# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 210
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4318 "2025-05-09T17:37:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Was there a decade with no Palestinian acts of terrorism vs Israel? Was there a decade with no Israeli acts of terrorism against Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4319 "2025-05-09T17:44:50Z")
I doubt there’s been a single year without some sort of violent act by Palestinians against Israeli civilians, as well as by Israelis against Palestinian civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4320 "2025-05-09T18:13:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Was there a decade with no Palestinian acts of terrorism vs Israel? I don’t think so, any more than (as Crane and iiandyiiii pointed out) there’s been any decade with no Israeli terrorism against Palestinians. (And that caveat about no timeframe with absolutely zero violence is why I was talking about “what the majority of Palestinians do or don’t do”, and “mass violence against Israelis”, etc. [emphasis added].) But you see my point about the fundamental hypocrisy in this kind of framing. Supporters of Palestinian rights are supposed to accept that Palestinians aren’t entitled to any rights or sovereignty in their ancestral homeland unless and until they comply with some arbitrary and unilaterally imposed metric about no Palestinian ever anywhere committing any terrorist violence against Israelis for some arbitrary and unilaterally imposed “probation period”. And that’s bullshit. (It’s also looking more and more like a deliberate choice of impossible goal specifically for the purpose of superficially justifying Israel’s continued denial of Palestinian rights and encroachment onto Palestinian land.) Palestinians as a people are entitled to have rights and sovereignty in their ancestral land, even if some subset of Palestinians engage in terrorist violence. Similarly, there have always been some subset of Israelis engaging in terrorist violence, but Israelis don’t allow (and nor should they) their own fundamental claims to rights and sovereignty to be made contingent on entirely eliminating terrorism among themselves. Palestinians are fundamentally entitled to rights and sovereignty because they are people in the land where their ancestors have been living for generations and centuries, not because they meet some arbitrary standard of good behavior unilaterally imposed by Israel. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2025, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4321 "2025-05-09T21:08:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > But does it seriously undermine the rational disincentives to engage in anti-Israeli terrorist violence? Yes, I’m afraid it does. > > How does that work without outside supplies of guns and ammo? do you throw rocks from the rubble of your house? Yanno you’re right. If the Israelis built an even more draconian prison to contain all the Palestinians, even the toddlers, there’d be less overt violence by those Palestinian prisoners. Until you considered that everything about that prison _is_ violence. More violence today and tomorrow in the interest of avenging yesterday’s structural and overt violence is _not_ the way forward. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2025, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4322 "2025-05-10T01:58:33Z")
Unfortunately there are 3 players involved: Israelis Gazans Hamas There’s only room for 2 of them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2025, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4323 "2025-05-12T13:00:34Z")
Impending famine in Gaza, according to the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification: [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/entire-population-gaza-continues-face-critical-risk-famine-global-hunger-monitor-2025-05-12/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/entire-population-gaza-continues-face-critical-risk-famine-global-hunger-monitor-2025-05-12/) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2025, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4324 "2025-05-16T22:46:49Z")
Trump working on a plan to cleanse Gaza of up to a million Gazans and send them to Libya: > **[Trump administration working on plan to move 1 million Palestinians to Libya](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-administration-working-plan-move-1-million-palestinians-libya-rcna207224)** > > Details are murky and no final agreement has been reached, but the plan is under serious enough consideration that the administration has discussed it with Libyan leadership. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2025, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4325 "2025-05-18T23:33:38Z")
[https://archive.ph/wN2AP](https://archive.ph/wN2AP) Article from Haaretz “What would victory look like?” > Netanyahu and his far-right allies may yearn for a World War II style of total victory, but there would be nothing Churchillian about it. Their vision of flattening and depopulating Gaza, while deflecting all of Netanyahu and his ministers’ responsibility for their failed strategy, is a Stalinist and Putinist one. > It’s up to Israelis who oppose this grim vision to insist on their own version of victory. A majority of them already support it – but, with few exceptions, the leaders of Israel’s opposition are still too scared to say clearly that only a cease-fire can now deliver true victory for Israel. Pretty much sums up my view of the inevitable failure of this war unless Israel’s leadership completely changes. The current path hurts the hostages and hurts Israel’s future. Maybe it helps Hamas and Israeli extremists, since they’ll get to continue fighting for years and more on this path. Thoughts on this article, @Babale? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4326 "2025-05-19T00:18:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Thoughts on this article, @Babale? It’s exactly the same boring slop we’ve heard since the beginning of the conflict. Way back in October of 2023, I made the following posts in the thread about whether Israel can destroy Hamas. None of my thinking on this has changed. What we’ve seen in Gaza is pretty much what I’d expected we would see when the war began. We are reaching the conclusion I predicted - an occupation as Hamas is displaced and a new governing authority is established. And as I said at the time, it has taken a lengthy war and now an occupation. As I said at the time, in other threads - it would have been fantastic if one of those other countries that claims to care so much about the fate of the Palestinians offered to aid with the transition, since an occupation by anyone-but-Israel is more likely to lead to a peaceful solution. But, again as I predicted, none of them actually care enough to touch the situation with a ten foot pole. > [@Will Israel destroy Hamas](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/38): > > > [@Will Israel destroy Hamas](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/37): > > > > Is there a way to destroy Hamas without that? If not are there then ways to effectively diminish Hamas with good specificity? > > It will require Israel to re-occupy Gaza, which will lead to a bunch of casualties and a regular trickle of casualties afterwards. > > There isn’t really another alternative. > [@Will Israel destroy Hamas](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/41): > > > [@Will Israel destroy Hamas](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/40): > > > > Not a great outcome. > > I think the idea of a “great outcome” to this situation sailed out the door when Hamas butchered what may yet turn out to be a thousand civilians. It’s _already_ an unfathomable tragedy. Israel’s top priority now must be to ensure that Hamas is never capable of such an act ever again. > [@Will Israel destroy Hamas](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/42): > > > [@Will Israel destroy Hamas](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/39): > > > > The difference here is the Gaza Strip is not Afghanistan or Vietnam. It’s a tiny 10x50km pocket of land, surrounded on three sides by Israel (or Israeli controlled sea) and the Israeli army is large. They would be quite capable (at a significant cost on both sides, but most of all the civilian population of Gaza) of making sure there isn’t anywhere in the Gaza Strip that does not have Israeli troops. In those circumstances I’m not sure wiping out Hamas would be impossible (not that it would make anyone more secure) > > Correct. The reason that Hamas hasn’t previously been destroyed is that Israel did not have the stomach for the sort of lengthy occupation required. Hamas just made an occupation the lesser evil. > [@Will Israel destroy Hamas](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/59): > > This is the approach that Israel has had since withdrawing from Gaza in 2005, aside from occassional forays back in (but no last occupation). Unfortunately destroying Hamas’ buildings has done little to stop them (and, since Hamas operates out of civilian buildings, it has also not minimized casualties). That plus isolation has been Israel’s strategy thus far, but clearly that has not shaken Hamas’ hold on Gaza. > > What will need to happen now is that Hamas’ capability to control Gaza needs to be removed, and that will require an occupation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4327 "2025-05-19T00:45:13Z")
So you truly think this Israeli government could preside over a successful end to the war? IMO what you describe sounds like a total fantasy - just a complete pipe dream at odds with what’s actually been happening. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4328 "2025-05-19T00:51:02Z")
The slightly greater context of my quote: > [@Will Israel destroy Hamas](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-israel-destroy-hamas/991277/37): > > And destroying Hamas at the cost of killing hundreds to thousands of non-Hamas is not only … ethically problematic … it is counterproductive over any medium term as it creates the circumstance in which another revenge focused group emerges. > > Is there a way to destroy Hamas without that? If not are there then ways to effectively diminish Hamas with good specificity? A “bunch of casualties” hasn’t quite reached the hundreds of thousands yet, not even adding in the multiple tens of thousands attributed to starvation … but it is in the ballpark. And so far Hamas not destroyed. I think getting in that range is still likely given current policies, mostly by induced malnutrition and disease. And it is not established yet that reoccupation will eliminate Hamas either, or at least not without creating another resistance that has the same ends and methods, the same need for revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4329 "2025-05-19T01:10:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you truly think this Israeli government could preside over a successful end to the war? I think _this_ Israeli government hasn’t yet presented a real plan for what it will do once it has occupied Gaza, but regardless of that occupation is the necessary next step for any possible plan. I think that the plan for Gaza will be determined at the ballot box, and that this election will come much sooner than Netanyahu would like. Only one Israeli prime minister has ever served a full term since the nation’s founding, and I highly doubt that Netanyahu is about to become the second after this disastrous term. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > IMO what you describe sounds like a total fantasy - just a complete pipe dream at odds with what’s actually been happening. Yes, I know that’s your opinion. I disagree. We established that a while ago; I’m not sure what has occurred that you think would change my mind on that, since the things that have played out since are pretty much exactly what I suggested they might be when this all began. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4330 "2025-05-19T01:12:29Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I think _this_ Israeli government hasn’t yet presented a real plan for what it will do once it has occupied Gaza, Well, it has to be better than any Hamas “plan”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4331 "2025-05-19T01:24:16Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > And it is not established yet that reoccupation will eliminate Hamas either, or at least not without creating another resistance that has the same ends and methods, the same need for revenge. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. None of this is about _revenge_. It is about people who believe that if they continue with their current course of action, they will secure the entire land. That applies to both extremist Kahanists on the Israeli side as well as Hamas and similar groups on the Palestinian side. Peace doesn’t come through love and harmony. It comes from both sides realizing the brutal truth: that violence cannot accomplish their goals. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4332 "2025-05-19T01:47:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. None of this is about _revenge_. You really are going to argue that none of the support for violence against Israel and Israelis has been, is, and will continue to be, motivated by revenge? You really think that Israeli forces will raze cities, kill tens of thousands directly and many more by induced disease and famine, and create a population contentedly occupied as a result? That such is not creating new generations of people who desire revenge? I personally doubt Hamas leadership believes or believed that they would achieve any stated goals. They are thugs who want power in their fiefdoms and nothing like a ten minute hate to keep your people together. Give them less to have power over and they hang on to it even more. I won’t broach hate, revenge, and dehumanization from elements on the Israeli side, as it is not the point I was making. But occupation is going to eliminate the desire for revenge and support to those who pursue it? I uh doubt it. Lastly this is a very strange claim: > [@Babale](#): > > It comes from both sides realizing the brutal truth: that violence cannot accomplish their goals From someone who has been advocating horrific violence as the means to accomplish goals, and supports ramping it up more since the violence so far hasn’t worked. I know we have a bigger hammer here somewhere…. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4333 "2025-05-19T02:01:18Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > You really are going to argue that none of the support for violence against Israel and Israelis has been, is, and will continue to be, motivated by revenge? That’s absolutely not the primary motivation, no. The primary motivation, as any Palestinian militant you ask will happily tell you, is to drive the Jews into the sea so that Palestine can be free from the river to the sea. > [@DSeid](#): > > I personally doubt Hamas leadership believes or believed that they would achieve any stated goals. They are thugs who want power in their fiefdoms and nothing like a ten minute hate to keep your people together. Give them less to have power over and they hang on to it even more. I think their actions and words have been pretty consistent with each other. I’ll see if I can find it later, but in 2023 I read an article by a guy who fled Gaza before the war, because Hamas reached out to him and asked him if he’d be open to administrating Haifa after they reconquer it. He realized they were about to do something insanely stupid, and fled. So I don’t buy the idea that they don’t mean exactly what they say about conquering Israel. > [@DSeid](#): > > Lastly this is a very strange claim: > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > It comes from both sides realizing the brutal truth: that violence cannot accomplish their goals > > From someone who has been advocating horrific violence as the means to accomplish goals, and supports ramping it up more since the violence so far hasn’t worked. I know we have a bigger hammer here somewhere…. it sure is strange, if you purposefully ignore the entire context: > [@Babale](#): > > . It is about people who believe that if they continue with their current course of action, they will secure the entire land. That applies to both extremist Kahanists on the Israeli side as well as Hamas and similar groups on the Palestinian side. “The goal” in question is specifically conquering the entire land. _My_ goal is to make Palestinians understand that they will never successfully drive us out or kill us all, so they need to learn to live with us in peace. My goal is _not_ to see Israel stretch “from the river to the sea”. Which would, indeed, be impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4334 "2025-05-19T02:03:14Z")
Also, this is silly: > [@DSeid](#): > > From someone who has been advocating horrific violence as the means to accomplish goals, and supports ramping it up more since the violence so far hasn’t worked. The violence has worked very well; Hamas’ capacity to wage war is pretty much destroyed. Now they need to be occupied until another government can replace them so they don’t come back. That’s not “ramping up the violence”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4335 "2025-05-19T09:36:03Z")
This seems like such incredibly short term thinking. Maybe (maybe!) the present day ability of Hamas to wage war has been destroyed. But the future Hamas, or their successor, will have tens or hundreds of thousands or more eager recruits willing to die for the cause of avenging their civilian relatives who were killed by Israeli forces in this war. Present Hamas has been weakened while future Hamas has been hugely strengthened. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4336 "2025-05-19T10:56:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But the future Hamas, or their successor, will have tens or hundreds of thousands or more eager recruits willing to die for the cause of avenging their civilian relatives who were killed by Israeli forces in this war. So long as you keep insisting that this is what motivates the majority of the fighting, you will continue to _deeply_ misread the conflict as a result. What would get Hamas, or a subsequent organization, hordes and hordes of recruits is if they’re able to spin this as “one step closer to eventual liberation”, as a success. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Present Hamas has been weakened while future Hamas has been hugely strengthened. Future Hamas isn’t strengthened by “revenge”. It’s strengthened by the appearance of success. For example - if Israel leaves Gaza without occupying it, and Hamas claims victory. _That_ would win them many, many thousands of recruits. Making Hamas look like utter losers who accomplished nothing but ruin, on the other hand, is more and more effective: > **[Hamas' iron grip on Gaza is slowly slipping as residents protest](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c175z14r8pro)** > > Gazan civilians are losing their fear of Hamas, openly criticising the group on the streets and online. The protests against Hamas have nothing to do with _revenge_. They are happening because more and more people are figuring out that _Hamas’ path does not lead to a free Palestine_. This is how the war ends: > [@](#): > > In a series of voice notes, an eyewitness – who asked not to be named – described several recent incidents in which local residents prevented Hamas fighters from carrying out military actions from inside their community. > > On 13 April, he said, Hamas gunmen tried to force their way into the house of an elderly man, Jamal al-Maznan. > > “They wanted to launch rockets and pipes [a derogatory term used for some of Hamas’ home-made projectiles] from inside his house,” the eyewitness told us. > > “But he refused.” > > The incident soon escalated, with relatives and neighbours all coming to al-Maznan’s defence. The gunmen opened fire, injuring several people, but eventually were driven out. > > “They were not intimidated by the bullets,” the eyewitness said of the protesters. > > “They advanced and told [the gunmen] to take their things and flee. We don’t want you in this place. We don’t want your weapons that have brought us destruction, devastation and death.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4337 "2025-05-19T11:12:40Z")
Hamas never had the ability to wage war. They had the ability to be a terror group. Israel has degraded that. For now. Which returns to that old post of mine you quoted: was there any way to degrade them without massive loss of life? Because the goal of eliminating Hamas or a future group also trying to exert terror on Israel and Israelis has failed to be achieved. It has involved horrific violence. And it has not achieved the goal. “Occupying” Gaza is something that you now suggest won’t involve killing more people and continuing to cause starvation and disease? Of course it would. And the goal of preventing future terror attacks will be no closer as a result. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=209) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=211)