# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 189
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3896 "2024-03-07T21:07:02Z")
[quote=“EddyTeddyFreddy, post:3895, topic:991317”] Tonight in the speech, the President will announce that he’s directing the US military to lead an emergency mission to establish a port in the Mediterranean on the Gaza coast that can receive large ships carrying food, water medicine, and temporary shelters,” a senior administration official said Thursday. How long before it will receive an air strike by the IDF? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2024, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3897 "2024-03-08T01:55:39Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Newsflash: most governments, by which I mean the people with the power and the money, _don’t care about you or any other “little people”_ Well, in a democracy they care about your votes so they’ll try to keep you able to vote to some degree. …newsflash: enough people will be making a decision not to vote for Biden and his administration at the next election because they believe this his administration is complicit with Israels genocide in Gaza. And there might just be enough people sitting out the next election in strategic states that it may well lose the election for the Democrats. Those are the consequences in a democracy “don’t care about the little people”, even care enough to try and earn their vote. > [@Broomstick](#): > > You’d have to be an idiot not to see that starvation was inevitable given Israel’s stated intentions, they just didn’t expect anyone to care. If you are onboard with the idea that Biden and co are _complicit_ with the genocide, then that’s okay with me. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Well no, our government is not on the side of the Palestinians. I’m sorry, you weren’t aware of that? Of course, I’m aware of that. You literally quoted me saying “and I don’t think they are.” > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > Saudi was completely transparent about their deliberate plan to starve out Yemeni civilians in Houthi-controlled areas, and the US helped them in those efforts more or less the whole way basically because not enough of the world was up in arms about it. I’ll be honest, I wasn’t paying that much attention when this happened, to my eternal chagrin. I’m paying attention _now_. And I think that Gaza has opened not only my eyes to this, but to millions of people like me who tended to not look beyond the official narratives. > [@cmkeller](#): > > This post is entirely about Israel’s motive for invading Gaza post-10/7. There is no context here that speaks to anything else. And I’ll say what I said again: at this stage? Motives don’t really matter. > [@cmkeller](#): > > Just because Ben-Gvir is a minister in the Knesset does not mean that his statements represent the position of the government regarding their execution of the war. I was referring to statements that had literally been _made that day_. Because it isn’t just Ben-Gvir. Once again, I’ll refer you to the South African Submission to the International Court of Justice, page 59, Section D, titled _“Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials and Others.”_ > **[South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf](https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf)** > > 1521.44 KB There is absolutely no shortage of quotes in that document that were compiled months ago. And there are no shortage of quotes from Israeli leadership every other week that continue down this line. > [@cmkeller](#): > > You quote from doctors who claim that Israel is wantonly destroying hospitals that contain no traces of terrorist activity, I haven’t _just_ quoted doctors. I’ve cited the World Health Organization often, and many other humanitarian agencies and NGO’s on the ground as well. I’ve extensively quoted from western media sources including one that actually managed to get into Gaza and report directly from one of the hospitals. And yes, Israel are wantonly destroying hospitals with no terrorist or tunnels in sight. Heres a video posted by Eliya Cohen cheerfully bulldozing the Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital, the only dedicated cancer hospital in Gaza, to the ground. > Do you know how many hospitals are currently still functional in Gaza? 4 . 4 out of _36 hospitals_. 32 hospitals have either been destroyed or put out of action. > [@cmkeller](#): > > the articles I read speak of hundreds of terrorists surrendering on hospital grounds Those articles (many that I’ve read) have _claimed_ that hundreds of terrorists have surrendered. But watch this video: > Clearly the same people. Clearly the same weapons. Clearly the scene was staged. How many people in that video stripped to their underwear do you think were Hamas terrorists? How many of them ended up being released? Where were they taken? Did they have access to the Red Cross? And the evidence they were terrorists, is that the same as the evidence that those UNRWA workers were terrorists, that Israel never produced? > [@cmkeller](#): > > weapons caches being found in hospital storage rooms, From the Guardian: > [@The Guardian](#): > > Even the videos produced so far have raised questions under scrutiny. A BBC analysis found the footage of an IDF spokesperson showing the apparent discovery of a bag containing a gun behind an MRI scanning machine, had been taped hours before the arrival of the journalists to whom he was supposedly showing it. > > **In a video shown later, the number of guns in the bag had doubled.** The IDF claimed its video of what it found at the hospital was unedited, filmed in a single take, but the BBC analysis found it had been edited. > **[IDF evidence so far falls well short of al-Shifa hospital being Hamas HQ](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/17/idf-evidence-so-far-falls-well-short-of-al-shifa-hospital-being-hamas-hq)** > > Footage to date fails to prove Gaza complex was nerve centre for attacks on Israel, as military had claimed A reminder that International Humanitarian Law both acknowledges and allows for weapons to be stored in “hospital storage rooms” so that combatants could be disarmed when taken for treatment. We don’t know if these were actual “caches” or simply arms that were stored, but the videos that the IDF have released, from what was allegedly found (and mysteriously grew in size) behind the MRI machine to the pistol allegedly found hidden in the baby incubator: these aren’t things that would require a hospital to get shut down. > [@cmkeller](#): > > and tunnels dug directly underneath. The mere existence of tunnels isn’t enough to make a hospital a target under the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian Law. And some of those tunnels (under Al Shifa) were built by Israel themselves decades ago. That’s how _they knew they were there_. Both the New York Times and the Washington Post both published investigations into Al Shifa and found that Israel’s claims largely didn’t hold up. But even if I give you Al Shifa, you’ve still got 31 other hospitals to explain. > [@cmkeller](#): > > You’ve already declared that you wouldn’t believe anything the IDF says, so why bother arguing with you that what they reported doing has a military/defensive justification rather than being wantonly genocidal? We don’t need to argue. If you are that confident in your sources, then the evidence must be pretty clear. I’m open to changing my mind. But we need to be pretty clear here: the standard for what the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian Law allows for when hospitals are targeted is set at an extremely high threshold. If terrorists were operating out of the hospitals, it isn’t enough to just _make that claim_ and be done with it. There would have been actionable intelligence _before_ the siege of each hospital happened, and clear evidence for each detainee _after_ each hospital were raided. That is the standard you would be expected to meet. I don’t need the names of the terrorist subjects. Just evidence that this evidence (both pre- and post-raids of each hospital) exists. Because I want you to examine the underlying premise here. Why would terrorists be using hospitals in the first place? The idea is that hospitals are “shields”, and that hospitals are protected, and that would mean they could operate out of them without fear. But it became very obvious early on in this war that Israel didn’t care about that. And we watched as they systematically surrounded, placed under siege, then eventually raided each hospital, from the north to the south, one by one. Everybody _knew what was coming_. It followed the exact same pattern over and over again. And when I first started posting about Nasser Hospital several weeks ago, the writing was on the wall. I shared when the hospital was first surrounded, and when the buildings around the hospital began to get targeted. I shared when hospital staff started to stay home in droves, knowing perfectly well if they went into work they were likely to be arrested, accused of being a terrorist, stripped to their underwear, and taken away to who-knows-where. This was _weeks_ before the raid. Everyone knew it was going to happen. So why on earth would hundreds of terrorist stay behind? On what planet does that make any sense? If hospital workers were smart enough to go “heck, our hospitals next, I’m staying well away from there!” then why would hundreds of terrorists remain, and when the hospital got raided, not even put up a fight? The reality is that those who stayed behind were fucking heroes. We know who they are. We have their names. They are actual doctors and nurses and paramedics and cleaners and people who said that they wouldn’t abandon their patients. They stayed behind even though they knew what was coming. There is no military/defensive justification for shutting down a healthcare system. There is no military/defensive justification for shutting down 32 hospitals. Only 4 hospitals, working several times over capacity and only able to service those that are close to them, remain. The Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian Law require that hospitals not be targeted unless they were being “used for acts harmful to the enemy.” And if they _are_ being used for acts harmful to the enemy, that once those acts are nuetralised, the attacking power must do everything it can to keep the hospital operational. And that clearly hasn’t happened here. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2024, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3898 "2024-03-08T02:58:10Z")
…some context for the “emergency” mission to establish a port. It appears to be connected to the Amalthea Initiative, the Cypriot plan laid out in November to do this very thing. > [@](#): > > Cyprus’ 25-page long plan, called Amalthea Initiative (named after the foster mother of Zeus in Greek mythology) outlines how humanitarian aid would be collected in an operations center based in the southern Cypriot city of Larnaca, which has a port and airport, and where a coordination center with 33 countries is already operating. > > … > > Aid would be collected, inspected and stored in Cyprus and then sent to Gaza on vessels checked daily by a joint committee including Israel. The vessels would be accompanied by warships to a designated spot identified on the coast of Gaza, from where it would be sent to a safe, neutral area. > > … > > “The Cypriot proposal is well thought out,” Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said according to a readout of his comments during the conference. “The most difficult aspect is to identify a suitable landing zone in southern Gaza, to create the necessary port infrastructure and to ensure the safety of the route, which will require the cooperation of all parties involved.” > **[EU throws weight behind Cypriot plan to ship aid to Gaza](https://www.politico.eu/article/cyprus-humanitarian-aid-gaza-european-union-israel-hamas-shipments/)** > > The plan is to allow Gazans access to big volumes of aid carried by ship, rather than just the small quantities brought by truck from Egypt. The plan was actually followed through on, _except_ for the port. From early January: > [@](#): > > Amalthea Initiative update. > > The first shipment of Humanitarian aid under the Cyprus Led humanitarian effort to Gaza is officially underway. > > The first ship under the initiative RFA Lyme Bay has docked in Port Said Egypt and is currently offloading > > 87 tonnes of lifesaving aid arrived in Egypt. > > Delivered by the Royal Fleet Auxiliary from Cyprus, all aid has been pre-checked by the joint committee to include Israel in order to avoid unnecessary delays at Rafah border crossing and will now make its way to the people of Gaza. > > > Intelschizo @Schizointel So the “sea bridge” has already been established, a system to inspect the cargo before it goes into Gaza already exists and has been in operation for at least three months now. It just needs the port. Which is why this is so incredibly frustrating. This will be announced at the State of the Union, again, to divert attention away from the humanitarian disaster that is happening on the ground. If the US had jumped onto this months ago, the port would have been built by now. There are countries and humanitarian agencies around the world that have been working tirelessly raising funds, putting in volunteer work, many putting their lives _at risk_ to help Palestinians trapped in Gaza. None of them are making a big song-and-dance about it. The port (as long as it’s used only for bringing in humanitarian aid) will be a welcome contribution to the aid effort. But it’s part of a _much larger international aid effort_, and it’s coming _much too late._ (they are estimating at least 1-2 months to get it built) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2024, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3899 "2024-03-08T04:29:00Z")
A port would have long term capacity but there are military craft specifically designed to land on a beach. an [LCAC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Craft_Air_Cushion) will carry 60 tons. They might be used to bring in the infrastructure for the port but there’s no reason why they can’t bring in food too. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2024, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3900 "2024-03-08T08:37:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …newsflash: enough people will be making a decision not to vote for Biden and his administration at the next election because they believe this his administration is complicit with Israels genocide in Gaza. And there might just be enough people sitting out the next election in strategic states that it may well lose the election for the Democrats. > > Those are the consequences in a democracy “don’t care about the little people”, even care enough to try and earn their vote. If they do that and Trump wins as a consequence then I fully expect Trump to pull any and all aid from Gaza and throw his administration’s weight entirely behind Netanyahu and his narrative. While the situation for Gaza right now is horrific under Trump it will be even worse. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3901 "2024-03-09T07:06:45Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > the risk of people consuming unsafe items. That’s not the only risk… > **[Five killed in Gaza aid drop parachute failure - reports](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68514467)** > > The US, Jordan, Egypt, France, the Netherlands and Belgium have been dropping aid into Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3902 "2024-03-09T12:34:51Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > So yes, absolutely keep doing it if there is truly no other way. But there is another way, so finite time and resources would be better spent on that. Unless those alternatives take weeks to put into place, in which case you need to find a way to get food/supplies to people so they can survive long enough to benefit from the better delivery methods. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because it isn’t a desperation move. > > It’s a “we don’t want to offend Israel, we are getting hammered in the polls, let’s get some cheap PR” move. If you had said that a couple months ago I’d agree with you, but we’re not a couple months ago, we’re now, and due to _[reasons]_ we have the current situation. At this time we have people actively dying from lack of food and no other realistic way to get them anything other than airdrops, with the full knowledge that that might not work. That’s what makes it a desperation method. If you want to argue things should have been allowed to get to this state I agree completely but after the rant about how awful, disgusting, and morally bankrupt the situation is I want to hear a plan to do something about it. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And that’s why this strategy is being criticized. Not only are they bending over backwards with the strategy, they didn’t even coordinate with humanitarian agencies on the ground to find out where the best place to do food drops were or what food would be needed. That’s in part because, as already noted multiple times, air drops are far from an ideal solution to supplying people with stuff. The “best place” for them is an open, flat territory which may or may not be exactly where the hungry people are located. That’s dictated by the mechanics involved in dropping stuff out of the sky with unguided parachutes. You can’t precision drop them at a precise address on a city street. You don’t want them getting hung up on rubble or coming down directly on refugee tents. The “best food” is stuff that can be packed to survive the drop, including a potentially very rough landing. It might also, depending on circumstances, be stuff that’s already packed and ready to drop while more suitable rations are being assembled into a package for this purpose. My understanding is that the USAF went with MRE’s on pallets because they keep those ready to go for supplying our own troops so that could be put into play immediately, but getting together something like HDR’s [(Humanitarian Daily Rations)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_daily_ration) would require packing things up for an air drop. If you want to argue that something else should be used that might take even more prep time to get ready to drop. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > As I’ve said over and over again: more food is better than nothing. But let’s not pretend that this is anything more than it is. It isn’t a genuine attempt to head off famine. Yeah, I don’t see anyone here trying to make that claim. > [@Magiver](#): > > The MRE’s can be dropped individually without parachutes making it even easier for people to forage for them individually without having to line up for trucks in the hopes of getting anything. Huh. I did not know that. But that also means that the packaging is a factor. I don’t think you could drop, say, a 20 pound sack of flour like that without it bursting open. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3903 "2024-03-09T13:19:09Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > At this time we have people actively dying from lack of food and no other realistic way to get them anything other than airdrops, with the full knowledge that that might not work. …its a “we don’t want to offend Israel, we are getting hammered in the polls, let’s get some cheap PR” move." It isn’t a serious attempt at doing anything about the deliberate policy of Isreal to starve the people of Gaza. Because throwing a few pieces of bread at starving people isn’t a realistic response here. > [@Broomstick](#): > > I want to hear a plan to do something about it. Tell Israel that the US won’t give them any more aid money or arms until the siege is lifted. America has the power to do that. There is no shortage of food. There is no shortage of trucks. It’s all literally waiting there at the border for permission to go in. Thats the plan. And if you tell me thats not going to happen? Then the Biden administration, and, if he gets voted in at the next election, the American people, _will be complicit in this genocide_. Because that’s the only thing that will prevent famine. It won’t be the airdrops. It won’t be the port that might not even happen. Gaza needs food. It needs water. It needs fuel. It needs medical supplies. It needs shelter. It needs waste removed. There are bodies being buried in the streets. There are still bodies trapped under the rubble. There are estimated to be 17,000 orphans in Gaza. No healthcare system. Almost no hospitals any more. There is no other plan that will prevent mass death. Its either put pressure on Israel or hundreds of thousands of people will die. > [@Broomstick](#): > > That’s in part because, as already noted multiple times, air drops are far from an ideal solution to supplying people with stuff. Then open the borders and let the trucks in. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Yeah, I don’t see anyone here trying to make that claim. It such a pathetically small amount of food that I’m wondering why we are talking about it at all. Sure, it’s better than nothing. But it’s _barely_ more than nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3904 "2024-03-09T14:19:18Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Tell Israel that the US won’t give them any more aid money or arms until the siege is lifted. I’m on board with that but as I keep saying it’s not realistic to expect that to happen given our current government. That’s true whether it’s Biden or Trump in office. By all means, keep asking/lobbying/protesting for it because there’s that slim shadow of a chane it might work (on Biden). But waiting until that change happens isn’t addressing the immediate problem. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And if you tell me thats not going to happen? Then the Biden administration, and, if he gets voted in at the next election, the American people, _will be complicit in this genocide_. We are already complicit in this genocide. That train has left the station. The only question is whether we’ll _continue_ to be complicit or not. I agree Biden’s handling of this has been shit for the Gazans. But Trump? He’s called for Israel to “finish the problem” and shows not one whit of sympathy for the Gazans. He’s already stated he would completely bar any Gazan from entering the US for any reason, so I guess just screw the innocents. That’s on top of his proposed ban on Muslims. Any illusion that the Gazans would fare better with Trump in the White House should be dispelled. As horrible as Biden’s response has been it’s the best we’re going to get from the American government. Which is sad, deplorable, and awful but I don’t have the power to turn the ship of state around. Jumping up and down and saying “I don’t like this!” won’t change that. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because that’s the only thing that will prevent famine. Famine is already here. Preventing it would require a time machine. People are already dying, have died, from lack of food. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There is no other plan that will prevent mass death. You can’t prevent mass death - well, not without that time machine. It’s already here. _Best_ estimates are 30,000 dead in Gaza, and I suspect there are plenty more than that. It’s already here. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Then open the borders and let the trucks in. At present the only way to do that would be to invade Israel, remove its current government, and physically prevent the IDF from approaching the border. Do you really want to do that? Because I guarantee the knock-on effects would be horrific. Either we talk the current Israeli government into a change of plan, wait for their government to change, or force regime change. How well has choice #3 worked in the past? What consequences would there be to doing that to a nation that is supposed to be our ally? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It such a pathetically small amount of food that I’m wondering why we are talking about it at all. Sure, it’s better than nothing. But it’s _barely_ more than nothing. From the Talmud: _whoever saves one life saves the world entire._ If I could save but one life I would save that life, because that one life is worthy of saving. You’re right, airdrops are a pathetically small, near-futile gesture. Nonetheless, they could save a few lives, and those lives are worth saving. If that is all that we can do today then we should do it, while working to do more tomorrow. _It’s the right thing to do_ in a situation where there isn’t much rightness. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3905 "2024-03-09T15:08:21Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I’m on board with that but as I keep saying it’s not realistic to expect that to happen given our current government. That’s true whether it’s Biden or Trump in office. By all means, keep asking/lobbying/protesting for it because there’s that slim shadow of a chane it might work (on Biden). But waiting until that change happens isn’t addressing the immediate problem. …well then hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are gonna die. > [@Broomstick](#): > > We are already complicit in this genocide. That train has left the station. The only question is whether we’ll _continue_ to be complicit or not. And you will be. > [@Broomstick](#): > > I agree Biden’s handling of this has been shit for the Gazans. But Trump? He’s called for Israel to “finish the problem” and shows not one whit of sympathy for the Gazans. He’s already stated he would completely bar any Gazan from entering the US for any reason, so I guess just screw the innocents. That’s on top of his proposed ban on Muslims. Any illusion that the Gazans would fare better with Trump in the White House should be dispelled. As horrible as Biden’s response has been it’s the best we’re going to get from the American government. Which is sad, deplorable, and awful but I don’t have the power to turn the ship of state around. Jumping up and down and saying “I don’t like this!” won’t change that. I haven’t argued that Trump will be better for Gazans. Trump will be worse for Gaza. He will be worse for Americans. He will be worse for the world. But jumping up and down as if these airdrops actually mean anything won’t change a thing. It’s next to useless, it’s pathetic, and it shows how incredibly weak the US is on the world stage. And the very least I can do is here in this thread, continue to point out that this isn’t a “desperation move”, it’s PR. America doesn’t get any credit for this. Biden doesn’t get any credit for this. They call him “Genocide Joe” in much of the world now. For many, that will be his legacy. > [@Broomstick](#): > > At present the only way to do that would be to invade Israel, remove its current government, and physically prevent the IDF from approaching the border. Or they could cut off funding and arms and use every lever of diplomacy instead. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Do you really want to do that? Because I guarantee the knock-on effects would be horrific. Why would I want to do this ridiculous thing? I’ve already told you what move I would advocate, and its a much more realistic scenario than whatever it is you are talking about here. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Either we talk the current Israeli government into a change of plan, wait for their government to change, or force regime change. How well has choice #3 worked in the past? What consequences would there be to doing that to a nation that is supposed to be our ally? Why are you acting as if I would ever advocate for choice #3? And you shouldn’t assume that there will be a change in government, or that the replacement government will be anything more than maybe marginally better than the current one. The US either uses every single lever of power to get aid into Gaza, or stop sucking oxygen out of the debate. Just restart the funding to UNRWA and be done with it. > [@Broomstick](#): > > From the Talmud: > _whoever saves one life saves the world entire._ From Banquet Bear: it’s better than nothing, but let’s stop pretending that this pathetically small amount of food “saves the world entire.” > [@Broomstick](#): > > Nonetheless, they could save a few lives, and those lives are worth saving. No. They are not going to save any lives. It’s literally a lottery. If a drop doesn’t land on peoples heads and kills them, if they strike it lucky someone might get a single MRE maybe once every few weeks, maybe only once in a month. That isn’t going to save their life. There is no larger plan at play here. Nothing but randomness. No distribution strategy. > [@Broomstick](#): > > _It’s the right thing to do_ in a situation where there isn’t much rightness. The right thing to do here is to put pressure on Israel to let the trucks through. Because it isn’t just about food. Water. Shelter. Fuel. Medical supplies. Medical care. Its all staged and ready to go. Everything that Gaza needs is sitting right there, outside, in hundreds of trucks, ready to roll in. From **Save the Children:** > [@](#): > > While welcoming efforts to provide more aid into Gaza, these alternative methods of aid delivery are costly, inefficient, and a distraction from the critical solution to save the lives of children and families in Gaza: an immediate, definitive ceasefire and safe, unfettered humanitarian aid access through all border crossings and within the Strip. > > So far, the Ministry of Health in Gaza has recorded 18 child and two adult deaths from malnutrition and dehydration. With healthcare facilities barely functioning and only a minority of families able to access any services, this is the tip of the iceberg, Save the Children said. In February, Save the Children [reported](https://www.savethechildren.net/news/gaza-families-forced-forage-food-left-rats-11-million-children-face-starvation) that families were forced to forage for scraps of food left by rats and eat leaves out of desperation to survive. > > … > > _“There is already a tried and tested system in place to effectively co-ordinate aid, but trucks of food and medicines that could save lives are waiting at crossings, while children are starving just miles away. Airdrops, with no on-the-ground co-ordination of who it reaches, and maritime corridors like the one announced yesterday are no solutions to keep children alive. Neither are substitutes for unimpeded humanitarian assistance via the established land routes._ > > _“The Government of Israel and members of the international community must facilitate immediate entry of both humanitarian and commercial goods across all available border crossings, and throughout the Gaza strip._ > > _“For children in Gaza, every minute counts. We need a definitive ceasefire now, and in the meantime, we need immediate unhindered humanitarian access across all available routes.”_ > **[Alternative aid delivery in Gaza: children do not have time to wait - Save...](https://www.savethechildren.net/news/alternative-aid-delivery-gaza-children-do-not-have-time-wait-save-children)** > > Save the Children press release on alternative aid delivery including ports and airdrops From Doctors without Borders: > [@](#): > > "The US plan for a temporary pier in Gaza to increase the flow of humanitarian aid is a glaring distraction from the real problem: Israel’s [indiscriminate and disproportionate](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-staff-are-risking-their-lives-do-their-jobs) military campaign and punishing siege. The food, water, and medical supplies so desperately needed by people in Gaza are sitting just across the border. Israel needs to facilitate rather than block the flow of supplies. This is not a logistics problem; it is a political problem. Rather than look to the US military to build a work-around, the US should insist on immediate humanitarian access using the roads and entry points that already exist. > **[US plan for temporary pier in Gaza a "glaring distraction"](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/us-plan-temporary-pier-gaza-glaring-distraction)** > > The US should insist on immediate humanitarian access using existing roads and entry points. Everybody is saying the same thing. Every humanitarian agency on the ground is ready to go. They know what needs to get done. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3906 "2024-03-09T21:26:37Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But jumping up and down as if these airdrops actually mean anything won’t change a thing. It’s next to useless, it’s pathetic, and it shows how incredibly weak the US is on the world stage. Nobody here is promoting the airdrops as anything other than a gesture, but keep stuffing hay into that strawman. What, exactly, do you want the US to do? What “strong” tactics do you want to see? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And the very least I can do is here in this thread, continue to point out that this isn’t a “desperation move”, it’s PR. America doesn’t get any credit for this. Biden doesn’t get any credit for this. They call him “Genocide Joe” in much of the world now. For many, that will be his legacy. If America isn’t getting any credit then it’s hardly PR. Nor is the US the only country doing this. The US wasn’t the first to airdrop aid, it is not the only one doing, and if the US stopped other nations would continue airdrops. Why aren’t you complaining about those? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Or they could cut off funding and arms and use every lever of diplomacy instead. Yeah, and Putin could wake up tomorrow and decide invading Ukraine was a bad idea and call his army back to Russia but I don’t expect that to happen, either. What, other than “funding and arms”, do you think the US has to pressure Israel? Please do list those items, I’m very curious what levers you think we have over another country. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The US either uses every single lever of power to get aid into Gaza, or stop sucking oxygen out of the debate. Just restart the funding to UNRWA and be done with it. Although the US funding to UNRWA was stopped it still continues from many other countries. I get the impression you think the US is the only country involved in this besides Israel and that’s just not true. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > From Banquet Bear: it’s better than nothing, Then why are you complaining about it? Do you think airdrops should be completely stopped? Do you think their risks/hazards outweigh their benefits? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > Nonetheless, they could save a few lives, and those lives are worth saving. > > No. > > They are not going to save any lives. And you know that as an absolute fact because…? [The World Food Programme disagrees with you, by the way.](https://www.wfp.org/stories/airdrops-humanitarian-emergency-un-world-food-programme-sudan-syria) > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The right thing to do here is to put pressure on Israel to let the trucks through. Because it isn’t just about food. Water. Shelter. Fuel. Medical supplies. Medical care. Its all staged and ready to go. Everything that Gaza needs is sitting right there, outside, in hundreds of trucks, ready to roll in. What, exactly - other than sending in the US Marines to take over - do you think is going to convince the IDF to open up that border? Please do share with the rest of the world your solution to that problem. Contrary to rumor, Israel is not a vassal state of the US, nor is it in any way bound to obey the dictates of the US President. The Israeli government is doubling down on their genocide. We can either try an end-run around them to get aid into Gaza or we can invade and take over. Which do you want to see happen? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3907 "2024-03-09T21:56:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Nobody here is promoting the airdrops as anything other than a gesture, but keep stuffing hay into that strawman. …not a strawman. There are people in this thread who have been advocating for airdrops as a solution to the looming famine for _months_. > [@Broomstick](#): > > What, exactly, do you want the US to do? What “strong” tactics do you want to see? What part of “cut off aid and arms to Israel” isn’t clear to you here? > [@Broomstick](#): > > If America isn’t getting any credit then it’s hardly PR. _I’m_ not giving them any credit. Obviously, plenty of other people are. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Nor is the US the only country doing this. And when the other countries started doing it, nobody made a song and dance about it. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Why aren’t you complaining about those? I’m literally only responding to you because you keep bringing this up. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Yeah, and Putin could wake up tomorrow and decide invading Ukraine was a bad idea and call his army back to Russia but I don’t expect that to happen, either. If you are arguing that the US shouldn’t give Putin billions of dollars in aid and arms then you won’t get any argument from me. > [@Broomstick](#): > > What, other than “funding and arms”, do you think the US has to pressure Israel? What else do you need? Why do you need a list? This is enough. But you’ve already said it. America won’t do it. They won’t do anything to upset Israel. They are hand-in-hand with them on this. Partners in genocide. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Although the US funding to UNRWA was stopped it still continues from many other countries. I get the impression you think the US is the only country involved in this besides Israel and that’s just not true. We are talking about what else the United States could do to help prevent famine, to help prevent hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza from dying. One of those things they could do is recommence funding to UNRWA. They were previously the largest contributor to UNRWA, $422 million in 2023, 30% of the budget, and if the US restarted their contributions that would be a clear signal to all of the others that are still holding out to recommence their funding as well. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Then why are you complaining about it? Because for starters: you keep talking to me about it. So I’m responding to everything you say to me. I’ve honestly got nothing else to say about it. But if you keep coming back to me repeating the same things over and over again, I’ll keep giving you the same answers. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Do you think airdrops should be completely stopped? I think airdops should be coordinated with the humanitarian agencies on the ground, and be part of a larger, group effort to bring to bring relief to Gazans. Imagine if the US coordinated with WHO to drop urgently needed medical supplies to the hospitals. Or with UNRWA so they could clear a zone somewhere and do low altitude drops instead of high altitude ones. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Do you think their risks/hazards outweigh their benefits? I think it’s a poorly thought out strategy because the entire endeavor has political goals, not humanitarian ones. > [@Broomstick](#): > > And you know that as an absolute fact because…? > > [The World Food Programme disagrees with you, by the way.](https://www.wfp.org/stories/airdrops-humanitarian-emergency-un-world-food-programme-sudan-syria) No, they don’t “disagree” with me. You quote an article from 2021, describing a different situation and a different strategy. Northern Gaza isn’t in a “remote area.” The Erez Crossing is _right there_. > [@Broomstick](#): > > What, exactly - other than sending in the US Marines to take over - do you think is going to convince the IDF to open up that border? Please do share with the rest of the world your solution to that problem. President Biden deciding to no longer be complicit in the genocide. That would be a start. If that means threatening the next election because the people have no other levers, then so be it. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Contrary to rumor, Israel is not a vassal state of the US, nor is it in any way bound to obey the dictates of the US President. Then the United States can just cut off all funding and arms to them then. No problems, no drama. > [@Broomstick](#): > > The Israeli government is doubling down on their genocide. Because the United States has effectively told them, “it doesn’t matter what you do, we won’t do anything to stop you. We’ve got your back, no matter what you do next, including starving millions of people and causing hundreds of thousands of deaths.” > [@Broomstick](#): > > We can either try an end-run around them to get aid into Gaza or we can invade and take over. It isn’t a binary option, and nobody here, especially me, has advocated for the position of “invading and taking over.” > [@Broomstick](#): > > Which do you want to see happen? How many times do I need to say “cut off funding and arms and use every lever of diplomacy that you can?” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3908 "2024-03-09T22:43:34Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > Which do you want to see happen? > > How many times do I need to say “cut off funding and arms and use every lever of diplomacy that you can?” And when that doesn’t work… then what? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3909 "2024-03-09T23:02:05Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And when that doesn’t work… then what? …you’ve got to actually _do_ it first. The “and then what” comes later. Because if the United States actually did this, and everyone else followed suit, then Israel would run out of bombs to use on Gaza eventually. That isn’t something that can happen now. Not with an open checkbook. And eventually economic pressure will have an effect. South Africa didn’t end institutionalised racial segregation overnight. It took decades of international pressure, boycotts, protests, riots, both within and from the outside. You keep pushing and pushing and pushing. The US _blocked_ sanctions against South Africa for the longest time, just like they are blocking sanctions here. You just have to keep fighting. People in America can’t directly protest the Israeli government. But they can pressure their _own_ government to stop funding this “war.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3910 "2024-03-10T00:22:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Huh. I did not know that. But that also means that the packaging is a factor. I don’t think you could drop, say, a 20 pound sack of flour like that without it bursting open. [Parachute style.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=illg9l1ajqk) This is how they’re currently doing airdrops in Gaza. [Open container style.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n_EfYHrfoA) This shows the actual MRE’s being dumped into cardboard boxes prior to airdrop. You can see the boxes tumble out of the plane. And they’re using C-17’s which have about 4 times the capacity of a C-130. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3911 "2024-03-10T04:12:13Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But they can pressure their _own_ government to stop funding this “war.” Can the US government do this though? I’m asking, I honestly don’t know. I just recall a case in Canada where the previous government promised APCs to Saudi Arabia. Years later, the Saudis basically said, “hey Canada, where’s our APCs? We’ve got dissidents to squash!” and the government of Canada was made to feel uncomfortable about this. However, the Saudis had set up the deal in such a way that if Canada cancelled out of it, it would somehow end up costing more money than just sticking with the original arrangement. (In case you were wondering, the government of Canada released a report later that basically said “_we haven’t found any evidence_ that they have used this equipment to abuse human rights.”) In the case of Israel, I feel as though they are thoroughly aware that the continued flow of arms and funding is at least somewhat subject to whichever direction the US political wind is blowing and they are absolutely prepared for the idea that the US may stab them in the back. So if I’m Israel, I’m structuring my arms deals so that they cannot be dropped at a moment’s notice. If there are unbreakable contracts set up for the next twenty or thirty years (or even twenty or thirty months at this rate), cancelling them now would be symbolic. Also from what I could find following links on Wikipedia, Israel has been preparing for this for ten years now, as the US apparently did cut off military aid under Obama: [https://web.archive.org/web/20150729121906/http://www.worldtribune.com/2014/10/20/israel-plans-reduce-arms-u-s/](https://web.archive.org/web/20150729121906/http://www.worldtribune.com/2014/10/20/israel-plans-reduce-arms-u-s/) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3912 "2024-03-10T05:12:16Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > Can the US government do this though? …if the US government _can’t_ stop supplying arms and funds to a genocidal regime that is actively perusing ethnic cleansing, then let’s all just give up and go home. “I’m sorry, we signed a contract, and we can’t get out of it” is probably the _worst_ excuse in the world for this to continue. It’s what I would expect from a small business dealing with Amazon, not from the most powerful nation to ever exist in the history of the world. And if there _isn’t_ a “we can rip up this contract because you are committing mass-murder” clause in there somewhere, just add it, rip up the contract, and deal with the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3913 "2024-03-10T05:31:03Z")
I thought Israel was by far a net arms _exporter_, though they need the US’s business a lot more than the US needs theirs. In any case, I had the impression it was pretty much accepted wisdom by Israel that they only have a limited time window to get away with whatever they can before other countries, primarily the U.S., make a few phone calls and _make_ them stop. America certainly _can_ do it if it come to that. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3914 "2024-03-10T05:49:47Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I thought Israel was by far a net arms _exporter_, though they need the US’s business a lot more than the US needs theirs. …the WP: > [@](#): > > The United States has quietly approved and delivered more than 100 separate foreign military sales to Israel since the [Gaza war](https://www.washingtonpost.com/israel-hamas-war/?itid=lk_inline_manual_2) began Oct. 7, amounting to thousands of precision-guided munitions, small-diameter bombs, bunker busters, small arms and other lethal aid, U.S. officials told members of Congress in a recent classified briefing. > > … > > Only two approved foreign military sales to Israel have been made public since the start of conflict: [$106 million](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/12/14/israel-unguided-dumb-bombs-gaza/?itid=lk_inline_manual_5) worth of tank ammunition and [$147.5 million](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/12/30/us-weapons-sale-israel-blinken/?itid=lk_inline_manual_5) of components needed to make 155 mm shells. Those sales invited public scrutiny because the Biden administration [bypassed Congress](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/?itid=lk_inline_manual_5) to approve the packages by invoking an emergency authority. > > … > > But in the case of the 100 other transactions, known in government-speak as Foreign Military Sales or FMS, the weapons transfers were processed without any public debate because each fell under a specific dollar amount that requires the executive branch to individually notify Congress, according to U.S. officials and lawmakers who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive military matter. > > … > > The vast number of transfers since Oct. 7, largely financed by the more than $3.3 billion in U.S. taxpayer funds Washington provides to Israel every year, “is something we deserve to know as citizens of a democracy,” he said. > **[U.S. floods arms into Israel despite mounting alarm over war’s conduct](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/)** > > The U.S. has approved more than 100 weapons sales to Israel since the Gaza War began, underscoring Washington’s extensive involvement in the conflict. It doesn’t matter if they are by far a net arms _exporter_ or not. The US _is_ providing arms and taxpayer funds that it could use as leverage if it wanted too. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3915 "2024-03-10T08:36:14Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The “and then what” comes later. Because if the United States actually did this, and everyone else followed suit, then Israel would run out of bombs to use on Gaza eventually. “Eventually” See - that’s the problem - the people in Gaza are starving _now_, “eventually” might as well be never for a lot of them. What are you going to do in the meanwhile? Complain that airdrops are inefficient/expensive/whatever? It took _years_ to end apartheid in South Africa, Gaza doesn’t have _years_. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > People in America can’t directly protest the Israeli government. Sure they can. Plenty of anti-Israel protests going on in the US all the time right now with people pretty directly saying “stop this war” and “stop this genocide”. Unless you’re using a different meaning of “direct”? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But they can pressure their _own_ government to stop funding this “war.” Sure. And some are, and they absolutely should. A big obstacle, though, is that there are far too many in the US who think Israel is entirely in the right and fully support them, even want to criminalize people speaking out against these atrocities. Just like the anti-Vietnam war movement in the US back in the 1960’s. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=188) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=190)