# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 206
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4238 "2024-07-12T13:28:12Z")
Good point. I don’t see this as the action of Israel but rather the IDF. Unfortunately the current public face of Israel is the war on Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2024, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4239 "2024-07-13T20:30:44Z")
> **[How Hamas' guerrilla tactics deepen Gaza's despair](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/h1k6mfld0)** > > Operatives carrying out attacks in plainclothes and booby-trapped residential homes: New York Times report sheds light on how terror group exploits civilians and civilian infrastructure in violation of international law _The report, based on an analysis of Hamas battle videos and interviews with Hamas fighters and IDF soldiers, depicts a systematic exploitation of civilians and civilian infrastructure for military purposes, effectively blaming Hamas for the ongoing war, destruction, deaths and displacement in the region._ I have made this point over and over- Hamas does not give a crap about the people of Gaza- except maybe as a way to leach money off them. Hamas doesnt want a ceasefire- this is screamingly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2024, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4240 "2024-07-15T12:51:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Hamas does not give a crap about the people of Gaza And Israel does not give a crap about the people of Gaza. Really sucks for the people of Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2024, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4241 "2024-07-31T03:24:24Z")
> [@P91noX](#): > > Not that they shouldn’t, but what would change on the ground if Haniyeh and co were eliminated while leaving Sinwar et al in place? Looks as if you’re going to get an answer to this question: [https://apnews.com/article/iran-hamas-israel-30968a7acb31cd8b259de9650014b779](https://apnews.com/article/iran-hamas-israel-30968a7acb31cd8b259de9650014b779) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2024, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4242 "2024-07-31T03:39:53Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > Hamas does not give a crap about the people of Gaza > > And Israel does not give a crap about the people of Gaza. Really sucks for the people of Gaza. Yup. I think those two statements explain a lot about what’s happened to those people recently. Sucks to be the target of both sides in a war. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2024, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4243 "2024-07-31T03:45:54Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yup. I think those two statements explain a lot about what’s happened to those people recently. Sucks to be the target of both sides in a war. I cant argue with that. But Israel is not solely to blame- _they agreed to the UN ceasefire, while Hamas rejected it_- and spray painting swastikas on American walls is not doing anyone any favors. Mind you- Netanyahu is a crook, and partially to blame about how deadly this has gotten. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2024, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4244 "2024-07-31T06:29:37Z")
See, why didn’t Israel do things like _that_ (assuming it was Israel, which seems a safe bet) from the beginning, rather than first trying to genocide their way to eliminating Hamas? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2024, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4245 "2024-07-31T07:04:12Z")
Was Haniyeh in hostile territory prior to today? I thought he lived in Qatar. I’ve read Mossad has more trouble operating in Qatar and Turkey than the likes of Iran and Lebanon. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2024, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4246 "2024-07-31T07:44:10Z")
ISTM that if Israel carried out an operation in Qatar, America would see it coming, and Qatar would surmise that America tacitly allowed it, which would greatly complicate things in the region. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2024, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4247 "2024-07-31T09:06:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But Israel is not solely to blame- _they agreed to the UN ceasefire,_ …I no longer believe this to be the case. I know you cited a single sentence that claimed that they did. But nobody actually went on the record, Netanyahu never backed it, I don’t believe it was ever seriously an option. > [@DrDeth](#): > > and spray painting swastikas on American walls is not doing anyone any favors. Meanwhile: > [@](#): > > The new indictment alleges that the unnamed soldier, assigned to escort handcuffed and blindfolded Palestinians, used a baton and his assault rifle to attack prisoners on multiple occasions. > > He did this even though their restraints meant they posed no threat, and he made videos of the violence. “The accused used severe violence against the detainees he was entrusted with guarding,” the IDF spokesperson said. > > The other soldiers detained on Monday are accused of raping and attacking a Palestinian prisoner at the Sde Teiman detention centre so violently that he was taken to hospital in critical condition, Israeli media reported. > > His injuries included a ruptured intestine, severe injury to the anus and lungs, and broken ribs, the Israel daily Haaretz reported. A doctor who treated the man told the paper that when he saw the horrific extent of the injuries, he initially assumed they were caused by other inmates. > **[IDF charges reservist with aggravated abuse of Palestinian prisoners](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/30/idf-charges-reservist-with-aggravated-abuse-of-palestinian-prisoners)** > > Indictment comes as nine other soldiers appear in Israeli military court over allegations of sexual abuse of detainee Yes, spray painting swastikas on American walls is bad. But one would think the wide-spread credible allegations of rape and torture, [Polio](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/polio-cases-very-likely-gaza-population-who-says-2024-07-30/), [hepatitis](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gazas-displaced-people-face-new-peril-hepatitis-outbreak#:~:text=According%20to%20data%20from%20UNRWA's,reported%20since%20the%20war%20started.), the state of the [hospitals](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-nasser-hospital-must-be-protected-health-facilities-cope-deadly-july), [food insecurity](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-humanitarian-snapshot-2-13-29-july-2024), would _also_ not be doing any favours. One of these things was done by a handful of anti-Semitic idiots. The other is being done by state-actors who are being funded in part by the United States government. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2024, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4248 "2024-07-31T09:26:15Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Was Haniyeh in hostile territory prior to today? When has that ever stopped Mossad? They operate in “friendly” countries too, including the UAE. Why would Qatar be any different? Surely the act of harbouring Hamas renders a place “hostile territory” to them, anyway? > [@Max\_S](#): > > I’ve read Mossad has more trouble operating in Qatar and Turkey than the likes of Iran and Lebanon. Well, we wouldn’t want Israel to go to any more _trouble_ than it has to. I guess white phosphorous on refugee camps it has to be, then. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2024, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4249 "2024-07-31T16:42:25Z")
Geopolitical and logistical concerns probably stop Mossad from carrying out all sorts of “targeted killings” in countries like the UAE or Qatar. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2024, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4250 "2024-07-31T17:00:01Z")
I.e., nobody cares about Palestinians, but you can’t go to a real country and start murdering people, or assassinate their citizens; there could be actual consequences. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2024, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4251 "2024-07-31T18:20:13Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Geopolitical and logistical concerns probably stop Mossad from carrying out all sorts of “targeted killings” in countries like the UAE or Qatar. Doesn’t always stop them… > **[Mahmoud al-Mabhouh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_al-Mabhouh)** > > Mahmoud Abdel Rauf al-Mabhouh (Arabic: محمود عبد الرؤوف المبحوح‎; 14 February 1960 – 19 January 2010) was the chief of logistics and weapons procurement for Hamas's military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. He is remembered for his assassination in Dubai (widely seen as an operation by Mossad, the Israeli foreign intelligence agency) and the diplomatic crisis his assassination triggered after Mossad agents allegedly used forged foreign passports to carry out the killing. > As Hamas's lo... That’s, of course, leaving aside Mossad doing things like killing innocent waiters in Norway using fake Canadian passports… ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2024, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4252 "2024-07-31T18:24:28Z")
Right, and of course the multiple assassinations in Europe following the Munich Olympics. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2024, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4253 "2024-07-31T19:08:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I no longer believe this to be the case. > **[U.N. Security Council passes Gaza cease-fire proposal drafted by the U.S.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us-calls-un-security-council-vote-cease-fire-proposal-gaza-rcna156373)** > > China made no move to block the deal and Russia abstained, allowing the proposal to pass. _“Israel has accepted this proposal and the Security Council has an opportunity to speak with one voice and call on Hamas to do the same,”_ Mind you, that was the June UN proposal which Hamas more or less ignored. I dont know about the newest one. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The new indictment Note that it is the IDF that is doing the indictment. There have always been roguer soldiers- criminals- even the USA has had a few. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2024, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4254 "2024-07-31T23:14:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Mind you, that was the June UN proposal which Hamas more or less ignored. …yes, this is what I was talking about. Neither this or the statement released by the UN included anyone from Israel going on the record. In fact, Netanyahu at the time was saying the complete opposite. And it isn’t correct that “Hamas more or less ignored” this. They pretty much said yes, but argued that some things were taken off the table that they wanted back on. It was a ceasefire negotiation. And they were _negotiating_. That’s how it’s supposed to work. If one party says “this is the only option on the table” that _isn’t_ a negotiation. Just a reminder that back in June, Israel had targeted and killed the Chief Negotiators grandchildren. They had targeted and killed the Chief Negotiators children. And now…they’ve killed the Chief Negotiator. I don’t think you can argue that Israel is approaching the ceasefire negotiations in good faith when they are literally assassinating not only the people they are negotiating with…but also their _families_. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Note that it is the IDF that is doing the indictment. Note that the only reason they indicted in _this_ case was because the evidence was so freaking overwhelming _and_ public. And it resulted in riots. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-herzog-appeal-for-calm-after-mob-storms-idf-base-with-far-right-mks/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-herzog-appeal-for-calm-after-mob-storms-idf-base-with-far-right-mks/) > [@DrDeth](#): > > There have always been roguer soldiers- criminals- even the USA has had a few. Humanitarian agencies have been reporting allegations of routine harassment, abuse, humiliation, torture and sexual assault going back decades. Every Palestinian has a story. This isn’t a story about “rogue soldiers.” > **[Pattern of discriminatory Israeli police violations against Palestinians](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2021/06/israeli-police-targeted-palestinians-with-discriminatory-arrests-torture-and-unlawful-force/)** > > Police targeted Palestinians with mass arrests, used unlawful force against peaceful protesters, and subjected detainees to torture > **[Weishut\_-\_Sexual\_Torture\_of\_Palestinian\_M\_by\_Israeli\_Authorities.pdf](https://web.archive.org/web/20240221185551/https://genderandsecurity.org/sites/default/files/Weishut_-_Sexual_Torture_of_Palestinian_M_by_Israeli_Authorities.pdf)** > **[Claims of Israeli sexual assault of Palestinian women are credible, UN panel...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-israeli-sexual-assault-of-palestinian-women-are-credible-un-panel-says)** > > Experts report evidence of rape, sexual humiliation and threats of rape against girls and women > **[‘More horrific than Abu Ghraib’: Lawyer recounts visit to Israeli detention...](https://www.972mag.com/sde-teiman-prisoners-lawyer-mahajneh/?utm_source=972%2BMagazine%2BNewsletter)** > > At Sde Teiman, Khaled Mahajneh found a detained journalist unrecognizable as he described the facility’s violent and inhumane conditions. > **[Released Palestinians allege abuse in Israeli jails](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67581915)** > > Palestinians tell the BBC they were beaten and had dogs set on them while in Israeli detention. > **[Israel: 50 Years of Occupation Abuses](https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses)** > > Fifty years after Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip, it controls these areas through repression, institutionalized discrimination, and systematic abuses of the Palestinian population’s rights. Whether it’s a child imprisoned by a... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4255 "2024-08-01T01:48:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Neither this or the statement released by the UN included anyone from Israel going on the record. Israel UN rep okayed it. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They pretty much said yes, but argued that some things were taken off the table that they wanted back on. Which is not saying “yes- please stop killing our people.” ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4256 "2024-08-01T02:09:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Israel UN rep okayed it. …name them and cite for them on the record, please. And Netanyahu was _still_ saying the opposite at the time. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Which is not saying “yes- please stop killing our people.” The agreement essentially was, “we will stop killing you today, but we reserve the right to start killing you again once our hostages are safe, whenever we feel like it”. It wasn’t an agreement to “stop killing Palestinians.” Hamas wanted a proper ceasefire, not a temporary, arbitrary pause. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4257 "2024-08-01T02:14:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > name them and cite for them on the record, please. I have cited this twice, stop moving the goalposts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=205) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=207)