# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 214
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4398 "2025-05-20T20:11:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@Crane](#): > > > > You avoid the question. The US murdered Japanese civilians by the hundreds of thousands and then occupied their country. There were still active Japanese factions that would destroy any Americans who touched their sacred soil. But the US offered them a place in the international trade economy without losing their cultural identity. It worked very well. > > > > What incentive exists for the Palestinians to end their attacks on Israel? > > The US started rebuilding Japan before the Japanese government agreed to surrender and Japan was occupied? That’s news to me! No - _even after_ the US napalmed the crap out of Japan, including Tokyo, and then dropped two atomic bombs on them, there were still Japanese wanting and willing to resist. There was an attempted coup to try to prevent the Emperor from announcing surrender. There were actions by resistance groups opposed to the US being in Japan all during the US occupation of Japan. The US conquering, invading, and occupying Japan was NOT met with universal cheers and welcome. Plenty of Japanese were unhappy about the situation and expressed how they felt about it. > [@Babale](#): > > That’s what I expect the upcoming elections to be all about, yes. I’m not entirely convinced that the outcome of the next election will result in anything different than the current situation. Again, I’m OK with being proven wrong on that but I simply do not have your confidence. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > To truly be an independent state wouldn’t Palestine need to be able to fund itself by leveraging its economy? Yes, that seems a reasonable statement. Too bad that over the past couple years the Israeli government has done a fine job of completely destroying Gaza’s economy as collateral damage in its efforts to destroy Hamas. > [@Babale](#): > > Yes, of course you would know if babies were starving, especially thousands of babies. You’d “find out” the same way you find out whenever a journalist or a doctor is caught in crossfire or as collateral damage: you’ll hear about it on the news nonstop I don’t know what news sources you frequent, but for a wide variety of mine I’ve been hearing about starvation in Gaza for _months_. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4399 "2025-05-20T20:26:39Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Cool. Smotrich is a fucking nobody. He only exists because Netanyahu needed an extra vote for his coalition This one detail makes him very much not a nobody. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4400 "2025-05-20T20:32:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Describing Smotrich and Ben Gvir, ministers who very likely won’t even _be_ ministers after the next election, as “prominent” reveals a _grave_ misunderstanding of Israeli politics. (Or, when media outlets do it, intentional dishonesty). Right. And “Trump is never going to be elected president”. I realize that the Israeli election system is different than that of the US, but still, these people were elected by _someone_ in Israel and could be elected again. > [@Babale](#): > > Cool. Smotrich is a fucking nobody. He only exists because Netanyahu needed an extra vote for his coalition, and his party is projected to win 0 seats at the next election consistently in every poll since Oct 7. From your lips to God’s ears on the forecast, I can only hope. Unfortunately, considerable damage has already been done. Also ↓ > [@Miller](#): > > Telling me that Smotrich and Gvir are the Israeli equivalent of Marjorie Taylor Green does remarkably little to reassure me of either their relative unimportance, or the political stability of the Israeli society in general. > [@Miller](#): > > I’m just saying, “You don’t have to worry about those guys any more than you have to worry about that politician from your country who you’re _already massively worried about_,” isn’t making me sleep any better. Although the good news is that as of May 9 MTG says she won’t run again. So we just have to worry about her hijinks for the rest of her current term. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4401 "2025-05-20T21:29:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The US started rebuilding Japan before the Japanese government agreed to surrender and Japan was occupied? That’s news to me! Nonsense - that’s not what I said. The US reconstruction of Japan and Germany stands as a model Israel could use with the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4402 "2025-05-21T03:23:23Z")
So this is what Israeli politicians are saying: > Yair Golan, the leader of the opposition Democrats who served as deputy chief of staff for Israel’s military before entering politics, said that after an unjustifiably brutal campaign, much of the damage had already been done. > > Netanyahu’s government was making the country as isolated as apartheid-era South Africa, he told Reshet Bet radio. > > “A sane country doesn’t engage in fighting against civilians, doesn’t kill babies as a hobby and doesn’t set the expulsion of a population as a goal,” he said. > Yair Golan spoke a truth that is uncomfortable to the Israeli ear,” the liberal newspaper Haaretz [said in an editorial](https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2025-05-21/ty-article-opinion/the-uncomfortable-truth-yair-golan-is-right-about-what-israel-is-becoming/00000196-ef23-dd8e-adff-ffa3bf9c0000). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4403 "2025-05-21T11:56:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m just saying, “You don’t have to worry about those guys any more than you have to worry about that politician from your country who you’re _already massively worried about_,” isn’t making me sleep any better. I had exactly the same reaction to that post. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4404 "2025-05-21T13:55:34Z")
Also, MTG is a backbench Representative, not a member of the Cabinet. Matt Goetz couldn’t get confirmed even by this Senate. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4405 "2025-05-21T13:58:40Z")
I’ve said this before, and I see no reason to change my position: As someone with no skin directly in the game, and who travels (well, used to) to Israel on a regular basis, neither Israel nor the Palestinians have the will to do what would be needed to get to peace. Every outrage justifies the next, and it’s difficult to get emotionally invested in a war where both sides seem perfectly happy to continue on with the status quo. Now, someone is going to come along and tell me that of course there are Israelis and Palestinians who care and want to make something work. I don’t doubt that at all. There just aren’t enough of them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4406 "2025-05-21T17:12:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s just mind boggling that anyone honestly believes that _this time_ it’s different, _this time_ the killing of thousands of civilians is necessary as collateral damage on the way to true peace and security. Are Hamas rocket or terrorist attacks aimed at only military? > [@Babale](#): > > What have the Gazans offered Israel that would incentivize their peaceful co-existence? Other than rockets, suicide bombings, stabbing attacks, and the largest terrorist attack in Israeli history? Yep. > [@Babale](#): > > You think there was another way to fight Hamas. I think that’s delusional. Wait ten years and get every country on the planet on board; you still have to bomb Hamas eventually, and since they’re under civilian infrastructure, civilians will have died. Yes, Hamas lies, steals food from their own people and commits horrible atrocities. And they hide in or under hospitals, etc- Hamas likes it when israel hits one of those targets and kills a dozen innocents and a few Hamas terrorist- Hamas reports only women and children died, and there is another propaganda win. > [@Broomstick](#): > > There was an attempted coup to try to prevent the Emperor from announcing surrender. Many people are unaware of this- and note several similar coups had succeeded. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2025, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4407 "2025-05-21T17:18:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Are Hamas rocket or terrorist attacks aimed at only military? Completely irrelevant to my point. The fact that Hamas is a murderous death cult doesn’t mean that Israel’s present strategy, which is resulting in tens of thousands of civilians dead, is going to result in a better future for Israelis and Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4408 "2025-05-22T00:10:45Z")
Some things Netanyahu has said recently about his plans in Gaza: On May 13: > [Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told lawmakers during closed-door testimony before the the Knesset’s Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee yesterday that Israel is “destroying more and more houses [in Gaza and Palestinians accordingly] have nowhere to return,” according to quotes from the session leaked to the media.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pm-said-to-tell-mks-israel-destroying-homes-in-gaza-so-palestinians-have-nowhere-else-to-go-but-outside-the-strip/) > > [“The only obvious result will be Gazans choosing to emigrate outside of the Strip,” Netanyahu continued. “But our main problem is finding countries to take them in.”](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pm-said-to-tell-mks-israel-destroying-homes-in-gaza-so-palestinians-have-nowhere-else-to-go-but-outside-the-strip/) And yesterday: > [Responding to those who are pushing for an end to war in Gaza, Netanyahu says he “is ready to end the war, under clear conditions that will ensure the safety of Israel – all the hostages come home, Hamas lays down its arms, steps down from power, its leadership is exiled from the Strip… Gaza is totally disarmed, and we carry out the Trump plan. A plan that is so correct and so revolutionary.”](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-implementation-of-trumps-gaza-relocation-plan-is-condition-for-ending-war/) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4409 "2025-05-22T00:32:58Z")
Sure, but who is Netanyahu? Just some random Israeli extremist. Like MTG. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4410 "2025-05-22T00:56:12Z")
Anyone who says “The Trump plan is so correct” is the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4411 "2025-05-22T03:32:44Z")
This might belong in its own thread but I see on MSNBC that an Israeli diplomat has just been killed near the Jewish Museum in Washington DC. CNN article here: > **[Individuals connected to Israeli Embassy shot in DC, sources says | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2025/05/21/politics/individuals-connected-to-israeli-embassy-shot-in-dc-sources-says)** > > Two people believed to be connected to the Israeli Embassy in Washington, DC, were shot Wednesday night near the Capital Jewish Museum, according to a source familiar with the situation and a law enforcement source. Another law enforcement source... ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4412 "2025-05-22T03:44:51Z")
Yeah, i suggest you start a breaking news thread. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4413 "2025-05-22T08:16:31Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Now, someone is going to come along and tell me that of course there are Israelis and Palestinians who care and want to make something work. I don’t doubt that at all. There just aren’t enough of them. That, and none of those folks are in a position of power to _do something_ to end these endless cycles of violence and retribution. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4414 "2025-05-22T11:29:29Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > This might belong in its own thread but I see on MSNBC that an Israeli diplomat has just been killed near the Jewish Museum in Washington DC. CNN article here: Two people murdered and the killer chanted “Free Palestine” as he was arrested. Neither of them is a _diplomat_, these were just young staffers. Apparently a young couple, the man was planning to propose and had bought a ring. And the reaction, of course, is already as unhinged as you might expect, with online communities celebrating this and calling for more… Disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4415 "2025-05-22T11:40:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > UN says 14,000 babies at risk of imminent starvation death due to lack of aid. The UN clarified their idiotic statement: > **[UN says no aid yet distributed in Gaza as international pressure on Israel...](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crk2264nrn2o)** > > Israel agreed on Sunday to allow a "basic amount of food" to enter Gaza, where global experts have warned of a looming famine. > [@](#): > > Speaking to the BBC’s Today programme, Mr Fletcher said: “There are 14,000 babies that will die in the next 48 hours unless we can reach them.” > > When pressed on how he had arrived at that figure, he said there were “strong teams on the ground” operating in medical centres and schools - but did not provide further details. > > The BBC later asked for clarification on the figure from the UN’s Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UNOCHA), which said: “We are pointing to the imperative of getting supplies in to save an estimated 14,000 babies suffering from severe acute malnutrition in Gaza, as the IPC partnership has warned about. We need to get the supplies in as soon as possible, ideally within the next 48 hours.” > > It highlighted a report from the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) which stated 14,100 severe cases of acute malnutrition are expected to occur among children aged six to 59 months between April 2025 and March 2026. > > **The IPC report says this could take place over the course of about a year - not 48 hours.** I do have to wonder how you’d even ask if it _is_ true or not. People don’t starve to death within 48 hours; it takes a couple of days. And people don’t all starve at once, so it’s not like you can say “they ran out of food exactly three days ago, so in two days they’ll hit 5 days and drop dead”. So, how on Earth would anyone possibly make a claim like “14,000 kids will starve to death 48 hours from now”? Unless like, an average rate of 7,000 starvation deaths is already happening, in which case you could say that 14,000 people will starve but that seems like a weird thing to focus on when you could talk about ongoing deaths instead. Doesn’t the claim itself seem ridiculous on the face of it? Shouldn’t your immediate response be “Wow, this doesn’t make _any sense_” rather than “Wow, is Israel really this bad?”. This is a fractal microcosm of the greater conversation we are having, and precisely why I don’t feel like it has been productive. And you’ll note that the UN is making the exact same bullshit claims it made a year ago, and when stravation fails to materialize in exactly the same way, they’ll say nothing. Or they’ll point to projections and claim they are proof they were right, even though no actual starvation deaths are shown. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4416 "2025-05-22T12:07:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So, how on Earth would anyone possibly make a claim like “14,000 kids will starve to death 48 hours from now”? Unless like, an average rate of 7,000 starvation deaths is already happening, in which case you could say that 14,000 people will starve but that seems like a weird thing to focus on when you could talk about ongoing deaths instead. Yeah, i heard that and had the same thought. People for fast enough of dehydration that you could plausibly predict deaths in a few days. But starvation? In a two day window? And a lot of famine deaths aren’t from “starvation”. They are from infections and stuff that the weakened body can’t fight off. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2025, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4417 "2025-05-22T12:54:13Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And a lot of famine deaths aren’t from “starvation”. They are from infections and stuff that the weakened body can’t fight off. Kinda like it’s not the fall that kills you it’s the sudden stop. They are related. I have read that there are many people in Gaza suffering from conditions that have prevailed for months, causing many to be on the brink of starvation and it’s related ailments. While I believe the statement was hyperbolic, it’s the quality of stuff you expect on morning TV and there is a food crisis in southern Gaza. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=213) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=215)