# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 222
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2025, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4558 "2025-06-12T13:04:34Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Reminder that you’ve provided exactly 0 evidence for this quite extraordinary claim. …a reminder that I _have_ actually. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2025, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4559 "2025-06-12T13:41:37Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > The US is also a democracy with a functioning free press. Does it follow from this that all statements coming from the White House Press Office should be regarded as trustworthy and factually accurate? This is an excellent point. A murderous death cult is going to play fast and loose with the truth. But professional grifters and liars, like this White House, and like the Netanyahu government, eat, drink, and breathe lies. No one lies more than professional political liars. The truth is entirely meaningless to them. Hamas lies, but it’s literally impossible to lie more than the likes of Trump and Netanyahu. Maybe Hamas has some liars that are their equal. I’ll note that murder and terrorism are still worse than lying (in case that isn’t obvious). ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2025, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4560 "2025-06-12T16:02:15Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Was that a serious question or a gotcha attempt? Do you really think that the Trump Admin is even in a similar _ballpark_ to Hamas? As an across-the-board moral judgment, no. In terms of how likely any given statement coming from them is a lie, yes. It would be mathematically impossible for anyone to be a LOT less reliable than Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2025, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4561 "2025-06-12T16:18:22Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > As an across-the-board moral judgment, no. In terms of how likely any given statement coming from them is a lie, yes. It would be mathematically impossible for anyone to be a LOT less reliable than Trump Wow. I gotta say, that’s pretty wild to me. I feel like there’s a sense of scale that’s lost when we paint Trump as being as dishonest as humanly possible. And in a way, it makes sense that the scale is destroyed, because for a long time pre-Trump, the Zeitgeist had _already_ been that politicians lie about everything all of the time; how much further can you go? But I think that there’s a big gap between Trump and your standard pre-Trump truth bending politicians. And there’s an even bigger gap between Trump and people who get to lie with absolute impunity, like Vladimir Putin. Trump absolutely _wishes_ he could get away with lying like Putin does. And I think it’s pretty clear an organization like Hamas is in the same boat as Putin, not Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2025, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4562 "2025-06-12T16:24:22Z")
Trump tells outrageously transparent, obvious lies on a daily basis with, effectively, absolute impunity. The only difference between him and Putin is that the journalists and opposing politicians exposing his lies are, for now, allowed to operate openly in his own country, and that the voters could, theoretically, someday, decide to hold him and his party accountable. Those are important differences, of course, but in the short term they don’t seem to slow down the lying in the least. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2025, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4563 "2025-06-12T16:28:35Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Trump tells outrageously transparent, obvious lies on a daily basis with, effectively, absolute impunity. And yet, when you look at the actual lies told, both in scope and frequency, there’s really no comparison. Trump presents a twisted funhouse (or not-so-fun-house) mirror of reality and pretends it is legitimate while Putin operates in a Slavic Themed High Fantasy D&D campaign setting. There’s _really_ no comparison. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2025, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4564 "2025-06-12T16:49:29Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Wow. I gotta say, that’s pretty wild to me. Really? Not ten minutes ago I heard him live saying that the CA fires only got under control because “we” broke in and diverted the water that was impounded up north. Absolutely none of which was true, and was five months ago. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Trump tells outrageously transparent, obvious lies on a daily basis with, effectively, absolute impunity. Right. Trump told The Economist that he invented the phrase “prime the pump.” These lies might be less impactful than Hamas’ lies, but you literally cannot take a single thing he says without considering whether it’s a lie. Not so much as the weather (remember when it didn’t rain at his inauguration even though we all saw it?) @Thing.Fish is right. It might be physically and temporally impossible to lie more than Trump. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2025, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4565 "2025-06-12T16:57:15Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > @Thing.Fish is right. It might be physically and temporally impossible to lie more than Trump. I agree with this. And I’m astonished anyone but a trump fanatic would disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2025, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4566 "2025-06-12T17:51:38Z")
I don’t disagree with you about _how bad Trump is_; I disagree that _the scale stops there_. It goes _way_ further down, into what you guys apparently consider to be the depths of the underground, if you truly think Trump has already bottomed out. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2025, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4567 "2025-06-12T17:53:11Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I agree with this. And I’m astonished anyone but a trump fanatic would disagree. Right. Sure, there are plenty worse people than Trump, bad as he is. But no one lies more, or tells bigger lies, than Trump. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2025, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4568 "2025-06-12T17:57:18Z")
Right. There are lots of dimensions of badness. There are people who have murdered and raped more than Trump. I doubt there’s anyone who lies more consistently than Trump. And a lot of his lies aren’t little, harmless things. They are lies that get people deported and killed. They are lies that may take down our democracy. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2025, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4569 "2025-06-12T18:24:52Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s part of a greater pattern of behavior. You seemed to think that that standalone clip was sufficient. > [@](#): > > But if I posted a dozen or even ten dozen clips of Hasan Piker, Emma Vigeland, Sam Seder, or Anna Kasparian (in her specific case echoing the precise language of Elias Rodriguez’s manifesto, by the way)… I agree with certain points in the Unabomber manifesto. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t a murderous crazy dude. Want to tell us what specifically was problematic? > [@](#): > > … or any other far left type influencer being absolutely unhinged about October 7, that _still_ wouldn’t be enough to prove to you that this is a serious problem, would it? I haven’t seen anyone be unhinged about October 7th, but I’ll happily read any transcripts you have to share. I also wouldn’t be shocked if some idiot did espouse garbage about October 7th, and will happily condemn their rhetoric if it is of the nature you claim. Most of the stuff I’ve seen posted by you and other defenders of what the IDF is doing are not really about October 7th, but about subsequent actions by Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2025, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4570 "2025-06-13T21:13:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Denazification of Germany worked pretty well after WW2. Yes, but mainly because there was NOT the assumption that absolutely everyone who was a member of the Nazi party had committed war crimes and crimes against humanity. A lot of people felt forced to join and/or support just to keep their families alive. The numbers of Germans who were part of the war time government were too large to remove and still have a functioning society. [See here.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification) Not to mention completely ignored when a government sought advantage from using the skills of a former Nazi - both the US and USSR space programs were built by such scientists as Werner Von Braun who really should have suffered penalties for the horrors he inflicted on slave laborers during WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2025, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4571 "2025-06-13T21:22:59Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So yeah, when your view is that twisted, I think a dose of reality would do you good. > > Do I think it would make her change her mind? It depends. I think some people, like Jeremy Scahill, know _exactly_ how bad October 7 was, and they’re presenting it the way that they are in bad faith. I’d like to hope Greta is just someone who fell for that, because I used to like her; but it’s very possible that she is the same. …or else Greta just says “I’m here to relieve suffering and feed the hungry” because that was her main motivation all along. I’m not sure that you understand just how appalling the humanitarian situation appears to people outside the conflict. I don’t presume to know anyone’s views on a topic until they tell me or they make it clear they’re a member of a particular group with particular views. Being “leftist” doesn’t make the cut. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2025, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4572 "2025-06-13T23:28:33Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > …or else Greta just says “I’m here to relieve suffering and feed the hungry” because that was her main motivation all along. If that was truly the case, I suspect that she’d be on her way to Sudan, where 25 million people are without food; or Yemen, where thanks to Norman Finklestein’s nominees for the Nobel Peace Prize, the Houthis, 17 million people have no food; or any of the other places where millions of people are actually starving, and have been since before the war in Gaza started, and where they’ll continue to be ignored by the world long after this round of fighting is over. > [@Broomstick](#): > > I don’t presume to know anyone’s views on a topic until they tell me or they make it clear they’re a member of a particular group with particular views. Being “leftist” doesn’t make the cut. Does that also apply to right wingers? Do you assume nothing about someone’s particular beliefs if you see that they’re wearing a MAGA hat? Or do you assume they’re racist, islamophobic, transphobic, and so on? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2025, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4573 "2025-06-14T02:58:39Z")
Wearing a MAGA (or other group or political party garb) is, in fact, a statement on the part of the person wearing it. So yes, by wearing it they are telling me something about themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2025, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4574 "2025-06-14T04:44:27Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Wearing a MAGA (or other group or political party garb) is, in fact, a statement on the part of the person wearing it Believe it or not, chanting “Crush Zionism” at a protest days after October 7 is _also_ a statement on the part of the person shouting that. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2025, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4575 "2025-06-14T10:49:51Z")
If some particular person (celebrity or otherwise) did that I am unaware of that. Mainly because I can’t keep track of every single thing that happens in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2025, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4576 "2025-06-14T13:37:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If some particular person (celebrity or otherwise) did that I am unaware of that. That would be Greta, the person under discussion here. I linked a couple of articles about her doing that above. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Mainly because I can’t keep track of every single thing that happens in the world. Well, I’m always happy to fight ignorance! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4577 "2025-06-17T18:21:50Z")
Another report of IDF forces killing civilians awaiting aid. It remains nearly impossible to determine the truth of these events. [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-tank-shelling-kills-45-people-awaiting-aid-trucks-gaza-ministry-says-2025-06-17/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-tank-shelling-kills-45-people-awaiting-aid-trucks-gaza-ministry-says-2025-06-17/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=221) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=223)