# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/21 "2023-10-10T01:16:16Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Although Israeli intelligence should have figured this out weeks ago. They should have informants in the West Bank and Gaza. > [@aceplace57](#): > > It only required one thoughtful Palestinian Maybe there’s a serious lack of Hamas opponents in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/22 "2023-10-10T01:23:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Maybe there’s a serious lack of Hamas opponents in Gaza. There’s a huge excluded middle there. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/23 "2023-10-10T01:24:17Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > It only required one thoughtful Palestinian to realize Hamas was going to bring a crap load of misery to Gaza. Make a phone call to authorities and prevent the attack. Right, because Israel would certainly have rushed troops to the border based on a phone call from some random guy. More seriously, Egypt is claiming they tried to warn Israel and were blown off. Israel denies it. But no matter how you slice it, it’s a catastrophic intelligence failure. This wasn’t like 9/11, which involved a small group of trained fanatics. _Thousands_ of people must have known about this at least a few days in advance. It’s unbelievable that not one of those people was on the Mossad payroll. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/24 "2023-10-10T01:37:31Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > This wasn’t like 9/11 Indeed. About 3000 Americans were murdered on 9/11. Given the relative sizes of the US’s and Israel’s populations, the killing of 1000 or so Israelis is like the US losing over 30,000 to a terrorist attack. ETA: And it’s not over yet. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/25 "2023-10-10T01:38:56Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > There’s a huge excluded middle there. There usually is. [CooPWB October 9, 2023](https://coopwb.in/info/how-many-palestinians-support-hamas/) **How Many Palestinians Currently Support Hamas? Delving into the Latest Dynamics** - The escalating tensions between Israel and Hamas have yet again underscored the significance of grasping the extent of Palestinian backing for Hamas. As of now, a recent survey indicates that 58% of the population in the Gaza Strip stands with Hamas. Simultaneously, there’s a notable percentage of Palestinians who don’t. The support fluctuates based on various factors. - Hamas has had control over the Gaza Strip since 2007. While it continues to be a potent entity for numerous Palestinians, there is a contrasting sentiment against it, which cannot be ignored. The current scenario pivots on understanding these intricacies. Regardless of the percentage of Palestinian support it’s going to be difficult to separate Hamas from Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/26 "2023-10-10T01:50:52Z")
I wouldn’t put a whole lot of stock in a single poll, especially with no information given about methodology, sample size, etc. I think the most we can reasonably say is that support for Hamas is widespread but not unanimous. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/27 "2023-10-10T02:14:11Z")
I know very little of political things. Less of geo-political things. The Palestinian people are a poor, disillusioned group. Starving and without resources. Starving uneducated children. With no hope of ever improving their lot. Unless they can get out. I think that’s probably not easy. No one wants them. England, France and the US have huge problems with racism about it. They’ve been sold a bill of goods by Hamas. If they believe they become radicalized. If they don’t believe they stay quiet to stay alive. I, for one can have some sympathy for their plight. What happened to Israel is wrong and horrific. I have lots of sympathy for them. Why did this happen? A piece of land? Just to say I’m badder than you? For goods and services? What do they really want. I understand religion plays a big part in it. Why? And, if we know where the Hamas leaders are, in some cushy place with amenities, why doesn’t someone go arrest them and drag them back to face the consequences? Iran will have to be dealt with before it’s over. It makes me sick. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/28 "2023-10-10T02:21:54Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > And, if we know where the Hamas leaders are, in some cushy place with amenities, why doesn’t someone go arrest them and drag them back to face the consequences? I don’t think Qatar has an extradition treaty with Israel, and sending the Israeli army in after him just opens the door to a wider conflict. (The rumor is that the Hamas leaders are staying in a hotel in Qatar. i do not personally know if that is true.) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/29 "2023-10-10T02:24:00Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I wouldn’t put a whole lot of stock in a single poll, especially with no information given about methodology, sample size, etc. I think the most we can reasonably say is that support for Hamas is widespread but not unanimous. The same can be said for Nazi Germany. If you applied the 80/20 rule the worst of the regime did the most horrendous of acts. The result was a war that ended in total surrender and complete removal of the regime. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/30 "2023-10-10T02:39:42Z")
Does Israel follow the Swiss model of post-service civilians keeping their reservist rifles at home? I’ve heard a lot of surprise that Hamas was able to so easily massacre Israeli citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/31 "2023-10-10T02:49:04Z")
I read a civilian can have one gun and 50 bullets with a lisc. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/32 "2023-10-10T03:41:18Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Why did this happen? A piece of land? Just to say I’m badder than you? For goods and services? What do they really want. I understand religion plays a big part in it. Why? You have to go back to the formation of Israel. Post WWII Jewish refugees were provided a homeland in what was somewhat governed at the time by Britain. Sadly, the people already living there that did not want to be part of that new nation were pushed out. There’s been anger and bad blood ever since. Note: I am greatly simplifying the complex history here. There are many easily accessible articles out there explaining the details. In sum: the peoples of the Holy Land have been fighting grievance wars since the formation of Israel itself. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/33 "2023-10-10T03:45:10Z")
Yes. I understand that. I’ve been reading. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/34 "2023-10-10T03:45:49Z")
Not to mention that the Middle East has historically been roiled by conflict for millennia. If Israel were eradicated, the various Arabic power centers would find someone else to demonize and clash with. See, e.g., Sunni versus Shia. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/35 "2023-10-10T03:46:05Z")
As regards intelligence failures, black swans remain black. It will be easy to look after the fact and say that warnings were missed or all the signs were there and were ignored but think back to the day before this happened. How big of a threat was Hamas regarded as? They were certainly regarded as dangerous but _this_ dangerous? Hamas punched above their weight big time here so it does not surprise me all that much that the intelligence services missed it. How seriously would they have taken advance warnings? They might have laughed these off or dismissed them out of hand because who knew Hamas could ever pull something this big? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/36 "2023-10-10T05:59:57Z")
Is there some part of the world that _hasn’t_ been roiled with conflict for millennia? 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/37 "2023-10-10T11:01:26Z")
Antarctica. Largely because for most of the history of the world there were no humans there, and the population is still vanishingly low. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/38 "2023-10-10T11:13:56Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > What is the siege intending to accomplish - collective punishment? I mean, does the IDF expect ordinary Gazans to eventually start turning over Hamas members to the Israeli authorities, once they get hungry enough? Could it be that they expect them to die? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/39 "2023-10-10T11:32:59Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Could it be that they expect them to die? At a Passover Seder pre-covid one of the guests was Isreali-American (born there, married an American and moved to Indiana). His hatred of Palestinians was visceral and appalling, referring to them in the same sort of terms the Nazis used in discussing the “Jewish problem” and I use that comparison deliberately. (When he started up the topic of conversation was quickly changed by the rest of those present) Absolutely there are _some_ Israelis that truly would wish the eradication of Palestinians. I am happy to say that _most_ Israelis I’ve encountered are not so appallingly bigoted. Unfortunately, there are some people presently in high government office in Israel who _do_ seem to have the same view of Palestinians as that past dinner guest. **I am very concerned that yes, there are people in the Israeli government who view this as an opportunity to kill off people they view as less than human.** A “compete siege” is intended to kill. If it goes on for longer than a day or two it WILL kill people. Lots of people. Given that Hamas is heavily armed and brutal I assume the actual culprits in this mess will be the _last_ to starve and die of thirst in such a siege. Especially since the leaders are rumored to be safe in a hotel in Qatar. _They_ are probably ordering room service and taking long showers with hot water while people actually in Gaza lack the very basics needed to survive. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2023, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/40 "2023-10-10T12:11:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > At a Passover Seder pre-covid one of the guests was Isreali-American (born there, married an American and moved to Indiana). His hatred of Palestinians was visceral and appalling, referring to them in the same sort of terms the Nazis used in discussing the “Jewish problem” and I use that comparison deliberately. (When he started up the topic of conversation was quickly changed by the rest of those present) Absolutely there are _some_ Israelis that truly would wish the eradication of Palestinians. I’m not one of those Israelis. I think you all know me well enough to know that I’m telling the truth. But if you’d asked me on Saturday afternoon, I’d have been in favor of nuking the Gaza Strip. Just kill them all and be done with it. Now, I’ve calmed down a bit since then, but what happened on Saturday can’t be allowed to ever happen again. _Ever_. No price is too high to ensure that. So if you have a solution that doesn’t involve killing tens of thousands of Palestinians, please share it with us, because I can’t think of any myself. _Never again_. Those words mean something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=3)