# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 200
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2024, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4116 "2024-05-24T09:13:47Z")
I’m not sure how I feel about BDS, but it feels a little… off, if someone supports BDS but has no problem buying stuff made in countries like China or India (or maybe even the US). So many of the policies of the Israeli government are awful in so many ways, but I don’t think they’re worse than many of the policies of those countries’ governments. I’m not even sure if they’re worse than, say, the US’s second Iraq War. Sadly, mass discrimination and mass civilian casualties are not particularly rare transgressions. Some non-zero amount of international focus on the sins of Israel is fueled by anti semitism. Which absolutely doesn’t justify any of the terrible things done or allowed by the Israeli government. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2024, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4117 "2024-05-24T09:39:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > if someone supports BDS but has no problem buying stuff made in countries like China or India I try not to buy Chinese-made goods either. But India? I mean, the Modi govt is chauvinistic, Islamophobic pants, but it’s not exactly committing genocide the way the Chinese or Israelis are. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > or maybe even the US Everyone knows how I feel about the US, but again, they’re not in the same league, even when y’all were in Iraq and Afghanistan. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some non-zero amount of international focus on the sins of Israel is fueled by anti semitism. Absolutely. _Lots_ isn’t, though. And yet calling the non-anti-semitic stuff anti-semitism is a common pro-Israeli tactic that dilutes _all_ accusations of anti-semitism. You want to call protesters anti-semites? Bring receipts. Merely being anti-Israel is not it. I’m anti-North-Korea, doesn’t mean I’m koryophobic. I’m anti-PRC, doesn’t mean I’m sinophobic. And my personal anti-Israel stance originally stems from Israeli activities that have nothing to do with Hamas, or Palestine at all. It just so happens that the State of Israel has always been apartheid-y, in [_multiple_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93South_Africa_relations#1967%E2%80%931987:_Strategic_cooperation) ways. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2024, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4118 "2024-05-24T10:08:23Z")
I hope you don’t think I was accusing you - just that I think part of the BDS movement is tainted (which doesn’t invalidate it or other criticism). I disagree about the comparison to those other countries, though. I’m not sure how to measure this kind of stuff, but the US has been responsible for hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in the last few decades, and China has brutally oppressed millions (likely tens or even hundreds of millions with varying degrees of brutality). IMO that’s definitely comparable to Israeli oppression and violence. Maybe you’re right about India. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2024, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4119 "2024-05-24T10:15:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > the US has been responsible for hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in the last few decades, Sure. And when it was actively doing so, I protested that activity. But I’m not going to not buy American _now_, any more than I’m not buying German or Japanese goods. > [@](#): > > and China has brutally oppressed millions. IMO that’s definitely comparable to Israeli oppression and violence. I already said I avoid Chinese goods, just like I do Israeli. Because I do believe the various PRC genocidal and settler colonist activities are comparable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2024, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4120 "2024-05-24T10:20:44Z")
Okay, that’s fair, if we’re talking about this very moment. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2024, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4121 "2024-05-24T13:32:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And my personal anti-Israel stance originally stems from Israeli activities that have nothing to do with Hamas, or Palestine at all. It just so happens that the State of Israel has always been apartheid-y, in [_multiple_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93South_Africa_relations#1967%E2%80%931987:_Strategic_cooperation) ways. So Israel is evil because in the 70s they dared to turn to any available ally; but today, when South Africa doesn’t like the US dominated global structure, it’s totally cool for them to hop on Iran and Russia’s dicks and start riding. Does South Africa’s Iranwards turn show that they are “Islamic Republic-y”, or can you understand forming diplomatic relations with people you don’t agree with ideologically as long as it’s not Israel doing it? ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2024, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4122 "2024-05-24T13:46:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not sure how I feel about BDS, but it feels a little… off, if someone supports BDS but has no problem buying stuff made in countries like China or India (or maybe even the US). So many of the policies of the Israeli government are awful in so many ways, but I don’t think they’re worse than many of the policies of those countries’ governments. I’m not even sure if they’re worse than, say, the US’s second Iraq War. Sadly, mass discrimination and mass civilian casualties are not particularly rare transgressions. What if it’s led by a rationale that a boycott campaign against Israel is more likely to have an effect than against countries like China? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2024, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4123 "2024-05-24T13:48:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So Israel is evil because in the 70s they dared to turn to any available ally Countries can’t be evil. “Dared to turn” is one way of putting it. They didn’t exactly hold their noses, actually. > [@Babale](#): > > today, when South Africa doesn’t like the US dominated global structure, it’s totally cool for them to hop on Iran and Russia’s dicks and start riding. Said who? Not me. You must have me mistaken for some kind of nationalist. Total _tu quoque_ fail. > [@Babale](#): > > can you understand forming diplomatic relations with people you don’t agree with ideologically Given I support lots of liberal govts while not being, myself, in the slightest bit liberal? Sure. Of course, supporting the Nats isn’t the only thing that makes Israel apartheid-y. I mean, it’s one of multiple, like I said - the on-the-ground Palestinian apartheid parts would still be there even if they hadn’t jumped into bed with actual racist fascists just to stay around. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2024, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4124 "2024-05-26T15:21:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The subsequent genocidal activities of the IDF haven’t exactly proven the Oct 8 protesters _wrong_. Again, how exactly is this a ‘Genocide’ Because I don’t see it at all Hamas on Oct 7th on the other hand, provided a small example of what they would do if they ever had the capabilities of the IDF, which is genocidal in intent ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2024, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4125 "2024-05-26T15:28:23Z")
We’ve had endless back and forth about why this is genocide, from now I’m only going to address this kind of question in the related Pit thread, feel free to ask this question there and @ me. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4126 "2024-05-27T12:15:03Z")
Ok but your terminology is opinion not fact ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4127 "2024-05-27T12:32:59Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > but your terminology is opinion not fact Right, it’s all about fallacious emotional responses rather than looking at the facts. The perfect encapsulation of this process, where nonsense is distilled into highly concentrated bullshit, is the recent story where virtue signaling newspapers and activists breathlessly declared that “_Half_ of all Israeli bombs dropped in Gaza are _ **dUmB bOmBs ermaghad it’s a gEnOcIdE, screeeeeeeeeeech** _.” Of course, an honest analysis of facts would reveal a number of key factors: 1. just because a bomb does not come equipped with its own internal guidance system does not mean it is wildly lobbed towards the enemy. 2. 55-60% use of guided munitions represents a significant _increase_ in the percent of bombs that are guided compared to prior conflicts, both by Israel and when compared to similar US operations. 3. An unguided bomb dropped from an aircraft may well be _more_ accurate than guided artillery munitions, for example; so again, this “guided/unguided” split is pretty arbitrary. But on an _emotional_ level, none of that matters, because didn’t you hear?!?! _hAlF tHe BoMbS aRe UnGuIdEd_!!!111eleven11!!! If I didn’t think it was completely intentional, I’d be shaking my head at the absolute stupidity displayed by any journalist parroting the “half the bombs are unguided” line. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4128 "2024-05-27T14:49:37Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Ok but “Ok but…” nothing. There’s a Pit thread, take it up there. @Babale, that’s nice and all, but have _I_ mentioned dumb bombs when delineating this particular genocide? Nope, and I’d happily say more - in the Pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4129 "2024-05-27T14:50:26Z")
And then people get all emotional when it’s reported how many civilians are dying in these attacks. Why can’t they just treat those deaths as numbers? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4130 "2024-05-27T18:37:18Z")
Moderating > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Ok but your terminology is opinion not fact I think we’ve thrashed the definition of “genocide” to death in this thread, and it’s not something we are going to agree on, and it’s also maybe not relevant if “killing this many civilians and destroying the infrastructure in that way” is “genocide”. I’d like to request that 1. folks avoid the use of the word “genocide”. There are lots of other words to describe what the IDF is doing in Gaza. 2. if the word “genocide” is used, just report it, and don’t argue over it. 3. and of course, please feel free to use the pit thread if you find that restriction overly limiting. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4131 "2024-05-27T18:52:03Z")
No worries I’m in the pit ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4132 "2024-05-29T20:27:38Z")
I’ve started a thread [specifically about discussing the ICJ ruling](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/icj-ruling-on-rafah-offensive-in-gaza/1002240). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2024, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4133 "2024-05-29T22:53:46Z")
Thank, @MrDibble . I did not mean to restrict the word in every context or in every thread. Just in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4134 "2024-06-08T22:42:00Z")
Israel has rescued four hostages from the music festival, who Hamas were holding in (wouldn’t ya know it?) a refugee camp. > **[Israel rescues four hostages in operation Gazan officials say killed more...](https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/08/middleeast/four-israeli-hostages-freed-gaza-intl/index.html)** > > Four Israeli hostages have been freed in a special operation in the Nuseirat refugee camp. ---
**Author:** ![P91noX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@P91noX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P91noX)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2024, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4135 "2024-06-08T23:16:00Z")
I was thrilled to read the news this morning, and more than a little surprised to find that any of the hostages were still alive. Unfortunately, one of the rescuers sustained fatal injuries during the operation. I’m surprised that the hostages were kept in apartment buildings rather than underground in tunnels - I wonder what the rationale for that decision was. Also, I was very surprised to see the hostages appeared in reasonably good visual condition - obviously captivity itself is traumatic enough and who knows what they endured, but I when I clicked the article I was expecting them to look like the recently engaged Ukrainian POWs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=199) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=201)