# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 212
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4358 "2025-05-19T13:39:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In 2003, the US had about a ten to one ratio of population compared to Iraq. Iraq also had the fourth largest army in the world; Hamas does not. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There are plenty of other differences, but many are similarly in favor of suggesting it will be _more_ difficult, not less, for Israel to have a successful long term outcome of occupying Gaza than the US and Iraq. I really don’t think that’s true. Again, Gaza is a narrow strip of land. Iraq is a huge country with incredibly rough terrain in places. Iraq is half a world away, and aside from spreading an ideology that Americans only halfheartedly believe in anyways, they had motivation for going to Iraq. I can’t really think of _anything_ that would make Iraq _easier_ to occupy than Gaza. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your certainty that this is possible, achievable, and even likely appears _absolutely ludicrous to me_ based on what the Israeli government has said and done I think you’ve got a very skewed idea of what the Israeli government says and does. I don’t think it’s your fault; the reporting on this conflict has been _atrocious_. See: the supposed 500 people who died when a PIJ rocket hit a parking lot. Or the claims that vehicles were “buried”. In early 2024, I came across a description of _exactly_ how I was feeling, from author Michael Crichton. What’s funny is, he used Palestine as an example of an issue _he knew nothing about_, while for me, it’s exactly the other way around: > [@](#): > > Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them. > > In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How on Earth are you so confident? Well, one reason I am confident that it is not in fact “physically impossible” for Israel to hold Gaza is that Israel _did in fact_ occupy Gaza from 1967 until 2005. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4359 "2025-05-19T13:40:07Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > What has Israel offered the Palestinians that would incentivize them to co-operate? Their own state. _Multiple_ times. They rejected the offer, because a Palestinian state is not good enough if the Jews have a state next door. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4360 "2025-05-19T13:41:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Well, one reason I am confident that it is not in fact “physically impossible” for Israel to hold Gaza is that Israel _did in fact_ occupy Gaza from 1967 until 2005. How did that go? And why did end? And why would this time be any different? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4361 "2025-05-19T13:43:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How did that go? Pretty well! > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And why did end? Sharon thought that the Palestinians were ready to build their own state instead of fighting us for ours. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And why would this time be any different? This time we shouldn’t withdraw until Gaza is under the firm control of an administration that isn’t terroristic itself, nor that pays terrorists out with a “Pay for Slay” scheme. And also, if we leave and a group like Hamas takes over two years later, we will hopefully have the foresight to go back in immediately, not to wait two decades for Hamas’ potential successor to fester. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4362 "2025-05-19T13:45:50Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > I was referring to the land not the population. Control of the population is under discussion. Me too. The land is under the control of Hamas in Gaza (well, except the parts Israel has already occupied) and the joint control of the PA and Israel in the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4363 "2025-05-19T13:47:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Or the claims that vehicles were “buried”. I’ll note that this presumes complete acceptance of the accuracy of the IDF report, and the inaccuracy of independent reporting, neither of which I’m inclined to just accept. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4364 "2025-05-19T13:48:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This time we shouldn’t withdraw until Gaza is under the firm control of an administration that isn’t terroristic itself, nor that pays terrorists out with a “Pay for Slay” scheme. And also, if we leave and a group like Hamas takes over two years later, we will hopefully have the foresight to go back in immediately, not to wait two decades for Hamas’ potential successor to fester. Well then I just look forward to seeing the “Mission Accomplished” banner. I don’t remotely share your confidence (and in fact I think you’re delusional), but I hope you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4365 "2025-05-19T13:48:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > and the inaccuracy of independent reporting, Say what? By “independent reporting” do you mean “reporters saying what Hamas officials told them”? Because I didn’t see any “independent reporting” other than reporters saying what other people said. And a journalist quoting a Hamas aligned doctor is no more “independent” than a journalist quoting the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4366 "2025-05-19T13:49:05Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Their own state. _Multiple_ times. Again, let’s be serious. The immediate issues are access to resources and trade. Israel has no long term plan for a Gazan economy. I’m sure there are fine minds at Israeli universities that could propose viable plans to solve these problems. The US did it in Japan and Germany against forces much greater than Hamas. You told me some time ago that there are interests on both sides that prevent this. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4367 "2025-05-19T13:49:18Z")
If only truly independent journalists could actually safely travel that area and report. AFAICT the IDF has been less than welcoming to independent reporters. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4368 "2025-05-19T13:50:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If only truly independent journalists could actually safely travel that area and report Yet another reason why Hamas’ habit of hiding behind civilians is so terrible. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4369 "2025-05-19T13:51:23Z")
Yep. And also the IDF has done [lots of bad things](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_journalists_in_the_Gaza_war). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4370 "2025-05-19T13:52:19Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Their own state. _Multiple_ times. > > Again, let’s be serious. I agree - let’s be serious. There’s only one side in this conflict that has ever agreed to a two state solution. The other side either rejects it outright, or demands a “right of return” poison pill. Until both sides accept a real two state solution, war will continue in the region. And one side has shown, over and over, a clear willingness to do so; the other has not. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4371 "2025-05-19T14:16:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > There’s only one side in this conflict that has ever agreed to a two state solution. That’s too big a leap. It’s not even relevant to the current situation. Israel is not offering anything meaningful. Israel, with the UN, could establish a Gazan Constituent Government funded by such cash flow that still exists. This provides an entity that Gazans can support and from which they can benefit. If Israel were to deal with the Constituent Government as an equal it would lead to positive steps being taken. Of course I do not know the actual form this would take, but recovery has to be something along these lines. Unfortunately it looks like the Israeli goal is still colonization. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4372 "2025-05-19T14:23:27Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > That’s too big a leap. It’s not even relevant to the current situation. Israel is not offering anything meaningful. > > Israel, with the UN, could establish a Gazan Constituent Government funded by such cash flow that still exists. This provides an entity that Gazans can support and from which they can benefit. If Israel were to deal with the Constituent Government as an equal it would lead to positive steps being taken. What do you think those two state proposals involved? Israel dipping out and a new state immediately being established? Nahh, they all had terms with provisional governments that are basically what you describe. The Palestinians have rejected these offers (or at least, their leaders have; they never actually asked the people or anything). They’d rather keep fighting for the whole thing, river to the sea. Maybe after this war, they’ll change their mind. I don’t know how permanent peace is possible until they do, and put into powers leaders who pursue that goal. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4373 "2025-05-19T14:32:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The Palestinians have rejected these offers (or at least, their leaders have; Palestinian leaders in control of funds. Today, Israel and Egypt control all funds flowing into Gaza, so they are currently the Gaza Provisional Government. It is within their power to form a functioning Constituent Government that Gazans would support. Peace is possible when it benefits the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4374 "2025-05-19T15:25:42Z")
Oh yeah, a Palestinian State would be an independent economic and political entity, not a reservation cobbled together from scraps left over after confiscation of primary land and other resources. Israel has never offered a viable statehood solution. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4375 "2025-05-19T20:22:29Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Today, Israel and Egypt control all funds flowing into Gaza, so they are currently the Gaza Provisional Government. Not even close. Smuggling occurs daily. Not to mention Hamas routinely puts the arm on the Gazans, doing stuff like stealing aid food and selling it to their own people. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2025, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4376 "2025-05-19T20:59:57Z")
I miss your point. Egypt and Israel do control the cash flow for public services in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4377 "2025-05-20T00:25:58Z")
To truly be an independent state wouldn’t Palestine need to be able to fund itself by leveraging its economy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=211) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=213)