# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 196
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4036 "2024-04-04T15:08:33Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The Armenian genocide and Holocaust happened before the convention was ratified, your point? …its less about my point and more about _your_ point. And you don’t appear to have a point here. If you want to argue the fire-bombing was a genocide? Sure. Want to argue that it wasn’t? Fine with me. But it isn’t relevant to the discussion either way. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > If I take what you say at face value, yes? I’ve cited the figure in this thread, and it isn’t hard to look it up. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Does it constitute genocide? No Strawman. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But it’s not a genocide, You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. My opinion is backed up by substantial evidence that you haven’t even attempted to rebut. And your opinion is backed up with nothing at all. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > and their legal ruling would lend credence to the accusation if it turns out to be valid. The interim ruling counts. The interim ruling _matters_. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Prevention doesn’t mean it’s doing one LOL. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > What? The Armenian genocide was well documented and known throughout the world because it was beyond reasonable doubt, you don’t need Conventions after the fact to point that out, only to provide legal definition to the crimes committed. Sure. So make your case here. Was the Tokyo fire-bombing a genocide or not? Present your arguments. On second thought, this really isn’t on topic. I’ll no longer engage you on this here. Feel free to start this in another thread, and I’ll consider debating it there. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > And WWI And other wars! > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No it’s a rebuttal, even if you don’t like it No, simply saying “it isn’t” isn’t a rebuttal. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Great, now where’s the evidence of dolus specialis? As I’ve already said, Page 59, Section D, titled “. Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials and Others.” Its normally the hardest element to prove in a genocide. But they literally just Tweeted it out. And they _continue_ to Tweet it out. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > To prevent genocide as opposed to committing it They ruled that it’s _plausible_ Israel is committing a genocide and have _ordered them to stop._ ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4037 "2024-04-04T16:47:00Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > its less about my point and more about _your_ point. And you don’t appear to have a point here. If you want to argue the fire-bombing was a genocide? Sure. Want to argue that it wasn’t? Fine with me. But it isn’t relevant to the discussion either way. I do have a point, you’re just not listening, mass destruction doesn’t equate to genocide no matter how much you think it is the same thing, the Israelis and US governments never had/have a plan to commit mass genocide against the Palestinians/Japanese. You seem to be of the opinion that if I refute the genocide claim, that I refute the suffering of the population of Gaza in its entirety, I don’t. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Strawman So you are in agreement its not a genocide? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. My opinion is backed up by substantial evidence that you haven’t even attempted to rebut. And your opinion is backed up with nothing at all. It’s not an opinion, it’s fact, at present, there is jo evidence of Israels government wanting to commit genocide against the Palestinian people, evidence of which is demonstrated by the consistent rise in the Palestinians population since 1948. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The interim ruling counts. The interim ruling _matters_. If it counts then they’ve not said Israel committed Genocide like you’re implying, only advising Israel to avoid doing it. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > LOL Burden of proof is on your side to make the case, so far the ICJ hasn’t stated they did. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Sure. > > So make your case here. Was the Tokyo fire-bombing a genocide or not? Present your arguments. > > On second thought, this really isn’t on topic. I’ll no longer engage you on this here. Feel free to start this in another thread, and I’ll consider debating it there. I already stated the Tokyo bombing wasn’t genocide by using it as a counter to your claim Israel was committing genocide. You’re not going to engage because it takes five minutes to poke holes in your Israel is committing Genocide hysteria, by contrasting it with an _actual_ Genocide which took place in the Middle East against Armenians and which was well documented with intent in line with Dolus Specialis. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And other wars! See above > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > No, simply saying “it isn’t” isn’t a rebuttal. Everything else I’ve said about your genocide claims is a rebuttal > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > As I’ve already said, Page 59, Section D, titled “. Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials and Others.” > > Its normally the hardest element to prove in a genocide. But they literally just Tweeted it out. And they _continue_ to Tweet it out. Where is the expression of intent linked to government employees carrying out the orders to perpetrate this genocide? Or is it just some random people in the Israeli government who have no power to carry anything they say out? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They ruled that it’s _plausible_ Israel is committing a genocide and have _ordered them to stop._ Where do they say that particular sentence? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4038 "2024-04-04T17:01:05Z")
So we all agree that Israel is engaging in the mass slaughter of innocent civilians, destroying essential infrastructure, allowing famine and disease to spread as methods of collective punishment, and actively killing people who are attempting to provide food or medical care to their victims, many of them are children. But apparently the crucially important thing we need to be arguing about here is…is it Genocide™? (Personally, my current position is not to use that word, but also not to derail conversations by objecting when others choose to use it) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4039 "2024-04-04T17:33:52Z")
My position too. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4040 "2024-04-04T17:53:14Z")
Great tweet on what Israel should have done after Oct 7th: > "So what other options did Israel have after October 7th? There are many possible answers, which were clear from the beginning. You may disagree with some or all of this, but six months later, and after all of the most recent disasters, I believe even more strongly that this was the way to go: 1. First, stop and think. Even for just a few days. Don’t react _exactly_ as always, and exactly as Hamas expected and wanted. Don’t give them what they want. It’s Gaza. Hamas is not leaving. A response can wait a few days. 2. Take a moment to mourn, grieve, sit shiva together (after securing the border, of course). 3. Make the hostages the #1 priority and get them back _whatever_ it takes. A victory for Hamas? Of course. But life is more important. 4. Use that pause to focus the world’s attention—for more than one day—on what Hamas did. Shame and isolate them the way ISIS was shamed and isolated. 5. Make it clear that in whatever war or campaign comes next, protecting civilians will be a priority, and _act_ that way. (Don’t block all aid, use only precision weapons, don’t bomb civilian infrastructure, warn the soldiers that any shenanigans will be punished, etc.) 6. Separate the Palestinian people from Hamas’s leadership by reiterating a commitment to a real two-state solution (yes, I know (!) that Netanyahu and this government would never do that. I am simply stating what would have been the right thing to do). 7. Go after Hamas methodically, surgically, financially, with much of the world behind us. (For example, using drones and helicopters, no armed man walks the streets of Gaza again until all hostages are released.) 8. Clamp down on the Jewish extremists in the West Bank. Make it clear that you will not allow them to open another front. Arrest as many as necessary. 9. Explain to the Israeli public, again and again, exactly why you are doing all this. Why there is great strength in restraint. That the goal is to prevent this from ever happening again. But that this will take heart and brains, and not just muscle. 10. Speak softly. No need to make big empty threats when you have so much power. This would have been a start. One can wish. And to all those, especially non-Israelis, who will call me “naive,” are you happy so far with the results of your “only way?” Come on." ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4041 "2024-04-04T19:10:07Z")
Moderating: > [@MrDibble](#): > > Oh, this isn’t disingenuous _at all_ I realize this is a difficult subject, but please try to avoid attacking other posters. And: > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > So we all agree that Israel is engaging in the mass slaughter of innocent civilians, destroying essential infrastructure, allowing famine and disease to spread as methods of collective punishment, and actively killing people who are attempting to provide food or medical care to their victims, many of them are children. > > But apparently the crucially important thing we need to be arguing about here is…is it Genocide™? Makes an excellent point. I’m calling for 24 hour ban on using the word “genocide” in this thread, including arguing is or isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4042 "2024-04-04T19:46:42Z")
Thanks, good points. I’ve gone from supporting Israel after October 7th, to figuring that civilian caualties were inevitable, but after seeing the apparently deliberate targeting of hospitals and relief workers I can’t back them any more. They need to get food and medicine to the Gazans, or at least get out of the way of people who do. I also am not interested in the appropriate legal term for the crap they are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4043 "2024-04-04T23:30:40Z")
> **[Joe Biden calls for ‘immediate ceasefire’ in Gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/04/israel-us-gaza-joe-biden-benjamin-netanyahu-phone-call)** > > US president also warns Netanyahu that Israel must protect civilians and aid workers or risk losing US support Hallelujah. About fucking time. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2024, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4044 "2024-04-04T23:44:31Z")
What’s the deal with this “Samson Option”? Is it ever brought up? Conspiracy? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4045 "2024-04-05T00:22:37Z")
I don’t know how much is documented, but that is something that allegedly came up in 1973, and both Moscow and Washington made it very crystal clear it was not a “real” option (nuclear weapons never are), however the idea was that such talk would impress upon the international community the urgency of brokering a ceasefire. ETA this is the “Samson Option” book: > **[The Samson Option: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Samson_Option:_Israel%27s_Nuclear_Arsenal_and_American_Foreign_Policy)** > > The Samson Option: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy is a 1991 book by Seymour Hersh. It details the history of Israel's nuclear weapons program and its effects on Israel-American relations. The "Samson Option" of the book's title refers to the nuclear strategy whereby Israel would launch a massive nuclear retaliatory strike if the state itself was being overrun, just as the Biblical figure Samson is said to have pushed apart the pillars of a Philistine temple, bringing down ... ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4046 "2024-04-05T00:25:07Z")
Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4047 "2024-04-13T04:34:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It’s become clear to me that anyone in Gaza is considered to either be Hamas or working with Hamas and thus an enemy to be killed by the IDF. If that were the case they would all be dead which is clearly not the case. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Truly appalling. War always is. The question that never seems to be asked is where is Hamas in all this? Are they actively fighting against the IDF? Where is their base of operation? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4048 "2024-04-13T11:20:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The question that never seems to be asked is where is Hamas in all this? Are they actively fighting against the IDF? “all this” is not a war. “all this” is a well planned act of imperialism by Israel. Hamas is at best a local resistance. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4049 "2024-04-13T11:39:12Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > “all this” is a well planned act of imperialism by Israel. “well planned”… what a joke! The Israeli government and IDF have shown incredible incompetence since Oct 7th. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4050 "2024-04-13T11:42:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The Israeli government and IDF have shown incredible incompetence since Oct 7th. Agreed. A failed plan is still a plan. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4051 "2024-04-13T11:53:53Z")
What plan? The IDF failed to protect Israel on Oct 7th, and is utterly failing in their stated military goals (destroy Hamas and get the hostages back). I’m sure parts of the government and IDF saw this as a chance to take over Gaza/kill Gazans, but that’s not a plan. You don’t need a plan to kill a bunch of civilians and cause chaos. What we’re seeing is incompetent flailing from malevolent and incompetent actors. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4052 "2024-04-13T12:06:16Z")
Don’t worry too much about Hamas; they are basically fine: > **[Six months on, how close is Israel to eliminating Hamas?](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68745681)** > > BBC Verify assesses the evidence behind Israel's key war aim of destroying Hamas during its military operation in the Gaza Strip. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4053 "2024-04-13T15:04:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > It’s become clear to me that anyone in Gaza is considered to either be Hamas or working with Hamas and thus an enemy to be killed by the IDF. > > If that were the case they would all be dead which is clearly not the case. Another month or two of blocking food and water from Gaza and “they’re all dead” might be much closer to the truth than at present. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4054 "2024-04-13T15:29:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The Israeli government and IDF have shown incredible incompetence since Oct 7th. Don’t forget all the incompetence that preceded October 7th and allowed Hamas to achieve surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4055 "2024-04-13T17:13:13Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > “all this” is not a war. “all this” is a well planned act of imperialism by Israel. Hamas is at best a local resistance. Israel did not plan the Hamas attack. That’s an act of war on the part of Hamas just as the hostage taking is. Long before this they created a tunnel system in which to wage war and use civilian infrastructure as a field of battle. This war was fronted by Iran who previously used children as mine sweepers with the promise of martyrdom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=195) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=197)