# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 205
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4216 "2024-06-16T20:05:28Z")
3 posts were split to a new topic: [Accidental Post in wrong thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/accidental-post-in-wrong-thread/1002954) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4219 "2024-06-16T20:04:24Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m not sure how relevant that is to this thread It is quite relevant as many of the hostages reported being mistreated, incuding rapes. > **[U.N. finds 'clear and convincing' information that hostages have been raped...](https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/un-finds-clear-convincing-information-hostages-raped-gaza-rcna141789)** > > A senior U.N. official also found “reasonable grounds to believe” accounts of rape and gang rape during Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on Israel. _A senior United Nations official found “clear and convincing” information that hostages have been raped and sexually abused in Gaza and “reasonable grounds” to believe sexual violence, including rape and gang rape, occurred during the Oct. 7 terrorist attack led by Hamas._ _“Based on the information it gathered, the mission team found clear and convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment has been committed against hostages," the U.N. said in a report, adding that it "has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing against those still held in captivity.”_ Mind you, Israel treatment of palestinian prisoners is not very good- > **[Report finds inhumane treatment of inmates widespread in Israeli prisons](https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-finds-inhumane-treatment-of-inmates-widespread-in-israeli-prisons/)** > > Inspectors detail binding of prisoners for days at a time, strip searches without proper cause, and cells infested by rats, bedbugs and cockroaches ## Inspectors detail binding of prisoners for days at a time, strip searches without proper cause, and cells infested by rats, bedbugs and cockroaches ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4220 "2024-06-16T22:30:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It is quite relevant as many of the hostages reported being mistreated, incuding rapes. > > [U.N. finds 'clear and convincing' information that hostages have been raped in Gaza](https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/un-finds-clear-convincing-information-hostages-raped-gaza-rcna141789) …things related to Gaza and Hamas are of _course_ relevant to this thread. Things related to how prisoners of war were allegedly treated in Lebanon? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4221 "2024-06-16T23:02:44Z")
> **[Military ‘pause’ on Gaza road inflames divisions in Israeli government](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c2992985yk1o)** > > The announcement of a "local, tactical pause" in fighting triggered a furious response from far-right ministers. > Israel’s humanitarian aid coordinator for Gaza set out the details of the scheduled daily pause in fighting between 08:00 and 19:00 local time, along a key route running north from the Kerem Shalom crossing point, where aid is waiting to be delivered. > The announcement almost immediately triggered a furious political assault from far-right government ministers – and a rapid defence from Israel’s army, insisting that it did not signal an end to the fighting in southern Gaza, or any change to the entry of humanitarian aid. > The fact that this announcement has proved so explosive highlights the increasingly fraught situation of Israel’s prime minister, caught between the costs of his vague and so far unattainable military goals of dismantling Hamas and bringing home the hostages, and the political allies he relies on to stay in power. Another example of how this incompetent, malevolent government is incapable of leading a successful campaign. The IDF has shown itself to be far from what we thought in terms of competence and discipline, but far worse than the IDF’s falloff in competence is the utter chaos in command and control from the civilian leadership. No clear mission, no clear orders, no clear communication, no clear anything. This government is incapable of any sort of success in this war. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4222 "2024-06-16T23:30:53Z")
Since I brought some of this stuff up, perhaps we can agree that it should not matter if your enemy, or some third party, are mistreating their prisoners— you are still not permitted to abuse your prisoners. As for taking place in a democracy or not, not sure that principle is really up for public debate (if a majority voted to torture prisoners for interrogation because fuck them, who cares… then what? It’s still not ok even, indeed especially, if a majority are bad people). ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4223 "2024-06-16T23:41:02Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > perhaps we can agree that it should not matter if your enemy, or some third party, are mistreating their prisoners— you are still not permitted to abuse your prisoners. …was this even in dispute? I wasn’t aware that this was a debate. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4224 "2024-06-17T00:14:25Z")
If we are still talking about Israel, I too am not aware that there is a formal debate there about what to do with Palestinian prisoners, at least in public, but that does not mean everybody feels so unequivocal about it as you and I. Unless the “widespread inhumane treatment of inmates” is supposed to be attributed to a few bad eggs. I would hazard it is simply out of sight, out of mind, to the typical average person who does not deal with these matters. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4225 "2024-06-17T01:46:49Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > but that does not mean everybody feels so unequivocal about it as you and I. …I’m still not getting the point. The Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian law lay out the requirements on how prisoners of war and detainees should be treated, and neither side are respecting those requirements. And what is happening here is unrelated to anecdotes about what may have happened to a prisoner of war in Lebanon. Its pretty obvious that support for international law isn’t equivocal. There are people in this _thread_ who argue it doesn’t actually exist. But again, I’m not sure what it is you want to discuss. Its happening, whether the average person wants to pretend that it isn’t or not. And it can’t be attributed to “a few bad eggs.” Because this is systematic, and has been documented for decades. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4226 "2024-06-17T02:04:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Its pretty obvious that support for international law isn’t equivocal. Just to clarify, did you mean to write “It’s pretty obvious that support for international law _is_ equivocal”? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4227 "2024-06-17T08:17:40Z")
How about, being a nominal democracy [so, you are right, may as well forget about Lebanon, Syria, Gaza, etc.] might make— well, everything we are seeing— less likely, but is evidently not sufficient because it’s happening, even systemic as you say. Not that this is an exclusively Israeli phenomenon, to be clear. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4228 "2024-06-17T11:59:21Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Not that this is an exclusively Israeli phenomenon, to be clear. …it doesn’t matter if it is or it isn’t. This thread is about the current conflict. So talking about how Hamas and how Israel treat their prisoners is relevant. From 2020: > **[“Treated like animals”: Palestinian children face inhumane treatment in...](https://www.savethechildren.net/news/%E2%80%9Ctreated-animals%E2%80%9D-palestinian-children-face-inhumane-treatment-israeli-run-prisons)** > > Children in the Israeli military detention system face inhumane treatment such as beatings, strip searches, psychological abuse. > [@](#): > > Children in the Israeli military detention system face inhumane treatment such as beatings, strip searches, psychological abuse, weeks in solitary confinement, and being denied access to a lawyer during interrogations, [new research by Save the Children](https://resourcecentre.savethechildren.net/library/defenceless-impact-israeli-military-detention-palestinian-children) found. > > Save the Children consulted more than 470 children from across the West Bank who have been detained over the past ten years. The organisation found that the majority of children were taken from their homes at night, blindfolded, with their hands painfully bound behind their backs. Many of the respondents said were not told why they were being arrested or where they were going. This isn’t something that started with this conflict. And things have simply escalated now, with thousands of prisoners, many just simply disappeared with family in Gaza not knowing if they are alive in detention or buried under the rubble. This doesn’t mean Hamas holding the hostages is right, or defensible, or not a warcrime or an atrocity because it is. But context is important. Gaza is holding around 120 hostages, Israel has thousands. Gaza is killing maybe 10 soldiers a week (most weeks its less than this), Israel is killing hundreds of people, including women and children, in that same time. I haven’t provided an update on the ground in a while, so now is as good a time as any. > [@](#): > > Between the afternoons of 10 and 14 June, according to the Ministry of Health (MoH) in Gaza, 142 Palestinians were killed and 396 were injured. Between 7 October 2023 and 14 June 2024, at least 37,266 Palestinians were killed and 85,102 were injured in Gaza, according to MoH in Gaza. > [@](#): > > Israeli evacuation orders and military operations since early May have so far forced the displacement of about one million people from Rafah and more than 100,000 people in northern Gaza. > > … > > The majority of displaced people from Rafah sought refuge in the already overcrowded and resource-depleted governorates of Khan Younis and Deir al Balah. > [@](#): > > The inability to provide health services safely, coupled with the lack of clean water and sanitation, are exacerbating malnutrition risks in Gaza. > > … > > While over 8,000 children under the age of five have been already diagnosed for acute malnutrition, ongoing insecurity, access constraints and large-scale displacement continue to hamper the critical scale-up of identification of cases of malnourished children at the community level, explains the Nutrition Cluster. On 11 June, UNICEF further [warned](https://www.unicef.org/sop/press-releases/almost-3000-malnourished-children-risk-dying-their-families-eyes-rafah-offensive) that almost 3,000 children, who were receiving treatment for acute malnutrition in the south prior to the military escalation in Rafah, have now been cut off from life-saving services due to displacement and shrinking treatment capacity; only two stabilization centres for severely malnourished children are now functional in Gaza, one in North Gaza and one in Deir al Balah. > [@](#): > > Over 76 per cent of schools in Gaza are now assessed as requiring full reconstruction or major rehabilitation to be functional again, up from 73 per cent. The assessment also highlights a “continuous spike in the direct targeting of schools,” with 23 facilities that had already been classified as “damaged” in the previous analysis being affected by additional direct hits in April. Among school buildings used as IDP shelters, 69 per cent have been directly hit or damaged, up from 65 per cent in March. More at the link. > **[United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied...](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/humanitarian-situation-update-179-gaza-strip)** > > Only two stabilization centres for severely malnourished children remain functional across the Gaza Strip as catastrophic hunger grips a significant portion of Gaza’s population, warn UN agencies ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2024, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4229 "2024-06-19T06:27:50Z")
Hezbollah is saber-rattling now. > **[Israel warns of prospect of ‘all-out war’ after Hezbollah publishes video of...](https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/18/middleeast/hezbollah-drone-video-israel-haifa-intl-latam/index.html)** > > Israel’s Foreign Minister slammed the Lebanese militant group after it published a 9-minute drone video showing Israeli military and civilian locations in several Israeli cities. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2024, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4230 "2024-06-19T10:54:12Z")
Moderating: > [@Smapti](#): > > Hezbollah is saber-rattling now This thread is about the altercation between Hamas and Israel in Gaza. Please don’t expand it to include other regional conflicts, even though they may be related. Feel free to start a new thread for this post, but it’s not appropriate in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2024, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4231 "2024-06-19T23:27:52Z")
> > Wild that an IDF spokesman is saying this. ‘…“Hamas is an idea, Hamas is a political party. It is rooted in the hearts of people– whoever thinks we can eliminate Hamas is mistaken,” Hagari continued. “[Hamas] is the Muslim Brotherhood, it’s been around for many, many years.”…’ ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4232 "2024-06-24T03:05:13Z")
Palpatine says the “intense phase of war with Hamas” is about to end. > **[‘Intense phase of war with Hamas about to end,’ focus to shift to Lebanon...](https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/23/middleeast/intense-phase-hamas-war-end-netanyahu-lebanon-intl-latam/index.html)** > > Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Sunday that the “intense phase of the war with Hamas (in Gaza) is about to end,” and that the military’s focus could then shift to Israel’s northern border with Lebanon. Big if true. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4233 "2024-06-24T08:49:07Z")
…from Save the Chldren: > [@](#): > > Up to 21,000 [1] children are estimated to be missing in the chaos of the war in Gaza, many trapped beneath rubble, detained, buried in unmarked graves, or lost from their families, said Save the Children. > > … > > t is nearly impossible to collect and verify information under the current conditions in Gaza, but at least 17,000 children are believed to [be unaccompanied and separated](https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.unicef.org%2Fpress-releases%2Fstories-loss-and-grief-least-17000-children-are-estimated-be-unaccompanied-or&data=05%7C02%7Camie.richardson%40scnz.org.nz%7C84cb801ece7f4d13fc1408dc9406c212%7Ccc586fccf9b04ce4b1e1e928aa024244%7C0%7C0%7C638548004100873375%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=U%2FHzbPub0gZ8UniNX8LeMrF7xMWlrRDx7zc%2BhNLAZkw%3D&reserved=0) and approximately 4,000 children are likely missing under the rubble [2], with an unknown number also in [mass graves](https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ohchr.org%2Fen%2Fpress-releases%2F2024%2F05%2Fonslaught-violence-against-women-and-children-gaza-unacceptable-un-experts%23%3A~%3Atext%3DOver%2520390%2520bodies%2520have%2520been%2Calive%252C%25E2%2580%259D%2520the%2520experts%2520said&data=05%7C02%7Camie.richardson%40scnz.org.nz%7C84cb801ece7f4d13fc1408dc9406c212%7Ccc586fccf9b04ce4b1e1e928aa024244%7C0%7C0%7C638548004100884386%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JntK64GIHhiWvDaXiAVixFT7%2Fa%2FH6DuJbrpdy4PL0OM%3D&reserved=0) . Others have been forcibly disappeared, including an unknown number [detained and forcibly transferred](https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ohchr.org%2Fen%2Fpress-releases%2F2024%2F02%2Fisraelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against&data=05%7C02%7Camie.richardson%40scnz.org.nz%7C84cb801ece7f4d13fc1408dc9406c212%7Ccc586fccf9b04ce4b1e1e928aa024244%7C0%7C0%7C638548004100892153%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=FP%2FIRlVTu%2BIunbcf0Arx7rl1tTJisY9nGc1Dn5kvks0%3D&reserved=0) out of Gaza, their whereabouts unknown to their families amidst [reports of ill-treatment and torture.](https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.unrwa.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fcontent%2Fresources%2Fsummary_on_detention_and_alleged_ill-treatmentupdated.pdf&data=05%7C02%7Camie.richardson%40scnz.org.nz%7C84cb801ece7f4d13fc1408dc9406c212%7Ccc586fccf9b04ce4b1e1e928aa024244%7C0%7C0%7C638548004100899217%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QQcmbowDqvCLM%2Fdz8xFQCiMM%2BTYDWO7%2BYTkuVpW%2FO3o%3D&reserved=0) Thats on top of this: > [@](#): > > According to Gaza’s Ministry of Health, [more than 14,000 children](https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.unicef.org%2Femergencies%2Fchildren-gaza-need-lifesaving-support%23%3A~%3Atext%3DMore%2520than%252014%252C000%2520children%2520have%2Cwhich%2520will%2520last%2520a%2520lifetime.&data=05%7C02%7Camie.richardson%40scnz.org.nz%7C84cb801ece7f4d13fc1408dc9406c212%7Ccc586fccf9b04ce4b1e1e928aa024244%7C0%7C0%7C638548004100913462%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hHpSeMDfSDEWmYObDGrOmhvpIQ2u0gv4dWRji3qfj94%3D&reserved=0) have been killed since 7 October, roughly half of whom have not yet been fully identified, partially due to their bodies being harmed beyond recognition [3]. Children are also among those recently found in mass graves, [according to UN experts](https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ohchr.org%2Fen%2Fpress-releases%2F2024%2F05%2Fonslaught-violence-against-women-and-children-gaza-unacceptable-un-experts%23%3A~%3Atext%3DOver%2520390%2520bodies%2520have%2520been%2Calive%252C%25E2%2580%259D%2520the%2520experts%2520said.&data=05%7C02%7Camie.richardson%40scnz.org.nz%7C84cb801ece7f4d13fc1408dc9406c212%7Ccc586fccf9b04ce4b1e1e928aa024244%7C0%7C0%7C638548004100920557%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yaOT2C2t874zplzzcuGRMsOl%2BPWePpYjmJKBB3ZkCv8%3D&reserved=0) , with many showing signs of torture and summary executions, as well as potential [instances of people buried alive](https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ohchr.org%2Fen%2Fpress-releases%2F2024%2F05%2Fonslaught-violence-against-women-and-children-gaza-unacceptable-un-experts%23%3A~%3Atext%3DOver%2520390%2520bodies%2520have%2520been%2Calive%252C%25E2%2580%259D%2520the%2520experts%2520said&data=05%7C02%7Camie.richardson%40scnz.org.nz%7C84cb801ece7f4d13fc1408dc9406c212%7Ccc586fccf9b04ce4b1e1e928aa024244%7C0%7C0%7C638548004100928034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=X%2FSLOVH%2FC4NajMUsToFHShO0kYwCpzYhCBMmgiMRvoY%3D&reserved=0). > **[GAZA: Over 20,000 children estimated to be lost, buried | Save the Children](https://www.savethechildren.org.nz/media-hub/gaza-over-20000-children-estimated-to-be-lost-buried)** > > Up to 21,000 \[1\] children are estimated to be missing in the chaos of the war in Gaza, many trapped beneath rubble, detained, or buried. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4234 "2024-07-08T08:18:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because you believe in it. You believe war crimes are a thing, and that it is desirable that they not occur. If both parties are committing war crimes, then the logical way of bringing about the end of those events is that the weaker party - I.e. Hamas, which is incapable of holding or defending territory or protecting the lives of its citizens - should surrender, whereupon there will be no need for the stronger party to continue with its aggression. In other words - you’re saying might makes right. History shows that the “aggression” - which is actually oppression and killing - usually doesn’t stop when the surrender occurs. > [@Smapti](#): > > Surely both parties can’t be equally wrong. One must be less wrong than the other. Why not? Why can’t both sides be horrible, murderous thugs? > [@Smapti](#): > > Israel. Because they are the liberal democracy opposing a fascist theocracy with genocidal intentions. Israel might be a democracy but the government is NOT liberal. Netanyahu wants changes that would bring Israel closer to being a fascist theocracy. A couple ministers (ben Gvir, Smotrich) have openly called for both apartheid and genocide. > [@Smapti](#): > > It’s a promise to its citizens that they have rights that are protected by law, which is far more than can be said of the Hamas regime. Promise? Smotrich wants to not only strip anyone not Jewish of full rights, he also wants to declare quite a few people now considered Jewish of that status so he can remove them from Israel. He’s not some hothead with a social media platform, he’s Finance Minister. He’s “protecting” the rights of non-Jewish Israeli citizens the way the Vichy Regime in France “protected” their Jewish citizens. > [@Smapti](#): > > if it were fully capable of living up to the philosophical ideals of its leaders, it would still be a worse place to live than Israel, because Israel aspires towards maximum individual freedom and Gaza aspires towards fundamentalist theocracy. You’re ignoring the fact that there elements in Israel who _also_ want a fundamentalist theocracy and some of those individuals are actually in the current Israeli government. ---
**Author:** ![Ferris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ferris/32/11573_2.png) [@Ferris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferris)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2024, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4235 "2024-07-09T03:57:14Z")
Can anyone suggest a source to help estimate the current strength of Hamas? [This US-focused report from June](https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12549) doesn’t provide useful numbers, and I was interested in: How many overall members Hamas has now, compared to pre-Oct 7? It’s described as a ‘military and sociopolitical movement’, so what % of the total is in the military arm (i.e. actively fighting Israel)? Has that percentage changed since October? Any indication that fighters may have escaped to Lebanon or elsewhere in order to wait out the Israeli operation? And are pressures being put on Lebanon or other countries ‘hosting’ Hamas leaders to have them arrested? Apologies if there are good answers upthread already - I haven’t read all the posts (or the Pit thread). ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4236 "2024-07-12T13:23:19Z")
No numbers, but [Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com) has the best information. Elimination of Hamas is just a red herring, the real goal is reoccupation of Gaza and eventual [colonization](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/4/what-does-israels-want-gaza). Deliberate displacement and extermination of the Palestinian population of Gaza is being carried out in plain sight. Israel had an opportunity to defend itself on Oct 7 and it failed. What’s happening now is not war. In war two sides oppose each other and there are proportional losses on both sides. In Gaza, mass murder of civilians [leaves bodies strewn in the streets.](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/7/12/israel-war-on-gaza-live-gaza-city-neighbourhoods-see-fiercest-week-of-war?update=3042716) IDF losses are negligible: [![](https://i.imgur.com/wC4Vy2l.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/wC4Vy2l.jpg) (my chart based on IDF web page) At IDF losses less than one per day it’s obvious that most of those murdered in Gaza City were not shooting back. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4237 "2024-07-12T13:25:45Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Elimination of Hamas is just a red herring, the real goal is reoccupation of Gaza and eventual [colonization](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/4/what-does-israels-want-gaza). The real goal of the extremists, perhaps. But Israel is not a monolith, and we should elevate and defend the Israeli voices (and the Gazan and Palestinian voices) who want peace and human rights for all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=204) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=206)