# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 218
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4478 "2025-06-09T12:33:06Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > @Babale - can you tell us what you consider trustworthy news sources. I don’t think CNN is lying in the body of the article; the body of the article just doesn’t actually support the claim the headline is making. Same exact thing that happened with the al-Halil “hospital” “bombing”. Outlets like CNN ran headlines that declared, “ISRAEL KILLS 500 AT HOSPITAL THAT WAS DESTROYED BY AIRSTRIKE”. But the body of the article, even initially, _did_ correctly state that all this info was coming from Hamas, and that there was no actual evidence it had happened. So when it turned out that actually a PIJ rocket misfired and hit a parking lot, it wasn’t like CNN had actively _lied_; they just took Hamas at their word and crafted a far too credulous headline. Al-Jazeera is a propaganda outlet - go read their exact same articles in English and Arabic on issues like LGBT rights and you’ll see exactly what I mean. Al-Jazeera will say exactly what they think they need to to get their desired results. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4479 "2025-06-09T12:42:12Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …she popularised the [“Intellectual Dark Web”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_dark_web), the cadre of “anti-woke” people of what she sees herself a member of that include Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro. _Did_ she? I don’t really see any evidence of that. I googled her alongside a bunch of names from the IDW, and it looks like she last went on Rogan about 4 years ago when they got in a huge fight over Tulsi Gabbard (who Weiss detests - point for her!) that Rogan fans are still butthurt over to this day. And more recently, she debated against Ben Shapiro right before the election, arguing that Kamala should be elected. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > She’s run hit-pieces on trans healthcare, is a supporter of the “men’s rights movement”. More empty assertions? I tried looking up articles related to these issues on TFP; I won’t link them here as it would be a hijack, but while I disagree with some of the positions presented, I don’t think it would be fair to call any of the articles I came across “hit pieces”. And when it comes to “men’s rights”, the article I came across is by Bari herself, 3 days old, and comes across as “the far right appeals to young boys’ worst impulses, we need to reach them with a better message” - hardly some Men’s Rights Activist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4480 "2025-06-09T12:44:55Z")
> **[Israeli forces intercept Gaza activists' aid boat with Greta Thunberg on board...](https://www.bbc.com/news/live/clyg5x15n3zt)** > > Israel's foreign ministry has branded it a "selfie yacht", and says the boat is "safely making its way to the shores of Israel". The IDF stopped a small boat carrying a small amount of aid (and no weapons at all, at least none reported in the media) traveling to Gaza. I get that this was a boat with celebrities essentially provoking just this type of confrontation… why did the IDF give it to them? Why not just allow this small bit of aid through? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4481 "2025-06-09T13:00:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Same exact thing that happened with the al-Halil “hospital” “bombing” I still would like to know which sources you trust. I tried to read up on the event and the wikipedia article carefully doesn’t point finger, but goes through a lot of different sources. You’re quite correct that the narrative changed after the initial reporting. There is, however, still many things that are unclear, at least judging by the back and forth between different media sources, different (for a lack of a better word) experts contradicting each other in the same source, government officials grandstanding in many countries, and politicians from all over the spectrum weighing in. It’s obviously a very controversial topic, almost always tainted/tinted by the bias of whoever makes a statement. Note that I’m not saying that your take on it is wrong. I see many sources agreeing with you. But I do wonder about the scare quotes around hospital. It was founded in 1882 and is managed by the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem, i.e. an Anglican church. How is that not a hospital? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4482 "2025-06-09T13:08:21Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > Note that I’m not saying that your take on it is wrong. I see many sources agreeing with you. But I do wonder about the scare quotes around hospital. It was founded in 1882 and is managed by the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem, i.e. an Anglican church. How is that not a hospital? It’s a hospital. The scare quotes are because the hospital _was not in fact hit at all_. The rocket landed in the parking lot. > [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > I still would like to know which sources you trust. I trust sources that show their work to a sufficient level that a layperson can follow along and check it. So with the al-Halil Parking Lot Rocket Strike, I trust OSINT publications that cite every claim they make, show their work, and address other narratives, debunking them. What does that mean in the immediate aftermath of an event? Typically that there _really isn’t_ source you should rely on, aside from maybe sources that are _exceedingly careful_ with the claims that they make. And since careful, nuanced claims don’t make headlines that sell papers… Well. Let’s just say I don’t think that journalism as a whole is in a very good place at the moment. Which is why my reaction to this latest reported shooting was what it was: I stated the facts as I understood them to be (the IDF isn’t at the GHF site at all since they hire Palestinians to provide security; the GHF released footage from the time of the alleged incident that shows no gunshots were happening at the site at that time) and waited for more info. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4483 "2025-06-09T13:31:19Z")
Meanwhile, in other news: The “Celebrity Cruise” headed for Gaza has been diverted with no injuries. I’m glad we didn’t have a repeat of the incident from like a decade ago, where people on a ship tried to come at the troops with clubs and axes. [![](https://www.jta.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/Gs_JIXwWAAAzo_h.jpeg) ](https://www.jta.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/Gs_JIXwWAAAzo_h.jpeg) In fact, this seems like the best of all possible outcomes: the ship is diverted, the celebrities on board are detained and will be watching some Oct 7 footage so they can learn exactly what it is they’re so supportive of, and the best part: all of the aid they brought will be getting distributed through normal means to the people of Gaza! Well, they brought like, three bags of flour, because this was a publicity stunt, not an aid mission. But those three bags of flour are going to Gaza! ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4484 "2025-06-09T13:52:22Z")
The “normal means” that humanitarian groups say are none in a way that causes problems? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4485 "2025-06-09T13:56:36Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > The “normal means” that humanitarian groups say are none in a way that causes problems?. They’re being sent in by the GHF. As noted, there are people invested in the Hamas-UNRWA partnership that is the status quo, and they’re going to paint the GHF in as negative a light as possible, but everything I’ve seen so far shows it has been very effective. It’s certainly a better idea than Greta and company running around an active war zone handing out food. I’m sure they cleared it with Hamas, but if PIJ or some other group decides they can score some extra leverage by holding them hostage, who’s going to rescue them or negotiate for their release? Hamas? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4486 "2025-06-09T14:05:37Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s certainly a better idea than Greta and company running around an active war zone handing out food. I’m sure they cleared it with Hamas, but if PIJ or some other group decides they can score some extra leverage by holding them hostage, who’s going to rescue them or negotiate for their release? Hamas? Or they could kill them and blame it on Israel. Either kill them themselves or do something like fire a rocket from near their position and hope they die in the return fire. It’ll be a huge coup for their cause. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4487 "2025-06-09T15:57:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > As noted, there are people invested in the Hamas-UNRWA partnership that is the status quo, and they’re going to paint the GHF in as negative a light as possible Did you ever read _Left Behind_? It features a woman who works at an abortion clinic who is really upset that she can’t do abortions. (People have stopped getting pregnant.) That’s what you sound like. Yes, i imagine there are Palestinians who work for the local aid organizations who are invested in what they do. But American doctors who work for Doctors without Borders say the same thing. Those people can find other work. I find them more trustworthy than most of the other people reporting at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4488 "2025-06-09T15:58:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Or they could kill them and blame it on Israel. Either kill them themselves or do something like fire a rocket from near their position and hope they die in the return fire. It’ll be a huge coup for their cause. Yeah, celebrities walking into war zones are asking for trouble. Despite my comments above, I’m glad they didn’t create a serious incident. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2025, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4489 "2025-06-09T16:30:03Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yes, i imagine there are Palestinians who work for the local aid organizations who are invested in what they do. Absolutely! Those aren’t the people upset about Gazans actually getting aid. The people upset about that are the corrupt ones, who’ve allowed UNRWA to coordinate with Hamas for decades, enriching both. They’re not upset that they don’t get to give aid anymore or whatever you misinterpreted me to be saying. They’re upset because they were corrupt, and now they can’t continue to engage in corruption. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4490 "2025-06-10T03:58:09Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > More empty assertions? …this thread is about _Gaza_. I didn’t think you wanted a novel. I addressed your concerns. If you want an example of why we shouldn’t trust the Free Press’s editorial standards, I’ll point you to this article: > **[I Thought I Was Saving Trans Kids. Now I’m Blowing the Whistle.](https://www.thefp.com/p/i-thought-i-was-saving-trans-kids)** > > There are more than 100 pediatric gender clinics across the U.S. I worked at one. What’s happening to children is morally and medically appalling. And here are a series of articles that point out the serious ethical and editorial lapses in that article. > **[A Trans Teen Is Debunking an Article That Attacked Their Gender Clinic](https://www.them.us/story/trans-teen-debunking-gender-clinic-article)** > > The article was published in the media outlet founded by former New York Times writer Bari Weiss. [https://missouriindependent.com/2023/03/01/transgender-st-louis-whistleblower/](https://missouriindependent.com/2023/03/01/transgender-st-louis-whistleblower/) > **[Missouri Anti-trans "Whistleblower" Story Is A Manufactured Controversy -...](https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/missouri-anti-trans-whistleblower)** > > Jamie Reed's story is being pushed by the worst of the worst anti-trans voices on the internet. I dig point-by-point through her claims and show how they undermine her conclusions. Just like the video you posted, it was alarmist propaganda, and any reputable news agency wouldn’t have published it. > [@Babale](#): > > Well, they brought like, three bags of flour, because this was a publicity stunt, not an aid mission. This more accurately describes the so-called “Gaza Humanitarian Foundation.” They may only open for twenty minutes, provide no water, no fuel, but plenty of dry pasta." And somehow the IDF keep killing people trying to get food from them. More than 130 people have been killed so far, and over 700 wounded. Killings daily. 14 killed today. They are a fucking joke. > [@Babale](#): > > they’re going to paint the GHF in as negative a light as possible When I first saw the former Executive director Jake Wood on TV he surprised me, because he wasn’t full of the same rhetoric and bluster that you come to expect: he actually sounded like a good, reasonable guy who wanted to make a difference. So it didn’t come as a surprise that he resigned shortly before the GHF began operations. As has already been pointed out in the thread, he said: "“However, it is clear that it is not possible to implement this plan while also strictly adhering to the humanitarian principles of humanity, neutrality, impartiality, and independence, which I will not abandon” “I urge Israel to significantly expand the provision of aid into Gaza through all mechanisms, and I urge all stakeholders to continue to explore innovative new methods for the delivery of aid, without delay, diversion, or discrimination,” The GHF are being painted in a negative light because they _deserve it_. They aren’t independent. They only have five distribution compounds, not near population centres, nothing in the north. The food they are providing mostly needs water, needs fuel, to cook, and both of those things are still under blockade. > [@Babale](#): > > but everything I’ve seen so far shows it has been very effective. There is _nothing_ effective about what the GHF have done at all. You keep talking (without evidence) about wide-spread UNRWA corruption: but they aren’t the only NGO on the ground. The World Food Programme. The World Food Kitchen. ZOA International. HEAL Palestine. All on the ground, all ready to go. All, unlike the GHF, with experience. Many with the equipment to actually cook the food. GHF are doing nothing about shelter, about water, about the estimated thousands who can’t make it to the distribution points. They are a joke. They serve two purposes: to get international pressure off their backs. Secondly: control where the population lives. And they can do nothing about this: > [@](#): > > Following the closure of crossings on 2 March, hygiene and protection supplies such as sanitary pads, dignity kits, and soap have remained blocked from entering Gaza. Out of an estimated 10.4 million sanitary pads needed each month, over 75 per cent remains unmet: “This is not just a supply gap – it’s a full-scale crisis of health, dignity, and protection.” > **[Humanitarian Situation Update #292 | Gaza Strip | United Nations Office for...](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/humanitarian-situation-update-292-gaza-strip)** > > 600 days on, people in Gaza, half of whom are children, face a crisis of survival. The Humanitarian Country Team in the Occupied Palestinian Territory warns that the new militarized distribution system does not meet the needs or dignity of people in... The siege _isn’t just stopping food_. > [@Alessan](#): > > Either kill them themselves or do something like fire a rocket from near their position and hope they die in the return fire. The IDF don’t need any help targeting innocent civilians. > [@Babale](#): > > Those aren’t the people upset about Gazans actually getting aid. They are upset that the aid agencies on the ground aren’t being allowed to do their jobs, that food, water, fuel, medical supplies are sitting in trucks waiting not being allowed in. > [@Babale](#): > > They’re not upset that they don’t get to give aid anymore or whatever you misinterpreted me to be saying. They’re upset because they were corrupt, and now they can’t continue to engage in corruption. They are watching their friends and families dying in the most horrible and obscene ways. Today 3 more paramedics were targeted and assassinated along with a journalist. They’ve now put a target on Civil Defence spokesman Mahmoud Basal. They are systematically targeting healthcare workers, scholars, journalists, civil servants. This isn’t about “corruption.” Here is Cindy McCain saying there is no evidence Hamas [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9oxVDsbr\_s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9oxVDsbr_s) is stealing aid. But there is evidence that Israeli-backed gangs are the ones doing the actual stealing. > **[Israel admits support for anti-Hamas armed group accused of looting Gaza aid](https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20250607-israel-admits-support-anti-hamas-armed-group-accused-looting-gaza-aid-bedouin-abu-shabab)** > > Israeli officials have acknowledged supporting an armed group opposed to Hamas in Gaza after opposition lawmaker Avigdor Lieberman said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government was arming "criminals… > [@Babale](#): > > I’m glad we didn’t have a repeat of the incident from like a decade ago, where people on a ship tried to come at the troops with clubs and axes. From the UN report: > [@UN Report](#): > > Israel’s decision to board the vessels with such substantial force at a great > distance from the blockade zone and with no final warning immediately prior > to the boarding was excessive and unreasonable: > a. Non-violent options should have been used in the first instance. In > particular, clear prior warning that the vessels were to be boarded and a > demonstration of dissuading force should have been given to avoid the > type of confrontation that occurred; > b. The operation should have reassessed its options when the resistance to > the initial boarding attempt became apparent. > > … > > The loss of life and injuries resulting from the use of force by Israeli forces > during the take-over of the Mavi Marmara was unacceptable. Nine > passengers were killed and many others seriously wounded by Israeli forces. > No satisfactory explanation has been provided to the Panel by Israel for any > 4 > Strictly Confidential > of the nine deaths. **Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were** > **shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not been** > **adequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel.** > ix. There was significant mistreatment of passengers by Israeli authorities after > the take-over of the vessels had been completed through until their > deportation. This included physical mistreatment, harassment and > intimidation, unjustified confiscation of belongings and the denial of timely > consular assistance. Bolding mine. > **[Palmer-Committee-Final-report.pdf](https://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/world/Palmer-Committee-Final-report.pdf)** > > 614.06 KB ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4491 "2025-06-10T09:34:59Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > They’re being sent in by the GHF. As noted, there are people invested in the Hamas-UNRWA partnership that is the status quo, and they’re going to paint the GHF in as negative a light as possible, but everything I’ve seen so far shows it has been very effective. Multiple articles agree they are delivering inadequate amounts of food, from limited distribution points, and handing it out on a first-come first-served basis. That’s a set-up that’s almost guaranteed to lead to disorder as desperate people compete to access the available supplies. It also fails to reach the most vulnerable entirely. Trying to police a volatile crowd is far less effective than creating a fairer and more orderly delivery method. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4492 "2025-06-10T11:12:38Z")
Inability to admit one’s own side can make mistakes, or may contain bad actors, is a sure sign of bias. > [@Babale](#): > > In fact, the shooting referenced happened half a kilometer away from the aid distribution site, near the Netzarim crossing. A bullet from a military rifle can travel three times that far. > [@Babale](#): > > But again, if you think about _why_ an organization like Doctors Without Borders would say something like this, it is perfectly clear; their incentive structure rewards entrancing themselves as the only providers of aid possible, not actually resolving the issue. Wow. That is genuinely the only time I’ve heard MSF accused of that sort of thing. Sure, like any other organization composed of people there have been some bad apples and problems but honestly, unless you can come up with PROOF that MSF is doing such a thing I’m going to say you are either victim of misinformation or just wrong. Of course, there are people who get upset that MSF will treat ALL injured arising form a conflict, people from both sides of a war and accuse them of “helping the enemy” because they take care of all patients without regard to which side they’re on. Are you one of those people? > [@Babale](#): > > But those are both lies. Given the “fog of war”, the prevention of objection reporting, the slaughter of journalists, loads of propaganda, and strong bias on both sides of this conflict leaping to “lies”, that is “delibrate falsehood” is a stretch in many instances. Also - I can’t read Hebrew. Neither can most others here. While it is possible to get sites translated these days it’s more work for the people you’re trying to convince of the rightness of your position. Lots of folks just won’t bother. You really can’t find English versions of your sources? ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4493 "2025-06-10T11:53:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > the celebrities on board are detained and will be watching some Oct 7 footage so they can learn exactly what it is they’re so supportive of, Do you really believe those celebrities support what happened on October 7? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4494 "2025-06-10T12:19:28Z")
And the horror of October 7th has been exceeded many times over in Gaza by now. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Wow. That is genuinely the only time I’ve heard MSF accused of that sort of thing MSF has been opposed to Israel’s actions in Gaza from very early on. And Babale has been accusing them of lying ever since. Given that Israel has been killing so many journalists in the region, i, personally, find MSF one of the more credible data sources. I mean, there’s the IDF, there are various Hamas -linked entities. And there are these international aid organizations with boots on the ground, some of whom cycle back home. It’s not just MSF, it’s also the groups that try to distribute food and similar aid that Babale says are all lying. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4495 "2025-06-10T12:23:24Z")
This is one of the things I object to - the notion that feeding starving people who are caught in the crossfire is somehow being “supportive” of Oct 7. No, it’s _being a fucking decent human being_ to feed starving people. If someone maintains that providing food to people who have no means to feed themselves is wrong and supportive of terrorism then I’d say that person is “supportive” of genocide. Because that’s what it’s called when you deliberately starve a population and prevent help getting to them. And before @Babale comes back with how corrupt absolutely every single aid agency is and has forever been - no system it going to be perfect. If you insist on perfection people will die who could have otherwise been saved. Don’t let perfection get in the way of the good saving lives. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4496 "2025-06-10T12:52:17Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Also - I can’t read Hebrew. Neither can most others here. While it is possible to get sites translated these days it’s more work for the people you’re trying to convince of the rightness of your position. Lots of folks just won’t bother. You really can’t find English versions of your sources? I daresay I _can_ read Hebrew, and the only sources (“sources”?) mentioned in that link are the Gazan Health Ministry and the IDF. If you do not want to take what they say at face value and are looking for independent accounts of what happened, then that link says… nothing at all. PS delivering food and other aid to people caught in a war zone is not easy. I know of a case in Ukraine where they had to found a brand-new NGO from scratch, with all that entails, and people personally vouched for because all the aid people were working hard to send was being stolen and sold on the black market. If you (running your NGO) do not personally know the people in Gaza who will be distributing the food, that they are trustworthy and competent, then you can kiss it good-bye. Also with people as starving/desperate as they are this is getting beyond run-of-the mill disaster relief and you need people with actual relevant experience. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4497 "2025-06-10T13:20:13Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Multiple articles agree they are delivering inadequate amounts of food, from limited distribution points, and handing it out on a first-come first-served basis. It’s a brand new initiative that just started. I would agree that it needs to be ramped up significantly, and I hope that’s exactly what happens. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Of course, there are people who get upset that MSF will treat ALL injured arising form a conflict, people from both sides of a war and accuse them of “helping the enemy” because they take care of all patients without regard to which side they’re on. Are you one of those people? Nope! I explained pretty precisely what my issue is, I thought. MSF’s actual work treating people is one thing. Their commentary on aid distribution, and on the necessity of cooperating with known sponsors of terrorism like UNRWA, is quite another. Speaking of treating ALL injuries regardless of whose side they’re on, guess who removed Sinwar’s brain tumor? This is something Israel routinely does, as it should, because it’s the right thing to do. > [@OldOlds](#): > > Do you really believe those celebrities support what happened on October 7? No, but I think they’re probably pretty ignorant of what has happened. For example, I’ve seen celebrities and far left activists like Hasan Piker make the leap from “that one specific story started by a foreign reporter about 40 beheaded babies is false, therefore we can conclude that no babies were killed” or denying that any rapes happened on October 7th. Just the other day, one of these activists was on Sam Seder’s show, The Majority Report, talking about how Oct 7th was a major strategic victory and wonderful way to set Israel’s occupation back, and he _only talked about the fighting that happened at military bases_, totally ignoring the massacre of civilians. When that’s the media environment that people like Greta are exposed to, I think that they have a _very_ twisted view of what happened on October 7th. Which they won’t be correcting, because apparently Greta refuses to watch the videos. I guess she doesn’t have faith in her own conviction on this issue… > [@Broomstick](#): > > This is one of the things I object to - the notion that feeding starving people who are caught in the crossfire is somehow being “supportive” of Oct 7. No, it’s _being a fucking decent human being_ to feed starving people. That _is_ a ridiculous notion! Who holds it? > [@Broomstick](#): > > If someone maintains that providing food to people who have no means to feed themselves is wrong and supportive of terrorism then I’d say that person is “supportive” of genocide. I’m sorry, who do you think maintains that providing food to people who have no means to feed themselves is wrong and supportive of terrorism? That’s certainly not my position. My position is that _the specific organization UNRWA_ is deeply intertwined with Hamas, and the _specific way_ that they go about distributing aid allows Hamas to entrench its control over the Strip, and that this needs to change. > [@Broomstick](#): > > If you insist on perfection people will die who could have otherwise been saved. Don’t let perfection get in the way of the good saving lives. I agree, that’s why I support GHF, despite it’s flaws and room to grow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=217) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=219)