# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 213
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4378 "2025-05-20T00:49:48Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It led to us sitting on our hands while Russia stepped into Syria (a fuckup that was only resolved by the luck, with Russia and Hezbollah getting fucked up at the same time - and which, it seems, will ultimately end with yet another Jihadi fanatic ruling Syria, but we all ignore that because he wears a suit). It led to the idiocy of our response to Russian aggression in Ukraine, both under Obama when Crimea happened and now under Trump. And it has led to this ridiculous “violence can’t solve anything” attitude towards the Gaza war. Think about the Syrian Civil War from the other side. You had Syria, backed by formidable allies in Russia and Iran (primarily through Hezbollah) who spent over a decade using every method you could think of to wipe out the Sunni Arab rebels, including terrorism, gassing, carpet bombing, you name it. This formidable alliance wasn’t the thing that actually fell to the rebels - the recent events were a sign of how weak Syria itself was without its powerful friends. But up until the point Israel decimated Hezbollah they were never able to completely defeat the rebels. The rebels were still there, not because a western superpower was arming them to the teeth, but because they’ve always had support from Al Qaeda who had enough resources and knew the playbook to fighting an asymmetric war and avoiding ever being stamped out entirely. (It’s also related to why western media is excited by Jolani as he’s realistically the most pragmatic leader you could hope for out of that situation). > [@Babale](#): > > You’ll note that after being helped with ISIS and being given some more time to work out the kinks, Iraq now has a functional government, no further occupation required. Thanks to Iran-backed militants primarily. Fortunately in spite of general cynicism about the relatively moderate parties that have typically made up Iraq’s government, the extremists keep tripping over their own dicks when it comes to electoral politics. And for whatever reason Iran now seems to have fallen out with the Shia extremists in Iraq and prefers the stable options. And by the way ISIS still exists in Iraq as an underground insurgency and terrorist group. They no longer actually control territory, but they aren’t gone. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4379 "2025-05-20T03:20:31Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > I miss your point. Egypt and Israel do control the cash flow for public services in Gaza. > [@Crane](#): > > Today, Israel and Egypt control all funds flowing into Gaza, See the difference? “all funds” vs “cash flow for public services”. > [@Crane](#): > > It is within their power to form a functioning Constituent Government that Gazans would support. > > Peace is possible when it benefits the Palestinians. But I agree here. Mostly. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4380 "2025-05-20T17:06:14Z")
> **[First Thing: UN says 14,000 babies could die in Gaza in next 48 hours under...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/may/20/first-thing-un-says-14000-babies-could-die-in-gaza-in-next-48-hours-under-israeli-aid-blockade)** > > UK, France and Canada warn Israel of action if ‘egregious’ conduct in Gaza continues. Plus, Trump and Putin discuss Ukraine UN says 14,000 babies at risk of imminent starvation death due to lack of aid. Is this accurate? If babies are dying, or about to die, from starvation, would we know, and how would we find out? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4381 "2025-05-20T17:14:47Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s what I expect the upcoming elections to be all about, yes. > > The current government is a coalition of groups with _very different_ opinions on what should be done next. So if they want to remain in power, they can’t really address that point yet. > > There is not a big push to remove the current government because _the opposition groups largely agree_ that an occupation is the next necessary step. Bringing this back because I think this is central to the disagreement. It appears you trust that it’s all but certain, or at least very likely, that the next government will both have and present a long term plan for occupation and rebuilding Gaza (and no ethnic cleansing), that this will be accepted by the public (by voting them in), and that the public will maintain the political will to keep it going for at long at it takes. Is this accurate (as to your opinions)? All of those seem less than likely to me, and all of them together seems profoundly unlikely to me. And that’s a huge part of why, IMO, continuing this war is so immoral - even if we presume that Gaza could be rebuilt and “reformed” to be a good neighbor with a long term Israeli lead occupation, the political will necessary can’t come close to being guaranteed, and in fact is likely to be very costly (in lives and money) and thus at great risk of political collapse in the future. Without that, this war is just vengeance and carnage, killing civilians and setting the stage for years or even decades of reprisals. And thus IMO it’s entirely morally unacceptable to engage in this level of carnage without near-certainty (factual, not aspirational, certainty) or in the political will, long term, to carry it through to a positive conclusion. If this sounds like a sky-high bar to clear, then YES! There absolutely should be a sky-high bar to clear before engaging in war that kills tens of thousands of civilians! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4382 "2025-05-20T17:31:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Bringing this back because I think this is central to the disagreement. It appears you trust that it’s all but certain, or at least very likely, that the next government will both have and present a long term plan for occupation and rebuilding Gaza (and no ethnic cleansing), that this will be accepted by the public (by voting them in), and that the public will maintain the political will to keep it going for at long at it takes. > > Is this accurate (as to your opinions)? That’s the biggest issue facing the Israeli electorate, so it will be the biggest issue in the upcoming elections, yes. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > All of those seem less than likely to me, and all of them together seems profoundly unlikely to me. What other choice does Israel have? I get the Iraq trauma, but unlike America, we can’t fuck off across the ocean halfway through. Not every war is Iraq or Afghanistan. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If babies are dying, or about to die, from starvation, would we know, and how would we find out? Seriously? I genuinely want to know the thought process that leads to asking a question like that. Yes, of course you would know if babies were starving, especially thousands of babies. You’d “find out” the same way you find out whenever a journalist or a doctor is caught in crossfire or as collateral damage: you’ll hear about it on the news nonstop for weeks. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4383 "2025-05-20T17:39:40Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What other choice does Israel have? I get the Iraq trauma, but unlike America, we can’t fuck off across the ocean halfway through. Not every war is Iraq or Afghanistan. Israel shouldn’t have rushed in, guns blazing. They should have taken time to mourn and engaged the international community in a long-term, internationally supported, dismantling of Hamas (whose power and funding structure is largely outside of Gaza), reformation of Gaza (and the WB, for that matter), and internal fortification and robust investigation into what went wrong and how to secure Israel, long term. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4384 "2025-05-20T17:51:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Israel shouldn’t have rushed in, guns blazing. They should have taken time to mourn and engaged the international community in a long-term, internationally supported, dismantling of Hamas (whose power and funding structure is largely outside of Gaza), reformation of Gaza (and the WB, for that matter), and internal fortification and robust investigation into what went wrong and how to secure Israel, long term Two points. One, this doesn’t really address anything I said. You’re talking about what Israel should have done to begin with in this post. In the post I was responding to, you were asking why I don’t think Israel will lose interest in stop the occupation early, like America did with Iraq. The answer is that unlike America in iraq, Israel is not half a planet away. It’s right next door. We don’t have anywhere to go. We don’t have a choice but to deal with Gaza. We are not going to be able dip out when we get bored like you guys did in iraq. Two, the idea that Israel “rushed in, guns blazing” is pretty silly. Israel waited a week before beginning ground operations and twenty days before entering Gaza in full. They went slowly and methodically, evacuating civilians whenever possible, despite Hamas’ efforts to prevent this. The idea that this operation has been some kind of monumental failure is laughable. You seem convinced that _if only_ Israel had waited even longer, somehow it would have been possible to fight Hamas without causing this level of devastation. That is… What word did you use earlier? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > in fact I think you’re delusional Yeah, exactly. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4385 "2025-05-20T18:04:48Z")
Israel didn’t do anything I suggested. The government is still trying to absolve itself from any real investigation and blame. A few days, a few weeks, is _nothing_ for something this monumental in scope (and this monumentally harmful to civilians). Israel didn’t make any real effort to engage the international community to dismantle Hamas. It was doomed from the start because of bad leadership. Netanyahu and allies are incapable of decent moral leadership, and a war of this magnitude can’t be run with any sort of decency or morality without good moral leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4386 "2025-05-20T18:08:30Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I think _this_ Israeli government hasn’t yet presented a real plan for what it will do once it has occupied Gaza Not quite true. A couple of prominent ministers in the current Israeli government very much have spoken their plan: the complete and total elimination of any and all Palestinians from Gaza, after which properly Jewish Israeli citizens will occupy and take over that land and redevelop it. I wish to emphasize that this is not ALL Israelis, but a minority. Albeit a minority that currently have access to a lot of power. Smotrich has expressed further plans, such as stripping all but Orthodox Jews of Israeli citizenship and impose “Torah law” the way the Taliban impose Sharia law in their territory. > [@Babale](#): > > I think that the plan for Gaza will be determined at the ballot box, That strikes me as laughable, although I hasten to add I’d be totally OK if I was wrong and you were right about that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4387 "2025-05-20T18:10:19Z")
It’s just mind boggling that anyone honestly believes that _this time_ it’s different, _this time_ the killing of thousands of civilians is necessary as collateral damage on the way to true peace and security. And at the same time I suppose it’s entirely predictable - this is how it’s been done for decades, so why change now? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4388 "2025-05-20T18:15:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > A couple of prominent ministers in the current Israeli government very much have spoken their plan: the complete and total elimination of any and all Palestinians from Gaza, after which properly Jewish Israeli citizens will occupy and take over that land and redevelop it. Describing Smotrich and Ben Gvir, ministers who very likely won’t even _be_ ministers after the next election, as “prominent” reveals a _grave_ misunderstanding of Israeli politics. (Or, when media outlets do it, intentional dishonesty). It’s equivalent to claiming that America’s official stance on wildfires is that they’re caused by Jewish space lasers. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4389 "2025-05-20T18:21:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s just mind boggling that anyone honestly believes that _this time_ it’s different, _this time_ the killing of thousands of civilians is necessary as collateral damage on the way to true peace and security. It’s mind boggling to me that Iraq made y’all fall this deep into the “violence never solves anything” rabbit hole. Holy crap! Violence does, in fact, solve many problems. It’s how the Nazis and Imperial Japanese were defeated - through _overwhelming_ levels of violence, in those two cases - and it’s how Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and others were forced to accept the continued existence of Israel. And violence _did_ in fact end Saddam’s reign over Iraq, so even _that_ is a shitty example. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4390 "2025-05-20T18:27:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I think their actions and words have been pretty consistent with each other. > > I’ll see if I can find it later, but in 2023 I read an article by a guy who fled Gaza before the war, because Hamas reached out to him and asked him if he’d be open to administrating Haifa after they reconquer it. He realized they were about to do something insanely stupid, and fled. > > So I don’t buy the idea that they don’t mean exactly what they say about conquering Israel. Likewise, I absolutely believe someone like Smotrich when they say they want to commit geocide. > [@Babale](#): > > My goal is _not_ to see Israel stretch “from the river to the sea”. Which would, indeed, be impossible. Oh, no - it is absolutely _possible_. How _probable_ that is, is another matter but I have no doubt Israel _could_ completely obliterate anyone and everyone currently in Gaza and take over. The question is whether or not the government is willing/can convince people to make the necessary sacrifices to do so and don’t give a damn how it makes them look internationally and don’t give a damn about the blowback on the 50% of Jews who _don’t_ live in Israel and will in no way benefit from such a campaign, quite the contrary. > [@Babale](#): > > The violence has worked very well; Hamas’ capacity to wage war is pretty much destroyed. Now they need to be occupied until another government can replace them so they don’t come back. You do realize that there are non-zero number of governments who feel that no one should be occupying territory belonging to the Palestinians other than the Palestinians, yes? > [@Babale](#): > > What would get Hamas, or a subsequent organization, hordes and hordes of recruits is if they’re able to spin this as “one step closer to eventual liberation”, as a success. Either that, or telling the potential recruits that if they don’t continue to resist the Israelis will slaughter all of them down to the last man, woman, and child. Which certainly _looks_ like a plausible claim given the civilian toll in Gaza during this slaughter. Also, as @iiandyiiii said: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s just not credible to me that killing so many civilians won’t have massive and unpredictable blowback consequences. > [@Babale](#): > > What have the Gazans offered Israel that would incentivize their peaceful co-existence? Other than rockets, suicide bombings, stabbing attacks, and the largest terrorist attack in Israeli history? From where I sit there are no “good guys” here - just two parties locked into a vicious blood feud where both try to justify their slaughter of innocents and bystanders. One side is at least honest about their desire to genocide the other side (not that that makes evil in any way OK) and the other is arguing that a brutal occupation is somehow going to make their targets peacefully submit to whatever apartheid and oppression they decide to mete out. Would the Israelis peacefully submit to occupation and second class citizenship? No? Then why do you think the Palestinians would do so? > [@Babale](#): > > OK. > > What went wrong in Iraq, do you think? Starting an unnecessary war with outright lies and false pretenses leading to the deaths of over 200,000 civilians, most of whom probably had jack all to do with violence before someone blew them up or shot them. Granted, Saddam was a bad, bad man and I don’t mourn his removal or his passing. Removing him from power wasn’t the mistake, it was the manner in which it was done. You can’t build a good foundation on lies and deceit, and why would the Iraqis trust or want us after they realized those lies and deceit? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4391 "2025-05-20T18:28:26Z")
WWII was not a war of choice. Neither were all the wars in which Israel defended against state actors large enough to threaten their existence. That’s the difference. Israel was attacked, but not even close to existentially. Hamas does not and did not threaten the existence of Israel. There was time to actually evaluate what happened, blame those responsible (including for the security lapses), engage the rest of the world, and come up with a real, long term plan. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4392 "2025-05-20T18:41:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Likewise, I absolutely believe someone like Smotrich when they say they want to commit geocide. Cool. Smotrich is a fucking nobody. He only exists because Netanyahu needed an extra vote for his coalition, and his party is projected to win 0 seats at the next election consistently in every poll since Oct 7. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Oh, no - it is absolutely _possible_. How _probable_ that is, is another matter but I have no doubt Israel _could_ completely obliterate anyone and everyone currently in Gaza and take over. The question is whether or not the government is willing/can convince people to make the necessary sacrifices to do so and don’t give a damn how it makes them look internationally and don’t give a damn about the blowback on the 50% of Jews who _don’t_ live in Israel and will in no way benefit from such a campaign, quite the contrary. No, it really isn’t possible. Even if Israel wanted to do that, they would not be able to accomplish it; and there is very little interest in Israel in spending Israeli lives to annex _Gaza_. > [@Broomstick](#): > > You do realize that there are non-zero number of governments who feel that no one should be occupying territory belonging to the Palestinians other than the Palestinians, yes? Are those governments going to provide Israel with security guarantees where they will stop militant groups within Palestine from attacking Israel? If not, why the fuck should I give a single solitary crap about their opinion? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > WWII was not a war of choice. Neither were all the wars in which Israel defended against state actors large enough to threaten their existence. That’s the difference. Israel was attacked, but not even close to existentially. Hamas does not and did not threaten the existence of Israel. There was time to actually evaluate what happened, blame those responsible (including for the security lapses), engage the rest of the world, and come up with a real, long term plan Yeah, I understand. You think there was another way to fight Hamas. I think that’s delusional. Wait ten years and get every country on the planet on board; you still have to bomb Hamas eventually, and since they’re under civilian infrastructure, civilians will have died. Anyways, we are once again going in circles. I’ve offered my thoughts. They haven’t changed since the war started, because nothing we’ve seen is in any way out of line with what I predicted and said _should_ happen all the way back in October 2023. You don’t have to keep @ing me and then acting shocked when I haven’t changed my mind since the situation hasn’t really changed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4393 "2025-05-20T18:50:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s equivalent to claiming that America’s official stance on wildfires is that they’re caused by Jewish space lasers. Telling me that Smotrich and Gvir are the Israeli equivalent of Marjorie Taylor Green does remarkably little to reassure me of either their relative unimportance, or the political stability of the Israeli society in general. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4394 "2025-05-20T18:59:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Telling me that Smotrich and Gvir are the Israeli equivalent of Marjorie Taylor Green Well, to be fully equivalent, MTG couldn’t be the whackiest but somewhat minor member of the MAGA movement whose leader is the president of the United States - she’d have to be the _only_ MAGA Republican, with the leader of the party being a more moderate Republican who panders to her because she’s a deciding vote. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4395 "2025-05-20T19:05:45Z")
I’m just saying, “You don’t have to worry about those guys any more than you have to worry about that politician from your country who you’re _already massively worried about_,” isn’t making me sleep any better. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4396 "2025-05-20T19:12:29Z")
Your responses have helped me better understand the support for the war within Israel, at least. And that’s what I’m going for, really; I recognize that minds are very unlikely to change here. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4397 "2025-05-20T20:09:20Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What other choice does Israel have? I get the Iraq trauma, but unlike America, we can’t fuck off across the ocean halfway through. Not every war is Iraq or Afghanistan. At the most recent stage of the war, they could’ve made a multiphase ceasefire agreement and then not decided to back out of it at phase 2. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=212) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=214)