# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 195
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4016 "2024-04-04T13:02:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not when genocide _is_ the military goal. Good thing it isn’t then ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4017 "2024-04-04T13:02:18Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > 40% of Japan’s urban areas was bombed into oblivion anyway, so that’s a genocide? You answer my straightforward yes/no question first. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4018 "2024-04-04T13:04:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Genocide is ineffective militarily. Worked for the USA against the Native Americans… > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We can see that in history - the Nazis diverted resources to genocide that could have helped the front lines. Thanks to the USA’s funding, Israel doesn’t really have that problem, now does it? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Good thing it isn’t then It’s the goal Israeli leadership has actually said out loud (as cited in the ICJ case), so yes, it is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4019 "2024-04-04T13:06:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Worked for the USA against the Native Americans… I suspect we’d be wealthier and better off today as a country if we’d developed collaborative relationships with Native Americans. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Thanks to the USA’s funding, Israel doesn’t really have that problem, now does it? These actions greatly increase the chances of less US support and aid. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4020 "2024-04-04T13:08:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I suspect we’d be wealthier and better off today as a country if we’d developed collaborative relationships with Native Americans. Sure. Doesn’t mean it was _ineffective_, though. Genocide works really well if you get to keep all the dead’s stuff. And aren’t facing a larger enemy at the same time. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > These actions greatly increase the chances of less US support and aid. I’ll believe it when I see it. Congress certainly isn’t stopping funding yet. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4021 "2024-04-04T13:14:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ll believe it when I see it. Congress certainly isn’t stopping funding yet. In the short term, I agree with you. In the long term, Israel’s leadership is doing serious and maybe irreparable harm to their relationship with the US. It used to be that both parties were rock solid in support of Israel’s government. Now they’ve lost about half of one party, and it’s getting worse and worse for them. Effective and capable militaries aren’t this short sighted. And if incompetence was involved (as I suspect, at least partially, that it was), then that’s an even clearer sign. Also, generally speaking, a highly effective military should have been capable of essentially defeating Hamas’s military capability by now. It’s clear they have not. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4022 "2024-04-04T13:17:22Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Not use the term when it’s not a genocide? …the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that it is. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > That’s their claim, it isn’t actual evidence which has been proven in a court of actual intent to genocide. It is actual evidence actually. It doesn’t have to be “proven in a court” of actual intent to genocide. We can read the words that they said. We can determine intent for ourselves. It’s not as if Israel are going to listen to the International Court of Justice anyway. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Doesn’t mean that just because I dismiss your claims that Israel is doing genocide that its absolved of all warcrimes. So you concede that Israel has committed multiple warcrimes? Which ones in particular? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Tokyo was firebombed, wasn’t a genocide, neither is this. The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide was signed in 1948 and became effective from 1951. And the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian Law came about in part because of things that happened in World War Two. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > ALL of which I’m sure is bad but still doesn’t constitute genocide. They have literally forced the entire population into a single, concentrated area, destroyed the healthcare system and are starving them to death. They have systematically targeted the academic class. 94 university professors killed. Hundreds of teachers. Thousands of students. All of the universities. Most of the schools. You realize that targeting academics and targeting journalists and targeting the police and targeting aid workers and targeting healthcare workers are all genocidal actions? Because it was supposed to be a war on Hamas. But by targeting these people in particular means you are breaking down the fabric of society. The goal here is to make “getting back to normal” impossible. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > All of it? It can be bad and not genocide? You ever thought about that? Of course I’ve thought about that. As I’ve already told you, I didn’t use the word genocide. Its a loaded word. But is this really the best you can do? “Its bad.” Is that the sum total of your argument? Is that it? Just today, I’ve posted multiple cites outlining clear and obvious warcrimes. All of them different warcrimes. From AI targeting to the destruction of a hospital to the destruction of an apartment block to deliberate starvation in the north to torture and abuse of Palestinian prisoners. And I’ve posted multiple cites, at least every week here, documenting what I consider clear evidence of an ongoing genocide. And your total rebuttal here is “its bad, but not _that_ bad?” > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But the evidence isn’t overwhelming, Yeah, it is. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > so it looks like you allowed emotion to override the fact however awful it is and how bad Israels actions are, it doesn’t constitute a genocide. I think we are _allowed_ to be emotional about the ongoing slaughter of the Palestinian people. But that isn’t an argument against the evidence I’ve posted here. Feel free to address that evidence. But this isn’t the appropriate place to be debating my “emotions.” ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4023 "2024-04-04T13:17:56Z")
Imagine if this were a real war and Hamas had an air force with Alkhazami software targeting IDF reservist homes. IDF propaganda would cast those as genocidal atrocities while Hamas would claim the IDF was using civilians as shields. Since there is no way to assess the efficiency of Lavender target selection, the system is running open ended without quality control. A science fiction nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4024 "2024-04-04T13:18:19Z")
No it wouldn’t be genocide if they firebombed most of Japan, because the US didn’t go out to exterminate every last Japanese person ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4025 "2024-04-04T13:19:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s the goal Israeli leadership has actually said out loud (as cited in the ICJ case), so yes, it is. Who’s said it? Citing the ICJ case means nothing without them making a judgement againstIsrael on the case brought forward by SA. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4026 "2024-04-04T13:20:48Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > because the US didn’t go out to exterminate every last Japanese person …this might be what is causing your confusion. Because this _isn’t_ how genocide is defined. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4027 "2024-04-04T13:21:33Z")
Genocide doesn’t require everyone involved to have a positive goal of extermination. If a large enough portion of them do, and most of the rest are indifferent, then that can be enough for extermination, or local ethnic cleansing, to occur. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4028 "2024-04-04T13:22:36Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Imagine if this were a real war and Hamas had an air force with Alkhazami software targeting IDF reservist homes. IDF propaganda would cast those as genocidal atrocities while Hamas would claim the IDF was using civilians as shields. They didn’t need an Airforce to do similar actions on October 7th. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4029 "2024-04-04T13:25:51Z")
> For an act to be classified as genocide, it is essential to demonstrate that the perpetrators had a deliberate and specific aim (dolus specialis) to physically destroy the group based on its real or perceived nationality, ethnicity, race, or religion. I know how it’s defined thanks ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4030 "2024-04-04T13:27:15Z")
Seems clear and self evident that some portion of Israeli leadership and the IDF is either in favor of extermination or cleansing of Gaza. Some other portion is indifferent to extermination/cleansing. Presumably another portion is opposed to it - but are they being effective in opposing it? Only, ISTM, to the extent that the IDF isn’t nuking Gaza or systematically rounding them up in death camps. Otherwise the IDF seems to be, at best, mostly indifferent to civilian death and suffering. Allowing a million people to risk starving, which does seem like it may be coming, is close enough to genocide IMO to reasonably warrant the term being used. Even if it’s somewhat hyperbolic - some level of hyperbole may be useful here to shift events on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4031 "2024-04-04T13:33:04Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I know how it’s defined thanks …do you know that “destroy” is not the same as “kill?” For example, the genocide of Uyghurs in China. The intent wasn’t to “kill all Uyghurs.” It was to suppress them, indoctrinate them, intern them, sometimes sterilize them. But not _kill_ them all. Likewise, the Bosnian genocide. Less people were killed in Bosnia than in the current conflict in Gaza. But its still called the Bosnian Genocide. The elements of genocide are all presented in the South African case presented to the International Court of Justice. Each element is addressed. It’s all right there. Have you read it? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4032 "2024-04-04T13:40:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide was signed in 1948 and became effective from 1951. And the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian Law came about in part because of things that happened in World War Two. Ok, and? Still wasn’t a genocide > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So you concede that Israel has committed multiple warcrimes? Which ones in particular? The recent bombing of the world food kitchen staff? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It is actual evidence actually. It doesn’t have to be “proven in a court” of actual intent to genocide. We can read the words that they said. We can determine intent for ourselves. It’s not as if Israel are going to listen to the International Court of Justice anyway. Well for those who would like the rule of law and not rule of the mob, it being proven in an impartial court of law is important for its validity. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They have literally forced the entire population into a single, concentrated area, destroyed the healthcare system and are starving them to death. Same thing happened in Japan, blockaded, bombed to oblivion to force a surrender, terrible, but still not a genocide. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Just today, I’ve posted multiple cites outlining clear and obvious warcrimes. All of them different warcrimes. From AI targeting to the destruction of a hospital to the destruction of an apartment block to deliberate starvation in the north to torture and abuse of Palestinian prisoners. Warcrimes, again, doesn’t mean it’s genocide > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And your total rebuttal here is “its bad, but not _that_ bad?” No, my rebuttal is that it’s bad, but not a genocide and that Hamas didn’t need to mindlessly butcher 1500 people for no apparent gain whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4033 "2024-04-04T13:43:20Z")
All of which had documented evidence of the respective governments to commit genocide, re-education camps for the Uyghurs and the genocide in Sbrenica, Where’s the equivalent in the Gaza Strip? > The elements of genocide are all presented in the South African case presented to the International Court of Justice. Each element is addressed. It’s all right there. Have you read it? Hasn’t been judged to be a genocide though, only a case brought to trial ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4034 "2024-04-04T13:59:24Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Ok, and? Still wasn’t a genocide …you are citing an event that happened before the genocide convention was ratified. It isn’t considered a genocide because it was never put to the test. But feel free, if you want, to put it to the test now. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The recent bombing of the world food kitchen staff? That’s one. Any more? Of course, over 200 aid workers have been killed by the IDF since the start of the conflict. Do they count as well? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Well for those who would like the rule of law and not rule of the mob, it being proven in an impartial court of law is important for its validity. Well, no, thats not how it works. The intent of the South African case at the court is to _prevent_ hundreds of thousands of deaths. Cases take _years_ to get through the ICJ. By the time the court makes it ruling the genocide will be all over and done with. What matters here is the interim judgement, which ruled that it was _plausible_ that Israel were committing a genocide. And Israel were ordered to: > [@](#): > > - Israel must take all possible measures to prevent acts as outlined in Article 2 of the 1948 Genocide Convention. This entails not killing members of a particular group (in this case, Palestinians), not causing physical or psychological harm to members of that group, not inflicting living conditions which are calculated to bring about the end of the existence of a people, and not carrying out actions designed to prevent births within that group of people. > **[What has the ICJ ordered Israel to do on Gaza war, and what’s next?](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/26/what-has-the-icj-ordered-israel-to-do-on-gaza-war-and-whats-next)** > > The court did not order a ceasefire, but effectively put Israel on notice over the war. That’s a far cry from “rule of mob.” This impartial court ruled overwhelmingly that Israel had to _stop the killing_. The “mob rule” here isn’t people like me who happen to use a word starting with g. Its the state actor which upon hearing the ruling of the court decided to act even worse. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Same thing happened in Japan, blockaded, bombed to oblivion to force a surrender, terrible, but still not a genocide. And since then we’ve had the Geneva Conventions, Humanitarian International Law, the Genocide Convention. These are all relevant now. Things that happened before they were ratified? Not so much. Because again, the reason we have these things now is because of what happened during WW2. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Warcrimes, again, doesn’t mean it’s genocide Its just the genociding that makes it a genocide. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No, my rebuttal is that it’s bad, but not a genocide This isn’t a rebuttal. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > All of which had documented evidence of the respective governments to commit genocide, re-education camps for the Uyghurs and the genocide in Sbrenica, Where’s the equivalent in the Gaza Strip? Here. > **[South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf](https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf)** > > 1521.44 KB It’s literally all there. Legal arguments presented by a legal team that addresses every single element of the genocide convention. Have you read it? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Hasn’t been judged to be a genocide though, only a case brought to trial I’ve outlined what the court has _actually_ ruled. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4035 "2024-04-04T14:43:31Z")
> you are citing an event that happened before the genocide convention was ratified. It isn’t considered a genocide because it was never put to the test. But feel free, if you want, to put it to the test now. The Armenian genocide and Holocaust happened before the convention was ratified, your point? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That’s one. Any more? > > Of course, over 200 aid workers have been killed by the IDF since the start of the conflict. Do they count as well? If I take what you say at face value, yes? Does it constitute genocide? No > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The intent of the South African case at the court is to _prevent_ hundreds of thousands of deaths. Cases take _years_ to get through the ICJ. By the time the court makes it ruling the genocide will be all over and done with. But it’s not a genocide, and their legal ruling would lend credence to the accusation if it turns out to be valid. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Israel must take all possible measures to prevent acts as outlined in Article 2 of the 1948 Genocide Convention. Prevention doesn’t mean it’s doing one > And since then we’ve had the Geneva Conventions, Humanitarian International Law, the Genocide Convention. These are all relevant now. Things that happened before they were ratified? Not so much. What? The Armenian genocide was well documented and known throughout the world because it was beyond reasonable doubt, you don’t need Conventions after the fact to point that out, only to provide legal definition to the crimes committed. > Because again, the reason we have these things now is because of what happened during WW2. And WWI > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This isn’t a rebuttal. No it’s a rebuttal, even if you don’t like it > It’s literally all there. Legal arguments presented by a legal team that addresses every single element of the genocide convention. Great, now where’s the evidence of dolus specialis? > Ive outlined what the court has actually ruled. To prevent genocide as opposed to committing it [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=194) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=196)