# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 219
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4498 "2025-06-10T13:34:47Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s a brand new initiative that just started. There are dozens of programs with deep experience in this field, many of whom were trying to deliver aid in Gaza. There’s no reason to reinvent the wheel. > [@Babale](#): > > Greta refuses to watch the videos I would, too. I avoid snuff videos, whenever possible. I’m happy someone is willing to watch that footage and testify to it’s contents. That doesn’t have to be me. I am quite certain that civilians were brutally murdered and people were raped. I don’t want to watch the rapes, either. Yes, it was horrible and evil. So is the destruction wreaked upon civilians in Gaza since then. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4499 "2025-06-10T14:01:51Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > There’s no reason to reinvent the wheel. On the contrary: the way that Hamas controls aid distribution and operates out of hospitals and UNRWA sites is a HUGE REASON to reinvent the wheel. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I would, too. I avoid snuff videos, whenever possible. I’m happy someone is willing to watch that footage and testify to it’s contents. That doesn’t have to be me. You didn’t try to play hero and Livestream your blockade running attempt into an active warzone, so I don’t see any reason why you should be forced to. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4500 "2025-06-10T14:15:23Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > There’s no reason to reinvent the wheel. > > On the contrary: the way that Hamas controls aid distribution and operates out of hospitals and UNRWA sites is a HUGE REASON to reinvent the wheel. A large number of food aid organizations work in a huge number of locations around the world. Most of them are completely unrelated to Hamas. No, there really isn’t any reason to reinvent the wheel. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4501 "2025-06-10T14:17:41Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > A large number of food aid organizations work in a huge number of locations around the world. Most of them are completely unrelated to Hamas. No, there really isn’t any reason to reinvent the wheel Then why did none of them manage to operate in Gaza in a way free from Hamas’ control until the GHF? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4502 "2025-06-10T14:28:50Z")
I don’t know. Israel has killed too many journalists for any decent investigative reporting. I also don’t know what level of “control” Hamas had, because i frankly don’t trust anything from the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4503 "2025-06-10T14:34:14Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > because i frankly don’t trust anything from the IDF. And that’s the crux of it. Sure, if you want to conclude that everything the IDF says is a lie offhand, then you and I will come to irreconcilably different conclusions, and there’s not much point debating them. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4504 "2025-06-10T14:39:33Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > the way that Hamas controls aid distribution …Hamas didn’t and doesn’t control aid distribution. > [@Babale](#): > > and operates out of hospitals and UNRWA sites Hamas are not operating out of hospitals and UNRWA sites. > [@Babale](#): > > You didn’t try to play hero and Livestream your blockade running attempt into an active warzone People SHOULD be allowed to break illegal blockades that are preventing aid from getting through to millions of people. And if those people happen to get detained by those enforcing that illegal blockade, It’s just plain fucking weird to decide to show them snuff footage. > [@Babale](#): > > Then why did none of them manage to operate in Gaza in a way free from Hamas’ control until the GHF? They all cooperated with the government of Gaza: as they should. But they all also operated in a way free from “Hamas control.” You need to be reminded that Jake Wood resigned from GHF BECAUSE he couldn’t be guaranteed the ability to run the Foundation independently. Israel would be calling the shots. As always: _every accusation is a confession_. The problem wasn’t Hamas controlling the aid. The problem NOW is Israel controlling the aid. Deciding that only a limited amount of food is all that the Palestinians in Gaza need. That shelter, tents, water, fuel, medical supplies, female hygiene products: _aren’t needed_. And thats exactly why the GHF and Israel should NOT be in control of aid distribution. Because these are the things that distribution networks are already set up for, which are waiting in trucks just outside the border. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4505 "2025-06-10T14:43:33Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > because i frankly don’t trust anything from the IDF. > > And that’s the crux of it. Sure, if you want to conclude that everything the IDF says is a lie offhand, then you and I will come to irreconcilably different conclusions, and there’s not much point debating them. My a priori is that both IDF and Hamas are apt to lie to support their positions, yes. And if you trust everything IDF says, then i agree, we will come to irreconcilably different conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4506 "2025-06-10T14:49:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > the way that Hamas controls aid distribution > > …Hamas didn’t and doesn’t control aid distribution. > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > and operates out of hospitals and UNRWA sites > > Hamas are not operating out of hospitals and UNRWA sites. Yes, they absolutely did: > [@](#): > > Among the 12,521 UNRWA employees in the Gaza Strip, at least 1,462 (12%) are members of Hamas or other designated terrorist organizations. > Out of 546 principals and deputy-principals in UNRWA’s education facilities, at least 80 (15%) are members of terrorist organizations. > UNRWA employees actively participated in the October 7th attacks on Israel. > [@](#): > > Throughout the current war and long before it, Hamas systematically exploited UNRWA’s facilities, equipment and infrastructure as a method of warfare. > Hamas dug terror tunnels intentionally under UNRWA schools placing shafts in or next to those facilities. In at least two confirmed cases, the schools’ principals were Hamas military wing members. > **Hamas operated the advanced server farm of its central intelligence command center underneath UNRWA’s Gaza headquarters using electricity from that facility.** > Hamas regularly fired rockets from areas adjacent to UN institutions, especially from the vicinity of UNRWA schools. > **[The Connection Between UNRWA and Hamas in Gaza](https://govextra.gov.il/unrwa/unrwa/)** > > The Connection Between UNRWA and Hamas: > Verified Intelligence Hostages were being kept at UNRWA facilities: > **[British-Israeli hostage Emily Damari says Hamas held her at UN facilities](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj91ygv803xo)** > > During a call with the UK prime minister, Emily Damari says she was detained on UN premises inside Gaza. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > People SHOULD be allowed to break illegal blockades that are preventing aid from getting through to millions of people. As much good as it would do your cause if Hamas killed Greta and blamed it on Israel, I don’t think Israel should allow that to happen. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You need to be reminded that Jake Wood resigned from GHF BECAUSE he couldn’t be guaranteed the ability to run the Foundation independently. Israel would be calling the shots. _Good_. Israel _should_ call the shots, because for the last two decades since it pulled out of Gaza, it has not called the shots and that has been an unmitigated _disaster_. Israel should _continue_ to call the shots until a Palestinian government that’s not dedicated to the destruction of Israel can form, or until someone else in the world decides to step up and manage the interim government. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > And if you trust everything IDF says, Is that what I said? It certainly isn’t, but what I’ve said seems to matter very little to the counterarguments I receive in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4507 "2025-06-10T14:56:28Z")
I consider Hamas and the IDF to have comparable credibility. And i trust random doctors who have gone home from a stint with MSF more than either of them. So yes, we are going to come to different conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4508 "2025-06-10T15:00:19Z")
It is not about implicitly trusting or not, but you cannot uncritically accept statements made without independent corroborating sources. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4509 "2025-06-10T15:03:42Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I consider Hamas and the IDF to have comparable credibility. Yeah, that’s pretty flabbergasting to me. You find the standing army of a democratic nation with a free press that hosts _tons_ of its own criticism to be equally credible to Hamas, which has been routinely executing Palestinians who protest or speak up against them. It’s not just flabbergasting, if I’m being honest… That’s almost fascinating to me. You have to hand it to Hamas, their propaganda arm is _extremely_ effective. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4510 "2025-06-10T15:08:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Yes, they absolutely did: …UNRWA’s response: [https://www.unrwa.org/unrwa-claims-versus-facts-2025](https://www.unrwa.org/unrwa-claims-versus-facts-2025) > [@UNRWA](#): > > The Facts: UNRWA has not received any information, let alone any evidence, from the Israeli Authorities or any other Member State about the above claim. UNRWA became aware of this claim first from international media and later from a press briefing by an Israeli government official. > > … > > **The Claim :** In July 2024, the Government of Israel provided UNRWA with a list of 100 names allegedly members of the military wing of Palestinian armed groups, including Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, claiming the U.N remains silent and UNRWA did nothing about it. > > **The Facts** : The UNRWA Commissioner-General immediately responded to this letter, requesting further information and evidence to substantiate these claims. The Government of Israel is yet to respond to his letter. The above-mentioned correspondence can be provided upon request. > > … > > **The Claim** : UNRWA has blood on its hands. On 7 October 2023, an UNRWA worker kidnapped a hostage from southern Israel to Gaza. To date, there has been no apology, no explanation, no condemnation by the U.N. as to why its employees participated in the horrific 7 October attacks, including by abducting hostages. > > **The Facts** : The outcomes of the OIOS investigations regarding the alleged involvement of 19 UNRWA staff in the 7 October attacks are clear: in one case, no evidence was obtained to support the allegations, while in nine other cases, the evidence was insufficient to support claims of involvement. In the remaining nine cases, the evidence obtained by OIOS - if authenticated and corroborated - might indicate that the staff members may have been involved, and their employment was formally terminated in the interest of UNRWA. The evidence was never authenticated or corroborated. [https://www.unrwa.org/unrwa-claims-versus-facts-2025](https://www.unrwa.org/unrwa-claims-versus-facts-2025) And the “alleged server farm” hasn’t been independently verified. > [@Babale](#): > > Hostages were being kept at UNRWA facilities: > > [British-Israeli hostage Emily Damari says Hamas held her at UN facilities](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj91ygv803xo) From UNRWA: > [@](#): > > **The Claim:** Hostages were held in UNRWA shelters during the war. > > **The Facts:** Claims that hostages have been held in UNRWA premises, even if previously vacated during the war, are extremely serious. UNRWA has no way to find out based on the current information available from media and open sources reports only. Those who have such information or more information on this allegation are encouraged to pass it on formally to UNRWA or other parts of the United Nations. UNRWA continues to call for independent investigations into claims of misuse of UNRWA premises by Palestinian armed groups, including Hamas, and all other allegations that keep coming against the Agency. And if you can back up your claims about hospitals: please feel free to share. > [@Babale](#): > > As much good as it would do your cause if Hamas killed Greta and blamed it on Israel, It is MUCH more likely Greta would have been killed either by the IDF or one of its proxy gangs. > [@Babale](#): > > Israel _should_ call the shots No they absolutely should not. Because they are not capable of doing so. For example: how many tents have been allowed into Gaza last month? Because at the start of the year the World Food Programme said there were 2 million people homeless in Gaza. Cite. > **['In every street there are dead': Gaza rescuers reckon with scale of destruction](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn8x00mgjxmo)** > > Gaza's Civil Defence agency said it feared there were more than 10,000 bodies still buried under rubble. Why is Israel not allowing in tents? > [@Babale](#): > > Israel should _continue_ to call the shots until a Palestinian government that’s not dedicated to the destruction of Israel can form, or until someone else in the world decides to step up and manage the interim government. Why is Israel not letting in feminine hygiene products? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4511 "2025-06-10T15:38:55Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > I consider Hamas and the IDF to have comparable credibility. > > Yeah, that’s pretty flabbergasting to me. You find the standing army of a democratic nation with a free press that hosts _tons_ of its own criticism to be equally credible to Hamas, which has been routinely executing Palestinians who protest or speak up against them. > > It’s not just flabbergasting, if I’m being honest… That’s almost fascinating to me. You have to hand it to Hamas, their propaganda arm is _extremely_ effective. Naw, i don’t trust Hamas. What astonishes me is that you trust the IDF, a military force that’s waging an ugly war, to tell you the truth. The US military lied all through the Vietnam war. Is Israel now a place whose military is more trustworthy than the US military was then? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4512 "2025-06-10T15:51:33Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Naw, i don’t trust Hamas. I didn’t say you did - I said you find them equally credible to Hamas (that is, not credible). > [@puzzlegal](#): > > What astonishes me is that you trust the IDF, a military force that’s waging an ugly war, to tell you the truth. Every war is ugly, doubly so one that’s fought in an urban environment like Gaza and triply so against an asymmetric opponent like Hamas. That’s why until Oct 7 I didn’t support a ground war in Gaza, during any of the prior conflicts with Israel since the withdrawal in 2005 - because it was always clear to me that a war in Gaza was going to be would be precisely this bloody. There are posts from 2023 where I say very much the same thing. I would ask if you don’t trust _any_ military that’s engaged in war, but based on your mention of America, I’d guess that’s pretty much precisely the case? > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Is Israel now a place whose military is more trustworthy than the US military was then? Well, yes, because of the relationship between government and press and the way it has changed across the world since the Vietnam war era. The US army during Iraq/Afghanistan was more trustworthy (or at least, more accountable) than the US army in Vietnam, too. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4513 "2025-06-10T18:36:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It’s just plain fucking weird to decide to show them snuff footage. It’s worse than weird, it’s a war crime. So, business as usual for the IDF then. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4514 "2025-06-10T18:49:08Z")
What does showing the videos even accomplish? Does the IDF really think it’s supposed to reduce sympathy for the Gazans who are suffering terribly? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4515 "2025-06-10T19:09:39Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Which they won’t be correcting, because apparently Greta refuses to watch the videos. I guess she doesn’t have faith in her own conviction on this issue… Would that work in reverse? If someone sat you down and showed you a bunch of photos and videos of dead Palestinian kids, with parts of their heads blown off, or missing limbs, or pulped by rubble, is there a point where that would be enough to make you rethink the war in Gaza? If you refused to go along with such an obviously emotionally manipulative tactic, would that be evidence that you don’t have faith in your conviction that the war in Gaza is necessary? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4516 "2025-06-10T19:38:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Would that work in reverse? If someone sat you down and showed you a bunch of photos and videos of dead Palestinian kids, with parts of their heads blown off, or missing limbs, or pulped by rubble, is there a point where that would be enough to make you rethink the war in Gaza? I don’t know if you haven’t noticed, but social media is chock full of that sort of thing. You think I haven’t seen it? There’s a poster in this very thread (or maybe in the Pit equivalent) who routinely makes wall of text posts with links to multiple examples of exactly what you describe. It’s like, the single most common rhetorical strategy of the Pro Palestinian side on social media. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2025, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4517 "2025-06-10T19:44:29Z")
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