# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 185
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2024, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3816 "2024-03-03T19:57:13Z")
I also just found this from a few weeks ago showing that it isn’t only me who thinks that Bibi is using the war to his advantage. The people of Israel seem to agree “When asked what values motivate Netanyahu in his wartime decision-making, 53% in the Channel 13 survey said they believe he is primarily motivated by personal interest, and only 33% said he is acting for the good of the country.” [https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-gives-national-unity-commanding-lead-over-likud-with-a-center-bloc-of-69-mks/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-gives-national-unity-commanding-lead-over-likud-with-a-center-bloc-of-69-mks/) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2024, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3817 "2024-03-03T22:45:23Z")
The cease fire agreement isn’t anything new. Basically Hamas is offering a few hostages if Israel stops fighting, withdraws, and feeds them. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2024, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3818 "2024-03-03T23:40:30Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > Really if the article characterizes it accurately the only reasonable conclusion is that Israel wants “minimal aid” as Netanyahu says. …an important part of the articles you cited that shouldn’t be overlooked is this: > [@](#): > > In one instance **on February 14, COGAT rejected a truck-load of sleeping bags “because they were the color green, and green means military and according to the 2008 list, military is dual use,”** the same humanitarian official told CNN. Many, if not most of these restrictions aren’t new. They aren’t unique to this war. Green sleeping bags have been classified as “dual use” _since 2008_. Whenever someone tells you that Gaza was “free from occupation” since 2005, this is a reminder that Israel fully controlled who and what came into Gaza and what was allowed out. As for the airdrops: here is some important context, posted by Former USAID Assistant Admin Democracy Dave Harden: > [@](#): > > Further, 50,000 meal rations represents, perhaps, one truck load of food assistance. > > Bottom line, if these reports regarding air drops are correct, there will be no meaningful humanitarian impact in Gaza. > > … > > In essence, the Biden administration will airdrop an inconsequential amount of food into a chaotic, unsecured Gaza for the benefit of the strongest, most networked. > For more context, humanitarian agencies have been saying that at least 500 trucks of aid per day is required in Gaza. At the moment, only between 60 and 80 trucks on average are being allowed through. At 33,000 meals in yesterdays air drop from the US, that represents _less than a full truck of aid_. This is performative. Theatre. _Expensive_ theatre. It makes the US look like they are doing something when its literally a drop in the bucket. Harden argues for more crossings to be opened. > [@](#): > > It is feasible however to establish on the ground sterile areas at multiple crossing points to get aid much closer, in greater bulk, to the people in need. Here is how. > > Karem Shalom, the largest - and prior to Oct 7, the only goods crossing point - has a bulk grain conveyor, where truckloads of grain, not bags, are conveyed from Israel into a sterile zone. > > Other palletized cargo is off loaded, inspected, and reloaded on a second truck that transports the goods into a sterile zone inside Gaza. > > From there, a Gazan intermediary facilitates the transport through the sterile zone to Gazan truckers on the west of the sterile zone, and then onward to population centers. This is the system. > > … > > These sterile zones are akin to two sets of virtual security doors - open the eastern zone first while the western zone is locked, move the aid in, then lock the eastern zone. Next unlock the western zone, and allow Gazan truckers, UN, NGOs to transport the aid. > > Airdropping 50,000 meal rations is symbolic. Establishing multiple crossings, with deep sterile zones, and enough aid to meet the humanitarian need will blunt the humanitarian needs more effectively and efficiently. As for worrying about “Hamas gaining control of the food”: the biggest problem with getting food to the north right now is that the security situation has deteriorated. UN convoys have been shot at by the IDF. And when they reach the north, because Hamas are no longer effectively in control, and the police have abandoned their jobs, the food convoys get overwhelmed. And when Israel is put in charge of food distribution? They end up shooting at people trying to get food. The reason why there isn’t a food security distribution problem in Rafah is that the local authorities still have control. “But Hamas” isn’t the problem here. A particularly horrific story amongst a sea of horrific stories here, from ITV: > [@](#): > > A disabled [Palestinian](https://www.itv.com/news/topic/palestine) man was killed with a “direct shot to the neck” while being held in a hospital by Israeli soldiers on the [Gaza](https://www.itv.com/news/topic/gaza) Strip, ITV News understands. > > The shooting of Najeeb Salem Sadeq occurred just hours before [ITV News captured footage of an unarmed civilian being shot dead](https://www.itv.com/news/2024-02-09/gaza-white-flag-shooting-itv-news-analyses-how-the-incident-unfolded)while walking in a group waving a white flag, in the same area of Khan Younis. > > The 39-year-old, who had severe learning difficulties, had fled to the nearby Al Khair hospital with his parents and siblings after the apartment block where they lived was hit by an artillery strike. > > There, Najeeb was separated from his father - who was led away by Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) soldiers already stationed at the hospital - and was held with a group of women, children, and older people due to his disability. > > … > > "When it was 2am or 1.30am, Najeeb was screaming more and more because he hadn’t taken his medication. He was freaking out from the gunfire noise and the bombing. > > "A soldier called for me because I could communicate in Arabic and Hebrew. > > "He said to me: ‘silence this man who screams, he has got five chances, if he screams again, I will shoot him and silence him forever.’ > > "When Najeeb screamed, I made him sit down and he was saying: ‘I don’t want to be here, I don’t want to be here’. > > “Another soldier who was on the other entrance came and shot him, and he died,” he added. > > Najeeb’s mother, who is almost blind, heard the gunshots but couldn’t see what had happened to her son. > > “When I told her Najeeb is dead, she groped his arms and legs and cried ‘oh my son, oh my love’,” his sister said. > > … > > In response to the killing of Najeeb, an IDF spokesperson told ITV News: "In response to Hamas’ barbaric attacks, the IDF is operating to dismantle Hamas military and administrative capabilities. > > "In stark contrast to Hamas’ intentional attacks on Israeli men, women, and children, the IDF follows international law and takes feasible precautions to mitigate civilian harm. > > “Given the ongoing exchanges of fire, remaining in an active combat zone has inherent risks. The IDF will continue to counter threats while persisting to mitigate harm to civilians.” > **['He didn't understand': Disabled man shot dead in Gaza hospital by IDF | ITV...](https://www.itv.com/news/2024-03-01/he-didnt-understand-disabled-man-shot-dead-in-gaza-hospital-by-idf)** > > The shooting of Najeeb Salem Sadeq occurred just hours before ITV News filmed an unarmed civilian being shot dead whilst walking in a group waving a white flag. | ITV National News ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2024, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3819 "2024-03-03T23:57:48Z")
The IDF has a lot of conscripts, but do they send people against their will into combat, as opposed to a support role? If not, I wonder who are all the volunteers? Self-selection may explain why it is not a complete surprise that many of them are gutless villains with a complete disregard for innocent lives and the laws of war. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3820 "2024-03-04T00:10:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Bottom line, if these reports regarding air drops are correct, there will be no meaningful humanitarian impact in Gaza. > > In essence, the Biden administration will airdrop an inconsequential amount of food into a chaotic, unsecured Gaza for the benefit of the strongest, most networked. President Biden said this will be robust and not a one and done event. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3821 "2024-03-04T00:29:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > President Biden said this will be robust and not a one and done event. … President Biden has said a lot of things about this war. We’ve got no reason to trust him here. Even if they drop the same amount of food every single day, it’s still the equivalent of _less than a single truck_. And that assumes it even reaches people, and isn’t dropped in the ocean where nobody can reach it. The US airdrops were over southwestern Gaza and the town of Mawasi. And this is even more telling. Food is desperately needed in the north. But al-Mawasi is the “safe zone.” It’s a town, original population 1,400, that Israel have been trying to force people into since the start of the war. There is _nothing there_. It tells you just how much disconnect there is between the Biden administration and the humanitarian agencies on the ground. There wasn’t even any coordination. It wasn’t dropped where it was most needed, but where Israel told them to drop it. > [@](#): > > A senior administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the drop had not been coordinated with any groups on the ground in Gaza but U.S. officials had seen civilians approaching the aid and distributing it among themselves. > > … > > “We’ve been monitoring the location where the assistance was dropped,” the official said. > > A second U.S. official told Reuters the airdrops took place over southwestern Gaza and the town of Mawasi. [https://www.reuters.com/world/us-carries-out-first-airdrop-aid-into-gaza-officials-say-2024-03-02/#:~:text=A%20second%20U.S.%20official%20told,that%20Israel%20supported%20the%20measure](https://www.reuters.com/world/us-carries-out-first-airdrop-aid-into-gaza-officials-say-2024-03-02/#:~:text=A%20second%20U.S.%20official%20told,that%20Israel%20supported%20the%20measure). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3822 "2024-03-04T01:46:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > it’s still the equivalent of _less than a single truck_. A C-130 has 35% more volume than a 53 ft trailer and a C-17 is 5 times larger. Airlifting food will get it to places the trucks aren’t reaching and will better distribute it. on top of that they’re planning on delivery by sea. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3823 "2024-03-04T02:48:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > A C-130 has 35% more volume than a 53 ft trailer and a C-17 is 5 times larger. …the measure here is the number of meal rations dropped, not how much volume a C-130 has, and they are dropping less than a truckload in the only designated “safe” zone in Gaza. > [@](#): > > Airlifting food will get it to places the trucks aren’t reaching and will better distribute it. > [@euro-med-monitor](#): > > Residents testified that they received recorded messages from the army informing them that humanitarian aid is only permitted in the area of Al-Mawasi, as the army is still “operating forcefully” in other areas. > **[Israel blocks entry of food and aid supplies, kills starving civilians in...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israel-blocks-entry-food-and-aid-supplies-kills-starving-civilians-attempt-forcibly-displace-palestinians-northern-gaza-enar)** > > News and Press Release in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory about Food and Nutrition and Protection and Human Rights; published on 1 Mar 2024 by Euro-Med Monitor The food is being dropped into places that the trucks have no problem getting to, that already have security and corridors set up, already established distribution networks. These are random drops, not coordinated with any of the humanitarian agencies on the ground, that probably won’t end up in the hands of the people who desperately need it. > [@Magiver](#): > > on top of that they’re planning on delivery by sea. This famine was inevitable. I was warning about it in this thread _months ago_. So was every single humanitarian agency. It isn’t a difficult equation. If you raze the fields, slow food deliveries to a trickle, and create a security situation where food cannot be safely distributed, people will _starve_. And that’s where we are now. With children starting to die daily from malnutrition. That they are only thinking about “delivery by sea” now, when the solution is obviously to open up more corridors and let in more food by truck and something that should have been done months ago, is the problem here. We aren’t talking about some natural event. This isn’t an “act of god.” Food isn’t getting through to Palestinians in Gaza because _Israel isn’t allowing it._ Its a constant effort to reframe what is happening on the ground. Airdrops is a public relations win for the US even though they aren’t really doing anything. And by doing so they allow Israel’s siege of Gaza to continue unabated. They are allowing in less trucks now than they were a month ago. And none of those trucks are getting through to the north. They said from the outset that this is what they were going to do. And _this is what they are doing_. The solution isn’t airdrops or delivering by ocean. It’s putting public pressure on Israel to let the trucks through. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3824 "2024-03-04T03:07:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This famine was inevitable. I was warning about it in this thread _months ago_ It’s a war. All Hamas has to do is surrender. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3825 "2024-03-04T03:24:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > All Hamas has to do is surrender. …“But Hamas” _strikes again_. A reminder: collective punishment of the civilian population in an attempt to convince a terror organization to capitulate is a _warcrime_. Deliberately starving millions of people is a warcrime no matter the motivation. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3826 "2024-03-04T06:15:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s a war No, it’s a one-sided genocide of a civilian population. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3827 "2024-03-04T07:48:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This is performative. Theatre. _Expensive_ theatre Compare this weak effort to the [Berlin Airlift](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade), where US & UK (and others) air dropped off (at peak) 12,941 tons per day. There was an aeroplane entering Berlin airspace every 30 seconds. And this was before the heavy lift aircraft available today. The “throw some boxes out of a C-130” strategy is just bullshit. I will, however, attempt to disagree on the expense. I don’t think any aid to people in a traumatic situation is expensive. Rather I would like the US (and Europe) to spend more money on humanitarian aid. Just not sure if Israel would allow it. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3828 "2024-03-04T08:13:32Z")
Too late to edit: yes, I understand Gaza does not have a functional airport, but also modern military airdrop capability is vastly higher than it was in 1948 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3829 "2024-03-04T18:47:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, it’s a one-sided genocide of a civilian population. Tell it to Hamas. They seem to think it’s a war and keep on fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3830 "2024-03-04T18:49:24Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > Too late to edit: yes, I understand Gaza does not have a functional airport, but also modern military airdrop capability is vastly higher than it was in 1948 MUCH larger aircraft capable of air drops and they can choose between dropping pallets or loose dropping the food packs. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3831 "2024-03-04T18:50:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Tell it to Hamas. Somehow doubt the sniped grandmothers and dead NICU babies were Hamas… > [@Magiver](#): > > They seem to think it’s a war and keep on fighting. They’re delusional fanatics. What’s the IOF’s excuse? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3832 "2024-03-04T18:51:39Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > The “throw some boxes out of a C-130” strategy is just bullshit. If you read the cites it’s suppose to be an ongoing event that will also include sea launched support. > [@scudsucker](#): > > Just not sure if Israel would allow it. They have no choice. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3833 "2024-03-04T19:20:33Z")
While I doubt the IDF would fire a missile to down a US C-130 delivering aid, they do have a choice. They could either negotiate a means to deliver that aid, most usefully by allowing the backed up truck convoy to enter, or they could shoot down a USAF plane and thereby force an invocation of Article 5 of the NATO agreement. I doubt that it would get as far as that, seeing as the [USS Liberty](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident) incident did not, but as teenagers these days say, “fuck around, find out”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3834 "2024-03-04T19:36:05Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > While I doubt the IDF would fire a missile to down a US C-130 delivering aid, they do have a choice. About the same choice as dropping nuclear weapon on Gaza. Not going to happen. The same applies to any supplies brought in by sea. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2024, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3835 "2024-03-04T19:43:56Z")
I accept that, so what reason do you have to argue why aid is blocked by road? There are huge numbers of trucks loaded with aid and supplies waiting at Rafah. And they will not get north. People are starving to death, both north and south. Yes, Hamas has embedded itself in the population - but there are people in that population like my mum, my brother, my sister, myself - who do not involve ourselves in politics. There are innocent people, dying, because Israel doesn’t care. And yes, there are Hamas supporters dying too. How much collateral damage is OK with you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=184) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=186)