# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 190
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3916 "2024-03-10T08:54:48Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > “Eventually” > > See - that’s the problem - the people in Gaza are starving _now_, “eventually” might as well be never for a lot of them. > > What are you going to do in the meanwhile? Complain that airdrops are inefficient/expensive/whatever? It took _years_ to end apartheid in South Africa, Gaza doesn’t have _years_. …I don’t even know what you are going on about now. I haven’t said that America should _stop_ the airdrops. I’m saying the airdrops are inconsequential, and they need to be _doing other things as well_. Like putting pressure on Israel to let the trucks through. What am I going to do in the meantime? Apparently repeat everything I’ve said to you already. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Unless you’re using a different meaning of “direct”? Of course. > [@Broomstick](#): > > And some are, and they absolutely should. A big obstacle, though, is that there are far too many in the US who think Israel is entirely in the right and fully support them, even want to criminalize people speaking out against these atrocities. Just like the anti-Vietnam war movement in the US back in the 1960’s. I’m well aware that plenty of Americans support what is happening to the Palestinians in Gaza. Thats kinda why everything is so horrible right now. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3917 "2024-03-10T09:02:24Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m saying the airdrops are inconsequential, and they need to be _doing other things as well_. Like putting pressure on Israel to let the trucks through. And what makes you think other things aren’t being done? Do you read _just_ headlines? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m well aware that plenty of Americans support what is happening to the Palestinians in Gaza. Thats kinda why everything is so horrible right now. No, they’re terrible because the current government of Israel is hell bent on genocide. At least half the problem here is one group of people blaming another group for what a third group is doing. Put the blame where it belongs: on the Netanyahu & Crew engaged on ethnic cleansing and murder. Are other people aiding and abetting? Yes. But it’s Netanyahu’s crowd calling the shots on the ground, they bear the brunt of the responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3918 "2024-03-10T09:28:23Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And what makes you think other things aren’t being done? Do you read _just_ headlines? …have you not read _any_ of my posts in this thread? What on _earth_ gives you the impression that I just read the headlines? > [@Broomstick](#): > > No, they’re terrible because the current government of Israel is hell bent on genocide. And America and much of the rest of the world have given them the green light to go ahead. > [@Broomstick](#): > > At least half the problem here is one group of people blaming another group for what a third group is doing. Put the blame where it belongs: on the Netanyahu & Crew engaged on ethnic cleansing and murder. There is nothing wrong with blaming the Biden administration for its support of the way Israel has conducted this war. There is plenty of blame to go around. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Are other people aiding and abetting? Yes. But it’s Netanyahu’s crowd calling the shots on the ground, they bear the brunt of the responsibility. I really don’t care who bears “the brunt” of the responsibility. That isn’t the point of anything I’ve argued here. I’m sorry, Broomstick: I respect you a lot. But you seem to be arguing with me for the sake of arguing. There isn’t anything constructive that will come out of this conversation, I won’t be engaging you any further on this. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3919 "2024-03-10T12:28:25Z")
The US fully supports the Israeli military incursion into Gaza. The US has provided materiel, UN vetoes and propaganda support from the beginning. It is a US/Israeli operation. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3920 "2024-03-10T13:19:43Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The US fully supports the Israeli military incursion into Gaza. It’s not a military incursion. It’s a war. It was started by Hamas which is nothing short of a terrorist group backed by Iran who is backing Houthi attacks on ships. And yes, the US fully supports Israel’s efforts to defend itself. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3921 "2024-03-10T16:54:17Z")
It’s not a war. It may have _started_ as a war, but now it’s just a genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3922 "2024-03-10T17:43:54Z")
As long as Hamas has the hostages and keeps fighting it’s still a war. It’s no more genocidal than any other war. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3923 "2024-03-10T18:09:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not a military incursion. Actually it is. There is no war. There is no battle line defined by the meeting of opposing forces. Israel is not taking war losses. It’s troop losses due to enemy action are just above accidental auto traffic deaths in Israel proper. There is no taking of territory. The entire area of Gaza was held under siege, by Israel, prior to the incursion. Using snipers to murder civilians is not an act of war, or for that matter an act of national defense. The purpose of the incursion is to create a need for reconstruction. Reconstruction, by Israel, will then serve as a cover for colonization. All under the guise of preparing the area for statehood. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3924 "2024-03-10T19:27:30Z")
All of that is your opinion and does not reflect the hostages and fighting. All you’ve described is war with an enemy using guerilla style tactics. When Hamas is defeated and the hostages returned the war will be over. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3925 "2024-03-10T20:07:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > As long as Hamas has the hostages and keeps fighting it’s still a war. As long as the IOF is deliberately targeting grannies and 5 year olds , it’s not a war. Just sparkling civilian slaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3926 "2024-03-10T21:05:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > As long as the IOF is deliberately targeting grannies and 5 year olds , it’s not a war. Just sparkling civilian slaughter. As long as Hamas is deliberately using civilian infrastructure to operate from grannies and 5 year olds will die. It’s a war. One they started by deliberately targeting civilians. It will end when they are defeated. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2024, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3927 "2024-03-10T22:15:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > As long as Hamas is deliberately using civilian infrastructure to operate from grannies and 5 year olds will die. …can you give me a number, how many Hamas soldiers “deliberately using civilian infrastructure” have been killed so far since October 7th? Israel must have _incredibly_ accurate numbers here. Here is the flash update from a couple of days ago: > [@](#): > > - At about 15:00, seven Palestinians were reportedly killed when a bus in Az Zaitoun neighbourhood in Gaza city was hit. > - At about 15:15, five Palestinians were reportedly killed, and others injured, when a mosque in Jabalya city, North Gaza, was hit. > - At about 20:00, five Palestinians were reportedly killed, and others injured, when a house in western An Nuseirat, Deir al Balah, was hit. > - At about 21:30, at least 12 Palestinians were reportedly killed, and others injured, when a house in southern Deir al Balah was hit. > - The bodies of 29 Palestinians reportedly killed in various areas in Khan Younis, southern Gaza, were recovered. > - At about 9:40, four Palestinians were reportedly killed, and seven others injured, when a group of people on a street in Bani Suheila, in northeastern Khan Younis, was hit. > **[Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #135 - occupied...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-135)** > > Situation Report in English on occupied Palestinian territory and 1 other country about Contributions, Food and Nutrition and more; published on 8 Mar 2024 by OCHA A bus. A Mosque. Houses. In the streets. How many of those that were killed were Hamas soldiers? From today: > [@](#): > > Dear friends: today is a very sad day. My uncle, Nahed Al-Saqqa, was killed by Israeli snipers, alongside neighbours, in front of their homes in the Al-Qarara area of Khan Younis. My uncle + others had gone to help family members after their uilding collapsed under heavy aerial bombardment last night. As he left his home, he + the others were shot by Israeli special forces soldiers who lay waiting. Their bodies lie in the street. My aunt was forced to leave her husband’s body because she was shot at when she made an attempt to retrieve it. No one is permitted to bury them; even the Red Crescent/ambulance service are powerless to help. > Tragically, people thought that the occupation had ended its military operation in that area, and had returned home from Rafah. > Was Uncle Nahed Al-Saqqa Hamas? Video footage from Kahn Younis, which was, until last month, was one of the “safe zones” in Gaza: > Was the entire street Hamas? Again, from today: Warning: graphic footage. (Spoiled) > [@](#): > > Graphic footage: The Israeli army wiped out the family of Ibrahim Ashour last night, as Israeli warplanes bombed their home, killing 10 civilians, including 7 children. No one survived in the targeted house near the university college on Street8 in Tal Al-Hawa, west of Gaza City. [https://twitter.com/RamAbdu/status/1766850467458347462](https://twitter.com/RamAbdu/status/1766850467458347462) Were those seven children Hamas? What was the actual target here? Video footage of the historic Barqouq Castle in Khan Younis. > Dates back to 1387AD. Was the Barqouq Castle in Khan Younis Hamas? Why was it targeted? Also from the Flash Update from a few days ago: > [@](#): > > Between the afternoons of 7 and 8 March, the Israeli military reported of no Israeli soldiers killed in Gaza. So many dead Palestinians. The average, almost consistently over the last couple of months, have been 100 Palestinians a day, Its almost as if they are working to a quota. On the day that the IDF again hit their quota, no IDF soldiers were killed. So we’ve got the numbers. This was Flash Update #135. We have 135 updates you can read through. We have historical, documentary evidence of how many Palestinians are dying, and where they have died. And if you want to dig even deeper, you would even be able to track down the names and the ages of all of those who have died as well. The claim that “Hamas is deliberately using civilian infrastructure to operate from” is a testable one. I think the evidence overwhelming shows that Israel are _not_ targeting Hamas. They are _not_ trying to rescue the hostages. So it’s over to you to back up this claim. How many Hamas soldiers were killed over the last few days? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3928 "2024-03-11T01:47:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > As long as Hamas is deliberately using civilian infrastructure to operate from […] It’s a war. The thing is, given that the entire Gaza Strip is about half the size of Philadelphia, there isn’t really anything there but civilian infrastructure. Of course I’m not in any way defending or excusing Hamas attacks on civilians. But this “it’s a war” rhetoric is another example of the weirdly ambiguous “Schrödinger’s nation” status often assigned to Palestinians by people trying to defend or excuse Israeli actions. To wit, when it’s a question of Israel claiming a right to control Palestinian territory and restrict Palestinian civil rights, then Palestinians are assumed to be not a nation and not entitled to exercise sovereignty over their territory. But when it’s a question of Israel claiming a right to drop bombs on Gazans, then suddenly the adversary is implied to be a full-fledged enemy nation with whom Israel is officially at war. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3929 "2024-03-11T03:30:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …can you give me a number, how many Hamas soldiers “deliberately using civilian infrastructure” have been killed so far since October 7th? Yes, all of them. They have representatives in Qatar who could end this right now and release their hostages. They choose not too. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3930 "2024-03-11T03:39:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > To wit, when it’s a question of Israel claiming a right to control Palestinian territory and restrict Palestinian civil rights, then Palestinians are assumed to be not a nation and not entitled to exercise sovereignty over their territory. There is truth to this but there is a lather-rinse-repeat history of a government intent on destroying Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3931 "2024-03-11T03:51:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, all of them. …this isn’t a number. Is it your claim that every single person killed every week by IDF bombing and snipers are Hamas? If yes: can you provide a cite? If no, can you give me a number? How many in total? And how many last week? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3932 "2024-03-11T04:00:32Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …this isn’t a number. > > Is it your claim that every single person killed every week by IDF bombing and snipers are Hamas? > > If yes: can you provide a cite? > > If no, can you give me a number? How many in total? And how many last week? As long as Hamas has hostaqes and leaders in Qutar speaking on their behalf then my answer stands. Your attempt at some kind of gotcha is bullshit and you know it. Using your logic I’ll just ask you to count up the Palestinians who aren’t Hamas and have you subtract it from the total. When you come up with a number and an address you can forward it to Israel so they can free the hostages and end the war. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3933 "2024-03-11T05:19:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > As long as Hamas is deliberately using civilian infrastructure to operate from grannies and 5 year olds will die. I fail to see a connection between Hamas using civilian infrastructure and the IOF _sniping_ at white-flag protected grannies and five-year-olds. This is not in any way, shape or form the “collateral damage” you’re excusing it as, this is targeted assassination of those specific targets. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3934 "2024-03-11T06:13:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > As long as Hamas has hostaqes and leaders in Qutar speaking on their behalf then my answer stands. …so is your answer everyone that has been killed by IDF snipers or bombing in Gaza is Hamas? > [@Magiver](#): > > Your attempt at some kind of gotcha is bullshit and you know it. Using your logic I’ll just ask you to count up the Palestinians who aren’t Hamas and have you subtract it from the total. It has nothing to do with my logic. It has everything to do with proportionality, what is and isn’t a legitimate target under humanitarian law. If the IDF are targeting Hamas soldiers and Hamas targets then we should be able to verify that. If instead they are indiscriminately bombing apartment complexes and Mosques, sniping civilians just trying to get home, burning down houses, razing fields, using controlled demolitions to blow up universities, using bulldozers to knock over hospitals, then these are all war crimes on an industrial scale. That’s the difference here. Which is it? Do these numbers actually exist? Can we quantify how many civilians have been killed for every Hamas soldier taken out? Because if those numbers don’t exist: if Israel don’t have a clue who they are killing, then you can’t claim “Hamas soldiers deliberately using civilian infrastructure” to explain the scale of death and destruction we have seen. 1 in every 100 children in Gaza have been killed as of the 1st of January. Here are their names along with their ages. > **[Know their names: Palestinian children killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza](https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2024/israel-war-on-gaza-10000-children-killed/)** > > One out of every 100 children in Gaza has been killed by Israeli attacks since October 7. How many of them were Hamas? It really shouldn’t be a difficult question. Either the IDF are targeting Hamas in civilian infrastructure: which means they had actionable intelligence that there were Hamas operatives at the target, and after-action reports that will tell them who they managed to kill…or they don’t. I don’t think they actually have these reports. Because every single time Israeli spokespeople talk about how many Hamas they have killed, they always use a ratio based on the Hamas Ministry of Health numbers. Because they aren’t actually tracking the numbers. Because they don’t care. So let’s start with the children. Do you concede that the children who have been killed by the bombing and by snipers are not Hamas? Because I’m happy to subtract them from the list. Do you accept that so far in this “war”, Israel have killed over 12,000 children? And if not that number, how many do you think that it is, and what is your source? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2024, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3935 "2024-03-11T22:06:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > When Hamas is defeated and the hostages returned the war will be over. > [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, all of them. The logical conclusion of these two answers put together is that the war will only be over when the genocide is complete. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=189) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=191)