# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/513 "2023-10-23T04:35:28Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There are also reports that Israeli Jews protesting IDF and Netanyahu government actions in Israel are being arrested, sometimes by the IDF and sometimes by vigilantes but I can’t confirm that these are accurate reports. There were already hundreds of thousands of anti-government protesters in Israel (albeit with the secret police well up in their business, but at least the sentiment was real though clearly superficial in that it in no way threatened the administration; talk is cheap). I suppose it’s a logical step to arrest anyone who is _really_ an anti-government protester if only because that does not fit in with flag-waving, camo-clad IDF, “Jews belong to Israel” (so not Muslims, Arabs, etc??) and similar propaganda. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > Which made me wonder, have the Palestinians as a people roundly condemned Hamas’ attacks? Have the Palestinian people - and whatever passes for their government - urged the Israeli army to peacefully enter Gaza whereupon the Palestinians will help them root out the terrible Hamas folk? No, Palestinians do not love the Israeli army, at least some of them that I have talked to. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/514 "2023-10-23T06:10:36Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Have the Palestinian people - and whatever passes for their government - urged the Israeli army to peacefully enter Gaza whereupon the Palestinians will help them root out the terrible Hamas folk? In the case of Gaza, Hamas is their government. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/515 "2023-10-23T13:55:51Z")
Thx - that was my understanding but, as I said, I’ve made little effort to stay up-to-date WRT what has been an unsettled situations my entire life. This was not the first time I heard the idea that “the Palestinians” ought to be considered separately from “Hamas.” As tho I were to disavow any relation to W’s war on Iraq. No, I didn’t vote for him, but it was my government/country taking the action. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/516 "2023-10-23T14:04:44Z")
It looks like the conflict has pushed the Senate to fill some vacant ambassador posts in the area. I almost said it’s “surprising” that they’ve been delayed this long, but at least it’s happening now. > **[Senate acts on 'unprecedented' lack of U.S. ambassadors, spurred by...](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1205700419/israel-us-ambassador-senate-middle-east)** > > The lack of a U.S. ambassador in Israel hobbles the Biden administration's ability to pursue its goals. The U.S. also lacks ambassadors in Egypt and other countries in the region. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/517 "2023-10-23T14:05:58Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > This was not the first time I heard the idea that “the Palestinians” ought to be considered separately from “Hamas.” As tho I were to disavow any relation to W’s war on Iraq. No, I didn’t vote for him, but it was my government/country taking the action. There _is_ a valid distinction to be made between Hamas and Palestinians in that Hamas are militants and therefore combatants while Palestinians are a whole people, some of whom are combatants but many of whom are civilians. But it is true that at the moment Hamas does represent the Palestinian people of Gaza, whether they like it or not - just like how Trump represented Americans, whether or not they had a #notmypresident bumper sticker. I’ll also point out that many of the same people who are quick to correctly point out that Hamas != Palestinians will then quote Ben Gvir and say “Look what _Israel_ wants”, ignoring that Hamas is _far_ more popular among Palestinians than Ben Gvir’s party is among Israelis (4 out of 120 ministers). ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/518 "2023-10-23T14:11:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@What\_Exit](#): > > > > I’ve not been seeing people getting cancelled. Not sure where you’re seeing this. > > One example: > > [Harvard letter: Law students who took anti-Israel stance lose job offers - BBC News](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67152271.amp) That wasn’t just criticism of the sort that @liirogue felt should be a non-issue. The students whose job offers were rescinded were associated with a letter that supported Palestinians, but also blamed Israel entirely for the Hamas attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/519 "2023-10-23T14:27:12Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > That wasn’t just criticism of the sort that @liirogue felt should be a non-issue Right. There are many examples like that - here’s another one: [https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/us/stanford-instructor-jewish-holocaust-comments-reaj/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/us/stanford-instructor-jewish-holocaust-comments-reaj/index.html) An instructor (apparently an aide of some kind?) was teaching a class in Stanford, they had Jewish students get up and stand in the corner before berating them and lecturing them about how “this is what you do to Palestinians”. Obviously that goes far beyond simple statements of support for Palestinian civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/520 "2023-10-23T15:02:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’ll also point out that many of the same people who are quick to correctly point out that Hamas != Palestinians will then quote Ben Gvir and say “Look what _Israel_ wants”, ignoring that Hamas is _far_ more popular among Palestinians than Ben Gvir’s party is among Israelis (4 out of 120 ministers). More Israeli Jews believe in annexing the West Bank (40%) than striving for peace based on a two-state solution (35%). [[Mitvim, 2023 poll](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians)] Netanyahu’s Likud party has been in power for all but two of the last 14 years (one of those two years they weren’t in power was a party even further to the right). [From Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud#Ideological_positions): > [@](#): > > Likud has historically espoused opposition to Palestinian statehood and support of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. > > … > > Likud, under Netanyahu, has intentionally propped up the rule of Hamas in Gaza as a means of dividing the Palestinians politically and using Palestinian extremism drawing the peace process away from a two-state solution. > > In the 2019 election, Likud was widely criticized as a “racist party” after scaremongering anti-Arab rhetoric by its members as well as Netanyahu who claimed minority Arabs and Palestinians in Israel as “threats” and “enemies”. There hasn’t been a Palestinian election in Gaza for 17 years, when the majority of the population weren’t even born. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/521 "2023-10-23T15:04:33Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > There hasn’t been a Palestinian election in Gaza for 17 years, when the majority of the population weren’t even born. Sounds like a Coalition should be getting built by the UN to remove Hamas from power and provide the Palestinians a free election. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/522 "2023-10-23T15:04:36Z")
Nvm, misread the cite ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/523 "2023-10-23T15:13:27Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > More Israeli Jews believe in annexing the West Bank (40%) than striving for peace based on a two-state solution (35%). [[Mitvim, 2023 poll](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians)] Palestinians even more overwhelmingly oppose a two state solution. [Gallup poll](https://news.gallup.com/poll/512828/palestinians-lack-faith-biden-two-state-solution.aspx#:~:text=Younger%20Palestinians%20no%20longer%20support,Palestinians%20aged%2046%20and%20older.) What’s your point? Does that mean Hamas _does_ represent them? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/524 "2023-10-23T15:14:52Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > That wasn’t just criticism of the sort that @liirogue felt should be a non-issue. The students whose job offers were rescinded were associated with a letter that supported Palestinians, but also blamed Israel entirely for the Hamas attacks. Mostly agreed. Their letter, from the excerpts I’ve read of it, was pretty obnoxious. But two points: 1. @liirogue wrote: > [@liirogue](#): > > I’m seeing a lot of stories about people getting cancelled or fired for making remarks that are critical of Israel. The few that I read seemed like it should be a non-issue - for example, being critical of Israel’s blockade of aid supplies, cutting off water, etc. But the backlash claims that they’re being antisemitic. Am I misunderstanding what’s being said, or are these remarks in some way actually antisemitic? Or is the knee-jerk reaction that anything that criticizes Israel/the Israeli government comes from a place of antisemitism? The Harvard letter is an example of “misunderstanding what’s being said”: it’s actually antisemitic to lay the blame for the hundreds of murdered Israelis at Israel’s feet. (It’s also anti-Arab, inasmuch as it denies moral agency to the specific Palestinian Arabs who committed the atrocities). 1. @What_Exit said he hadn’t “been seeing people getting cancelled.” This is undoubtedly an example of people getting cancelled, even if it’s over something pretty antisemitic. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/525 "2023-10-23T15:30:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What’s your point? Just that through opinion polls and electoral history, it would appear that the plurality of Israeli Jews favor the elimination of Palestine on the West Bank, rather than peace based on a two-state solution. From the opinion poll, 30% of Israeli Jews would like to annex the West Bank and “establish a single state with privileged status for Jews”, which effectively sounds like apartheid. That’s a much higher proportion favoring extremist views than the “4 out of 120 ministers” your post suggested. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/526 "2023-10-23T15:31:11Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > This was not the first time I heard the idea that “the Palestinians” ought to be considered separately from “Hamas.” As tho I were to disavow any relation to W’s war on Iraq. No, I didn’t vote for him, but it was my government/country taking the action. You did, however, get chances to vote against his party after that war started; and all along could protest against it without risking being jailed or shot just for publicly objecting to it. The Gazans haven’t gotten to vote since 2006 (at which point most of the current population were too young to vote or not yet born) and apparently anyone who protests Hamas’ being in charge and/or what they’re doing is at genuine risk. So yes, Hamas is the elected government of Gaza; but nevertheless not all the Gazans should be held responsible for how Hamas behaves. (Plus which, quite a lot of them are too young to be held responsible for much of anything.) None of which means that Israel doesn’t have to do something about Hamas; clearly nobody else is going to. But I very much hope that they do their best to remember that many of the Gazans are also victims of Hamas. It is sometimes necessary to do a wrong thing, when all the alternatives are even more wrong; but it’s important to remember that no matter how necessary it is it’s still wrong, so that it will be stopped as soon as it’s no longer necessary. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/527 "2023-10-23T15:31:55Z")
Quoting me does not make your bad example a good example. That just sounds like you were misinterpreting what I said in response to another post. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/528 "2023-10-23T15:34:56Z")
Then I’m genuinely not sure what you mean, when you said that you hadn’t been seeing people get canceled. Did you mean you’d only seen people getting canceled over stuff that was actually antisemitic? or something else? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/529 "2023-10-23T15:45:45Z")
He mentioned people getting cancelled over non-issues. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/530 "2023-10-23T15:47:43Z")
Ah. I thought you were saying you hadn’t seen people getting cancelled at all, so couldn’t judge whether they were non-issues or not. Sorry for my confusion. I’m not generally a fan of college students getting cancelled for taking regrettable positions in college, but that’s another conversation. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/531 "2023-10-23T15:48:38Z")
Agreed and thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/532 "2023-10-23T15:52:38Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > From the opinion poll, 30% of Israeli Jews would like to annex the West Bank and “establish a single state with privileged status for Jews”, which effectively sounds like apartheid. That’s a much higher proportion favoring extremist views than the “4 out of 120 ministers” your post suggested. And from the Gallup opinion poll, something like 80% of Palestinians oppose a two state solution. Considering the fate that Jews have suffered in every Arab majority country, that’s also a very extremist stance. Again, if we aren’t going to conflate Gazans - even Gazans who want to see all Jews gone from Israel but aren’t going to personally fire rockets to accomplish this - with Hamas, then we shouldn’t conflate Israelis with Ben Gvir. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=23)