that has a special right to exist and a special right to protect its existence that other western nations will always support Israel is an 80 year old experiment of the UN. It is not a Davidic monarchy and has no connection with the past. The current government did not let the crisis of Oct 7 go to waste. It is being used to recolonize Gaza. US aid is defending our political and military investment in Israel, not supporting it’s mythology. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3766 "2024-02-27T14:01:58Z")
Just to be clear: you’re quoting me saying that, but not quoting the part where I said _“I don’t think that”_. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3767 "2024-02-27T14:04:41Z")
Moderating: @Crane: Don’t do that. Be more careful in either how you select your quotes or how you frame them. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3768 "2024-02-27T14:48:13Z")
Sorry - I honestly missed the point, the quote was incomplete. I apologize profusely. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3769 "2024-02-27T15:07:16Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Israel is an 80 year old experiment of the UN. Israel is an older obligation that the UN inherited from the League of Nations to devolve sovereignty over the territory that the Ottoman Empire held prior to World War I. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3770 "2024-02-27T15:29:04Z")
You’re both right? (I’m saying that a lot today, hmmm.) Yes, the UN inherited the sovereignty-devolution issue for post-Ottoman Palestine. But the particular Partition Plan that was adopted in 1947 is AFAICT just one of many possible ways that the situation could have shaken out. Same goes for the subsequent deviations from that plan in response to various geopolitical events, of course. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3771 "2024-02-27T16:45:00Z")
The particulars of the partition could have been different, but the fact that some part of it needed to be a “national home for the Jewish people” was built in to the treaty obligation, not a mere “experiment”. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3772 "2024-02-27T16:49:08Z")
The point is that Israel is a recent invention. It’s a high tech, modern state with colonial ambitions. It is not defending itself by obliterating a territory it has held under siege for years, It is clearing the way for future expansion. ‘Self Defense’ and ‘Never Again’ are propaganda slogans for local consumption. The goal of the IDF was not to eliminate Hamas and rescue the hostages. The goal was to totally destroy the infrastructure of Gaza and exterminate a significant percent of the Gaza population. That is being accomplished and will allow resettlement under the guise of reconstruction. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3773 "2024-02-27T21:05:21Z")
If any of this is true - and I do not believe it is - why in the world would Israel have waited until 10/7/2023 to start this? Israel carried out a half-dozen prior operations against Hamas that could have provided pretext for such a thing if that was really their goal. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2024, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3774 "2024-02-28T03:10:19Z")
Hmmm, now you’re both wrong? It’s MHO of course, but I really don’t think Israel’s actions in this war can be adequately understood by any one consistent rational explanation, irrespective of whether the explanation assumes Israel’s motives to be nefarious or honorable. I get the very strong impression that Israel’s current strategy is being driven by an incoherent mix of motives including expansionist opportunism, specific legitimate military/counterterrorism aims, political grandstanding, various populace-level fears with varying levels of justifiability, wishful thinking, and vengeful bloodthirstiness. I seriously doubt whether even the people waging this war are totally clear on exactly which reason(s) are motivating which actions. And Hamas, of course, has its own set of disparate, complicated and sometimes contradictory motives. I just don’t think any of this shitshow can be validly explained in a nice neat way as the deliberate consequences of any clearly thought-out set of consistent goals. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2024, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3775 "2024-02-28T11:06:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I get the very strong impression that Israel’s current strategy is being driven by an incoherent mix of motives including expansionist opportunism, specific legitimate military/counterterrorism aims, political grandstanding, various populace-level fears with varying levels of justifiability, wishful thinking, and vengeful bloodthirstiness. I seriously doubt whether even the people waging this war are totally clear on exactly which reason(s) are motivating which actions. > > And Hamas, of course, has its own set of disparate, complicated and sometimes contradictory motives. I just don’t think any of this shitshow can be validly explained in a nice neat way as the deliberate consequences of any clearly thought-out set of consistent goals. This is pretty much how I feel. It’s not credible that a decade or more of malevolent, incompetent, far-right leadership hasn’t impacted how the IDF trains, recruits, and fights. And it doesn’t take very many wannabe fascists and enablers within the IDF (or any military) to allow atrocities. I don’t believe this Israeli leadership, and possibly even this IDF, can actually defeat Hamas, much less make a better Gaza. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=181) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=183)