# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 203
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4176 "2024-06-13T18:19:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And Hamas gets stronger, and Israel gets weaker. Uh huh. “From the river to the sea” works both ways. Better living through war isn’t helping the people of Gaza and Hamas is the cause. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4177 "2024-06-13T18:22:35Z")
I’m not sure what your point is. Of course the people of Gaza are suffering, but that doesn’t change that this war is weakening Israel and strengthening Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4178 "2024-06-14T02:24:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Of course the people of Gaza are suffering, but that doesn’t change that this war is weakening Israel and strengthening Hamas. That’s a contradiction of terms. The people of Gaza and Hamas are not distinguishable from each other. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4179 "2024-06-14T03:03:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The USA and the UN and Israel came up with a peace plan. Hamas has rejected it. …this isn’t a “peace plan.” It was a cease-fire proposal, one of many that have been presented since the start of the war, that _hasn’t been accepted by Israel_, but [Hamas were open to negotiations.](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hamas-accepts-un-ceasefire-resolution-ready-negotiate-over-details-official-says-2024-06-11/) For some bizarre reason, the US administration keeps insisting that Israel have agreed to the deal when they _have not_. Even your own cite quite clearly says that “framing the Hamas response as a rejection is misleading.” ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4180 "2024-06-14T03:10:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The people of Gaza and Hamas are not distinguishable from each other. …the people of Gaza and Hamas _are_ clearly distinguishable from each other. Surely you aren’t calling toddlers members of Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4181 "2024-06-14T03:15:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > For some bizarre reason, the US administration keeps insisting that Israel have agreed to the deal when they _have not_. He did not go into specific details about the changes, but he continued to cast exclusive blame for the stalling of the deal – and the prolonging of the suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza – on the US-designated terrorist group, not on Israel. “Israel accepted the proposal as it was,” he reiterated,…“Hamas could have answered with a single word – yes,” he said. Yes, that crook and general asshole netanyahu is making some noises. But Blinken has got Israel to agree. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4182 "2024-06-14T03:20:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He did not go into specific details about the changes, but he continued to cast exclusive blame for the stalling of the deal – and the prolonging of the suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza – on the US-designated terrorist group, not on Israel. “Israel accepted the proposal as it was,” he reiterated,…“Hamas could have answered with a single word – yes,” he said. …except Israel haven’t accepted the deal as it was. Charitably, he is mistaken. Uncharitably, he’s lying. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, that crook and general asshole netanyahu is making some noises. But Blinken has got Israel to agree. Cite please. Not from Blinken. Not from anyone in the US administration. But from Israel. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4183 "2024-06-14T03:24:37Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Cite please. Not from Blinken. Not from anyone in the US administration. But from Israel. [Will Israel accept the new UN Gaza ceasefire resolution? | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/11/will-israel-accept-the-un-backed-gaza-ceasefire-resolution#:~:text=The%20resolution's%20text%20says%20Israel,initiative%20is%20an%20Israeli%20one). _The resolution’s text says Israel has accepted Biden’s May 31 ceasefire proposal and “calls upon Hamas to also accept it”._ The UN says so. Netanyahu is just making noises, but the signatures are on the resolution. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4184 "2024-06-14T03:24:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …the people of Gaza and Hamas _are_ clearly distinguishable from each other. Surely you aren’t calling toddlers members of Hamas. That’s not a legitimate argument. Children have always represented collateral casualties in war and doubly so for Gaza due to Hamas’s guerilla tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4185 "2024-06-14T03:25:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s not a legitimate argument. …are children Hamas or not? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4186 "2024-06-14T03:26:18Z")
Explained in the post above. If you don’t understand that then that’s on you. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4187 "2024-06-14T03:29:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Explained in the post above. …nah, it wasn’t. The people of Gaza and Hamas are not the same. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4188 "2024-06-14T03:31:11Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …are children Hamas or not? Depends on how we define “children” and “Hamas”. You know, considering how Hamas uses child soldiers and all. [https://www.dci-palestine.org/child\_recruitment](https://www.dci-palestine.org/child_recruitment) > **[EN\_RIET\_2022\_N7\_Child-soldiers-in-Palestinian-groups-forced-recruitment-and-use-of-minors-as-a-violation-of-International-Humanitarian-Law\_daniel-perez-garcia\_art2.pdf](https://rietjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/EN_RIET_2022_N7_Child-soldiers-in-Palestinian-groups-forced-recruitment-and-use-of-minors-as-a-violation-of-International-Humanitarian-Law_daniel-perez-garcia_art2.pdf)** > > 429.12 KB > **[You're Being Misled About the Gaza Death Toll](https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-using-child-soldiers-add-it-their-list-war-crimes-opinion-1859652)** > > It is a tragedy every time a child is killed in war, which is precisely why Hamas's use of child soldiers is a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4189 "2024-06-14T03:35:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The UN says so. …Conceded. However, this context is missing: > [@](#): > > He said Hamas accepted [the proposal](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/6/text-of-the-ceasefire-proposal-approved-by-hamas) presented by Qatar and Egypt on May 6 as it is, and it was Israel that added amendments to it. Hamas’s response on Tuesday was counter-revisions to some of the Israeli changes, Al-Nunu said. > > According to Al-Nunu, Hamas’s notes aimed to ensure that Israel would not renege on the deal and resume the war after the first phase, which would see the release of some of its captives in Gaza. > > Asked whether Hamas would be flexible about demands labelled “not workable” by Blinken, Al-Nunu said it is “normal” for negotiating parties to accept or reject amendments to a proposal. > **[Blinken says some Hamas changes to Gaza ceasefire proposal ‘not workable’](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/12/blinken-slams-hamas-says-us-still-pushing-for-gaza-truce-deal)** > > Qatari PM Sheikh Mohammed says ceasefire negotiations are ongoing with room for ‘give and take’ to reach an agreement. I think characterizing this as a “rejection” is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4190 "2024-06-14T03:38:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I think characterizing this as a “rejection” is incorrect. Was it flat out NO? True, it was not. They didnt say that. But as Blinken said- if Hamas said YES, the killing would stop… until next time of course. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4191 "2024-06-14T04:09:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But as Blinken said- if Hamas said YES, the killing would stop… until next time of course. …but Blinken isn’t a neutral party. Let’s not pretend that he is. Its not even a close thing. The US administration if firmly, 100%, backing Israel, and every single statement from a member of the US administration needs to be viewed in that context. Israel doesn’t need a cease fire agreement for the killing to stop. They’ve got complete air, land and sea superiority. They control all of the borders. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4192 "2024-06-14T04:15:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Israel doesn’t need a cease fire agreement for the killing to stop. They’ve got complete air, land and sea superiority. They control all of the borders. All the more reason for Hamas to surrender. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4193 "2024-06-14T05:04:04Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Israel doesn’t need a cease fire agreement for the killing to stop. They’ve got complete air, land and sea superiority. They control all of the borders. If that were completely true, October 7th wouldn’t have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4194 "2024-06-14T06:02:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > All the more reason for Hamas to surrender. …a surrender wouldn’t guarantee the end of Israel’s bombing and demolition campaign. And the current deal on the table, in their opinion, wouldn’t do that either. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > If that were completely true, October 7th wouldn’t have happened. Its as “true” as the idea that all Hamas has to do for the killing to stop would be to say “yes.” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4195 "2024-06-14T06:04:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …a surrender wouldn’t guarantee the end of Israel’s bombing and demolition campaign You know what definitely won’t guarantee the end of the bombing and demolition? _Continuing to fight to the last man_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=202) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=204)