# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 201
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2024, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4136 "2024-06-09T08:57:43Z")
> [@P91noX](#): > > I’m surprised that the hostages were kept in apartment buildings rather than underground in tunnels - I wonder what the rationale for that decision was. They have been moved around throughout the war, especially as the war has been quite destructive to the tunnel networks. The fact that Hamas had them out of the tunnel network is precisely why Israel had the opportunity to make the rescue attempt. I’m sure Israel has intelligence on the locations of a number of hostages, but if they’re hundreds of feet below Gaza in a tunnel, there isn’t really anything Israel can directly do to get them out, other than keep attacking Hamas until they are forced to move hostages again, generating further opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2024, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4137 "2024-06-09T10:02:58Z")
Since Israel has made all of Gaza a refugee camp, why would the fact that they were being held in a refugee camp be at all surprising, to anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4138 "2024-06-11T06:18:53Z")
Question: is specifically believing that Israel has no right to self defense, on its own, antisemitic? Does saying the opposite (eg Bernie Sanders) necessarily mean you’re pro-Israel? Or is there a subtlety here that I’m unaware of? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4139 "2024-06-11T08:28:40Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > is specifically believing that Israel has no right to self defense, on its own, antisemitic? I’d say you’d have to believe it for antisemitic reasons, like Jews not having the same right to self defence as other countries/peoples or something. Does anyone claim Israel doesn’t have that right, though? I mean, is anyone down on Israel for running Iron Dome? I don’t think so. It’s Israeli _offensives_ that people take issue with. > [@Leaper](#): > > Does saying the opposite (eg Bernie Sanders) necessarily mean you’re pro-Israel? Definitely not. For example, I think Israel definitely has a right to self defence. I am very much not pro-Israel (meaning Israel-as-it-exists-now.) > [@Leaper](#): > > is there a subtlety here that I’m unaware of? There’s nothing subtle about the weaponization of the antisemitism accusation. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4140 "2024-06-11T14:16:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Does anyone claim Israel doesn’t have that right, though? I mean, is anyone down on Israel for running Iron Dome? I don’t think so. And as I’ve said above, there is basically zero criticism of Israel for combat deaths of actual Hamas militants. Even people who are pro-Palestinian and/or anti-Zionist to the extent of always calling Hamas attacks “armed resistance” generally agree that when a Hamas militant is attacking an Israeli soldier, the Israeli soldier is entitled to shoot back. Trying to lump together all Israeli attacks on Palestinians under the heading “Israel’s right to self defense”, though, is transparently just a propaganda move. If I’m being attacked by a rapist, for example, I don’t get to haul out an AK-47 and light up the entire street in “self-defense”. Not even if some of my victims might be the rapist’s neighbors or friends and family, or even criminals themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4141 "2024-06-11T16:11:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Does anyone claim Israel doesn’t have that right, though? Nobody prominent; just random online people. I hadn’t heard that argument before, and was trying to get a sense of whether such folks were necessarily “death to Israel” types or, as I said, I was missing something. I’ve wondered the same about “from the river to the sea.” > [@MrDibble](#): > > There’s nothing subtle about the weaponization of the antisemitism accusation. …I agree? Not sure who you’re referring to, though…? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4142 "2024-06-11T17:43:15Z")
More confirmation that Israel is losing, and Hamas is winning, because slaughter and carnage help Hamas: > ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4143 "2024-06-11T20:37:41Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Nobody prominent; just random online people. Link? > [@Leaper](#): > > Not sure who you’re referring to, though…? The Israel defenders who call any and all anti-Israel sentiment antisemitism. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4144 "2024-06-11T21:02:53Z")
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/blinken-says-hamas-signal-support-un-backed-gaza-truce-deal-is-hopeful-sign-2024-06-11/#:~:text=Biden’s%20proposal%20envisages%20a%20ceasefire,permanent%20end%20to%20the%20war](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/blinken-says-hamas-signal-support-un-backed-gaza-truce-deal-is-hopeful-sign-2024-06-11/#:~:text=Biden's%20proposal%20envisages%20a%20ceasefire,permanent%20end%20to%20the%20war). TEL AVIV/CAIRO, June 11 (Reuters) - _Hamas accepts a U.N. resolution backing a plan to end the war with Israel in Gaza and is ready to negotiate details, a senior official of the Palestinian militant group said on Tuesday in what the U.S. Secretary of State called a hopeful sign._ _Qatari and Egyptian mediators said they had received a formal reply from Hamas to the U.N.-backed truce proposal, and Hamas and its ally Palestinian Islamic Jihad expressed “readiness to positively” reach a deal to end the war in Gaza in a joint statement on Tuesday._ ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4145 "2024-06-11T21:43:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Link? Well, if you’re really that interested, sure, [here’s the OP](https://www.tumblr.com/holyfigtree/752167215168634880) of the post that set me thinking about this. (Look in comments, reblogs, and reblog tags for some of the content I speak of beyond the initial screenshot from Twitter. I’m also making no assumptions about this group’s size or power in general.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2024, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4146 "2024-06-11T23:40:28Z")
> **[Hamas demands changes to Biden ceasefire plan](https://www.ft.com/content/84399461-dbf4-4b54-bc77-afe44adcc63c)** > > US says some gaps between Israel and Palestinian militants are ‘bridgeable’ — but others are not # Hamas and Islamic Jihad respond to Joe Biden’s Gaza peace plan _Palestinian militant groups offer ‘amendments’ to US-backed proposals with talks to continue via mediators_ Of course they are. Why should they care about the people of Gaza? They are making themselves rich by stealing food aid and selling it. They have it good, they are not suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4147 "2024-06-12T00:00:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Of course they are. Why should they care about the people of Gaza? [![](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53778843334_5d341c96e4_n.jpg) ](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53778843334_5d341c96e4_n.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4148 "2024-06-12T00:38:58Z")
Hamas is winning. Israel is doing what Hamas wants. Israel responded exactly as Hamas expected and wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4149 "2024-06-12T00:47:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Hamas is winning. Sure they are. That’s why they’re trying to get a ceasefire now. Because of all the winning they’re doing. They’re winning so much they’re getting tired of winning. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4150 "2024-06-12T00:50:22Z")
Hey look, it’s Smapti trying to twist around what’s actually happening again! Unless you have evidence of Hamas actively shooting 30,000 Palestinians, of course. If so, I welcome your evidence. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4151 "2024-06-12T00:58:26Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Unless you have evidence of Hamas actively shooting 30,000 Palestinians, of course. I Who caused those Palestinians to di in the first place- who started the war? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4152 "2024-06-12T01:21:35Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That’s why they’re trying to get a ceasefire now. They’re not. At least some responsible parties in Israel are, though. Not all Israelis are as malevolent and/or stupid as Netanyahu and his allies. Some would prefer not to dance to Hamas’s tune. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4153 "2024-06-12T01:36:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They’re not. At least some responsible parties in Israel are, though. Israel has agreed to the plan the USA and UN did. Hamas said they would- but did not. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4154 "2024-06-12T01:39:07Z")
Who’s putting bullets in Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4155 "2024-06-12T01:39:07Z")
Netanyahu and his allies say they will reject the ceasefire. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=200) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=202)