# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 192
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3956 "2024-03-27T13:24:54Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …that would be an extraordinary thing to be worried about, considering we’ve had lengthy debate all over the internet about how that phrase means different things to different people. And its not as if we can ask Bayan what she means, because either she is trapped, unable to make contact with the world or _because she is dead_. Yes, I agree completely. My point was just that @Magiver quoted her tag as “Palestinian. Feminist. Journalist. From the river to the sea.” Then @TroutMan pretended to think the objectionable part was “Palestinian” or “feminist” or “journalist,” and you pretended to think the “1 state solution” component was “feminist”. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3957 "2024-03-27T13:41:14Z")
It still doesn’t answer the question. Does Magiver think her signature means we shouldn’t care about her or her brother, or does he think it means she’s lying? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3958 "2024-03-27T21:49:25Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > My point was just that @Magiver quoted her tag as “Palestinian. Feminist. Journalist. From the river to the sea.” Then @TroutMan pretended to think the objectionable part was “Palestinian” or “feminist” or “journalist,” and you pretended to think the “1 state solution” component was “feminist”. …and my point is that I couldn’t think of anything less important than what quote Bayan has on their Twitter account. Because her brother didn’t deserve to get killed over a sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3959 "2024-03-29T02:19:56Z")
[Biden considering funding peacekeeping troops in Gaza.](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/28/dod-in-early-talks-to-fund-a-peacekeeping-force-in-gaza-00149547) What could possibly go wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3960 "2024-03-29T11:38:32Z")
That is a whole lot better than having Israel occupy Gaza. Whenever this is over, someone is going to have to provide security for Gaza. Particularly since there certainly will be some elements of Hamas left on top of all of the chaos in rebuilding an area devastated by war. There is a 0% chance that the IDF could play that role and not have it viewed as occupation by a conquering army, which would lead to armed opposition. An international peacekeeping force at least has the opportunity to actually be peacekeepers. That isn’t to say it will be easy or bloodless, but if Israel wants a solution that does not include the long-term and violent occupation of Gaza, they will need to allow someone else to come in and help Gaza rebuild. And that could include letting an international force respond to any actions by the remnants of Hamas instead of taking matters into their own hands. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3961 "2024-03-29T21:52:22Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > That isn’t to say it will be easy or bloodless, but if Israel wants a solution that does not include the long-term and violent occupation of Gaza, they will need to allow someone else to come in and help Gaza rebuild. I am not convinced that the current government of Israel does NOT want a long-term occupation (violent or not) and I don’t think they want to Gaza rebuilt unless it is owned by Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2024, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3962 "2024-03-29T22:33:41Z")
I concur, which is why a peacekeeping force sounds good to me. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3963 "2024-03-30T01:41:38Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > There is a 0% chance that the IDF could play that role and not have it viewed as occupation by a conquering army, which would lead to armed opposition. Of course it would be viewed as occupation by a conquering army. But that’s exactly what happened to Germany and Japan after WW-II. But the prevailing situation in Gaza is politically stuck on stupid. If that isn’t changed then this is WW-1 all over again. Gaza needs to be self sufficient and prosperous. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3964 "2024-03-30T06:50:19Z")
…there is going to be no “occupation”. Not in the sense anyone is describing here. Any Palestinians still trapped in northern Gaza will either escape, be forced south by IDF forces, or they will die. And eventually, the same thing will happen in central Gaza. Rafah will be what it is now. A concentration camp. Over 1.5 million of 2.2 million people are already there. And they will stay there until the rest of the world comes to terms with the fact that what happened in Gaza (and eventually the West Bank) is ethnic cleansing. At the moment most people are in the phase of denial. There will be no UN Peacekeepers. There will be no two-state solution. Nobody is going to intervene on the Palestinians behalf. This is how it will end. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3965 "2024-03-30T10:32:26Z")
@Banquet_Bear I fear that you are correct. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3966 "2024-03-30T19:21:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And they will stay there until the rest of the world comes to terms with the fact that what happened in Gaza (and eventually the West Bank) is ethnic cleansing. It’s war. Until Hamas is defeated and the hostages returned it remains a war. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3967 "2024-03-30T19:28:43Z")
“It’s a war” and “It’s genocide” are not mutually exclusive. I suspect most of the hostages in Gaza are dead by now. They’re never coming home. Does that mean the war and the killing will never end? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3968 "2024-03-30T19:35:28Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > “It’s a war” and “It’s genocide” are not mutually exclusive. That’s a true of many wars. > [@Broomstick](#): > > I suspect most of the hostages in Gaza are dead by now. They’re never coming home. Does that mean the war and the killing will never end? I don’t think so because it’s the only card Hamas holds in order to draw it out. I still think their goal is to pull Iran and other countries into it to defeat Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3969 "2024-03-30T19:49:21Z")
Based on past history I don’t think anyone in the Middle East gives enough of a damn about the Palestinians to engage in open warfare on their behalf. Not even Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2024, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3970 "2024-03-30T23:23:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s war. …from today’s flash update: > [@](#): > > - Incidents resulting in the killing of journalists and media workers in Gaza continue to be reported. On 26 March, at about 22:30, a **Palestinian journalist was reportedly killed** along with **her husband and children** when a house in Rafah was hit. On 28 March, at about 4:55, **a Palestinian journalist was allegedly shot and killed** in Al Shifa Hospital in Gaza city. > > … > > - On 26 March, at about 11:30, 12 Palestinians, including **four children and four women,** were reportedly killed and others injured when tents for internally displaced persons (IDPs) in Al Mawasi area, in western Khan Younis, were hit. > > … > > - On 27 March, at about 3:15, nine Palestinians, including **three children and three women** , were reportedly killed when a house in Khirbet Al Adass area in northern Rafah was hit. > > - On 27 March, at about 17:50, four Palestinians, including **two girls and one woman,** were reportedly killed, and over 10 others injured, when an **agricultural greenhouse** in northern Rafah was hit. > > - On 27 March, the bodies of 15 Palestinians **including six children** were reportedly recovered from various areas in Rafah. The circumstances and exact locations of their killing were not reported. > > - On 27 March, at about 21:15, four Palestinians, who are reportedly members of the **popular committee tasked with securing the delivery of humanitarian aid, were reportedly hit and killed** on Salah Ad Deen Street in Az Zaytoun area, in Gaza city. > > - Between 27 and 28 March, at least **15 Palestinians were reportedly killed, including women and children** , and others injured, when residential buildings near Al Shifa Hospital were hit. > **[Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #148 - occupied...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-148)** > > Situation Report in English on occupied Palestinian territory and 1 other country about Contributions, Education and more; published on 29 Mar 2024 by OCHA From the previous flash update: > [@](#): > > - On 24 March, at about 21:10, 22 Palestinians, including at least s **ix children and eight women,** were reportedly killed when a house in Deir al Balah was hit. > > - On 24 March, at about 18:40, seven Palestinians, including **four women and a boy,** were reportedly killed and others injured when a house in Al Junainah neighbourhood, in eastern Rafah, was hit. > > - On 25 March, at about 21:20, two Palestinians were reportedly killed when **a group of people waiting for humanitarian aid** near Al Kuwaiti Roundabout in Gaza city was hit. > > - On 25 March, at about 12:25, an unconfirmed number of casualties was reported when **Palestinians gathered to collect airdropped humanitarian aid** were hit near Karni Crossing area, in eastern Ash Shuja’iyah in Gaza city. > > - On 25 March, according to the Government Media Office (GMO) in Gaza, **12 Palestinians drowned while trying to reach airdropped aid** that fell into the sea off the shore of Beit Lahiya on 25 March. > > - On 26 March, at about 0:40, 18 Palestinians, including at least **nine children and five women,** were reportedly killed and tens of others were injured when a house sheltering IDPs in Musabeh area, in northern Rafah, was hit. > **[Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #147 \[EN/AR/HE\] -...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-147-enarhe)** > > Situation Report in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory and 1 other country about Contributions, Food and Nutrition and more; published on 27 Mar 2024 by OCHA From flash update #146 > [@](#): > > - On 23 March, at about 2:30, five Palestinians, including **four children and a woman,** were reportedly killed when a house in Mirage area, in northern Rafah, was hit. > > - On 23 March, at about 12:00, at least **19 Palestinians were reportedly killed, and others injured, when a group of people waiting for humanitarian aid** were shot at in the vicinity of Al Kuwaiti roundabout in Gaza city. > > - On 23 March, at about 22:00, **eight Palestinians, most of them children, were reportedly killed** , and others injured when a house sheltering internally displaced persons (IDPs) was hit in Deir al Balah. > > - On 24 March, at about 2:00, eight Palestinians, **including two children and a woman** , were reportedly killed and others injured when a house on Al Fallouja Street in Al Junainah neighbourhood, in eastern Rafah, was hit. > **[Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #146 \[EN/AR/HE\] -...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-146-enarhe)** > > Situation Report in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory and 1 other country about Contributions, Food and Nutrition and more; published on 25 Mar 2024 by OCHA Women. Children. Journalists. Three _separate_ attacks on people waiting for relief supplies. Between the same time period of these three flash reports, between the 21st and the 29th of March, reportedly _only 2_ IDF soldiers were killed. You cannot characterize what is happening in Gaza as a “war.” This is indiscriminate slaughter. > [@Magiver](#): > > Until Hamas is defeated and the hostages returned it remains a war. 1. You are describing a war crime. Collective punishment of a civilian population, including using starvation as a weapon, indiscriminate bombing campaigns, shooting people holding white flags, destruction of the healthcare system, targeting journalists, academics, police, the United Nations, aid convoys, these are all against the Geneva Conventions and the laws of humanitarian law. You aren’t allowed to do that. Even to get hostages back. 2. Netanyahu’s administration don’t give a FUCK about the hostages. They don’t care. They aren’t seriously trying to get them back Israel have _killed_ more hostages than they’ve rescued. And while I’m here, an update on Bayan. She’s alive. She posted a short video that shows what the area surrounding Al Shifa looks like now. Its just rubble. Spoiled, as she shows the aftermath of the killing of her brother. [https://twitter.com/NourNaim88/status/1774092320398278896](https://twitter.com/NourNaim88/status/1774092320398278896) Some before and afters: this is what al-Rashid street looked like in 2018. > **[Al-Rasheed Street on the Gaza beach shows the Corniche area on...](https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/video/al-rasheed-street-on-the-gaza-beach-shows-the-corniche-news-footage/1402867676)** > > Al-Rasheed Street on the Gaza beach shows the Corniche area on October 26, 2018 in Gaza, Palestine. The Gaza Sea is the only recreational place for the citizens of the Gaza Strip. This is what it looks like now. > Israel will never allow Palestinians back here to rebuild. This isn’t about the hostages. This is an annexation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3971 "2024-03-31T00:31:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > these are all against the Geneva Conventions and the laws of humanitarian law. You aren’t allowed to do that. …aren’t allowed _by whom?_ If you say that what they’re doing isn’t allowed, and they keep acting as if it _is,_ and you keep saying, _no, it isn’t,_ and so on, and so on — well, look, I know what could eventually and dramatically occur to show that you’re correct about that not being allowed; but, hypothetically: is there some level, _any_ level, of standing back and letting it happen where you’d say, _huh, I guess that it IS being allowed; who knew?_ ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3972 "2024-03-31T00:47:37Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > …aren’t allowed _by whom?_ …by right thinking, moral people. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > If you say that what they’re doing isn’t allowed, and they keep acting as if it _is,_ and you keep saying, _no, it isn’t,_ and so on, and so on — well, look, I know what could eventually and dramatically happen to show that you’re correct about that not being allowed; but, hypothetically: is there some level, _any_ level, of standing back and letting it happen where you’d say, _huh, I guess that it IS being allowed; who knew?_ Israel and the United States have declared that the era of international humanitarian law is over. We now no longer have to give a fuck about what either of the two have to say any more. What this signals is the decline of America as the last remaining “superpower” as much of the world starts looking to the global south for leadership. That’s why this matters. It’s the start of a major shift in the global world order. The hypocrisy of America and its allies have been laid open. They will happily support and fund a genocide. Palestinian lives are treated as not that important. It doesn’t matter if hundreds of thousands of them die. We can see them. We can see the hundreds of thousands of people that have cheered on this war. That don’t care that brown people are dying. And we know they will be coming for us next. This doesn’t stop with the Palestinians. Its why we are seeing an increase in the police state. Surveillance. Cop Cities. The consequences for treating the Geneva Conventions and international law as a joke aren’t going to happen overnight. But they will happen. It will start with the likelihood that Biden will lose the next election. Then everything gets worse: firstly for the Palestinians, then for marginalized folks around the world. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3973 "2024-03-31T00:48:24Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Israel will never allow Palestinians back here to rebuild. This isn’t about the hostages. This is an annexation. You should let Hamas know that because the Israelis would like their hostages back. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3974 "2024-03-31T00:51:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You should let Hamas know that because the Israelis would like their hostages back. …give me the direct dial, and I’ll call them straight away. That doesn’t change the fact that Netanyahu’s administration don’t give a FUCK about the hostages and have killed more hostages than they’ve rescued. And that this isn’t a war but a genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/3975 "2024-03-31T00:54:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And that this isn’t a war but a genocide. In your opinion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=191) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=193)