# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 223
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2025, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4578 "2025-06-19T03:24:18Z")
> [@Gaza Flash Update](#): > > According to MoH, on 17 June, 59 people were killed and over 200 were injured among people trying to access food supplies, **bringing the overall casualty count within this context to 397 fatalities and more than 3,031 injuries.** > **[Humanitarian Situation Update #297 | Gaza Strip | United Nations Office for...](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/humanitarian-situation-update-297-gaza-strip)** > > Amid starvation and a growing likelihood of famine, attacks on civilians attempting to access food supplies continue, resulting in mass casualties. …bolding mine. Its been difficult to keep up with how many people the IDF are responsible for killing or injuring in mass casualty events where Palestinians have been trying to get food from primarily the so-called “Gaza Humanitarian Foundation.” Because they are happening so often. A massacre or two every single day so far. But we have a number now: as of yesterday, it’s **397 dead** and **3,031 injuries**. People on the ground describe it as “Squid Games.” They have to walk, often run, for miles, risking getting shot if you raise your head. If you are lucky, you make it through and get greeted by American mercenaries and pepper spray. It isn’t as if the IDF and the GHF are uniquely bad at humanitarian relief efforts. This is all entirely by design. > [@+972 Magazine](#): > > But the mass expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza, long referred to in Israeli parlance as “transfer,” is already underway. Not in some distant future. Right now. > … > So how is the transfer being carried out at this moment? Through [starvation](https://www.972mag.com/gazan-children-starving-israeli-siege/) and the [destruction of vital infrastructure](https://www.972mag.com/gaza-water-crisis-on-the-brink/). Through the weaponization of “humanitarian aid.” Through relentless, systematic bombing. Many of these tactics have been reported in the media, but the “food distribution method” remains one of the least intuitive. It is crucial to understand: what may appear to be a “tragic logistical failure” is, in fact, a deliberate strategy > … > instead of hundreds of food distribution centers operating across the Gaza Strip by experienced international organizations, Israel set up only four centers for over two million people. That is not how to meet the needs of a population after many months of devastation and deprivation. It’s how you starve and strip survivors of their human dignity. > … > Instead, the goal is to promote “moving the population” southward, ideally into the “concentration zones.” Since this constitutes a crime against humanity, Israel employed concealment tactics: first expelling established aid groups that could provide aid efficiently, then outsourcing distribution to opaque entities like the U.S.-backed [Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF)](https://www.972mag.com/gaza-social-collapse-criminal-gangs/). Much more at the link. > **[The planned expulsion of Gaza's population is already underway - +972 Magazine](https://www.972mag.com/gaza-expulsion-aid-delivery/)** > > Israel is conditioning aid to force Gazans into ‘concentration zones.’ This scheme is stalling, but that only portends greater brutality. And these “concentration zones” keep getting smaller. From the latest flash update again: > [@Gaza Flash Update](#): > > Since 18 March, the Israeli military issued 42 displacement orders, placing about 279.5 square kilometres under displacement orders (76 per cent of the Gaza Strip). If you are interested, the Database for Palestine maintain a database of all of the displacement maps. Most of Gaza are no-go zones for Palestinians now. > **[Cartographic Resistance](https://gazamaps.com/)** > > Israel uses maps as weapons. We study those maps. More news from the ground: > [@Flash Update](#): > > The pediatric caseload is overwhelming; Health Cluster partners data indicate that children account for 23 per cent of amputations, 26 per cent of spinal cord injuries, 33 per cent of traumatic brain injuries, and 70 per cent of surgical burn cases. > [@](#): > > The Health Cluster warns that “all persons with pre-existing disabilities, older adults, and individuals with impairments related to chronic pain or non-communicable diseases are at risk of deterioration, contributing to long-term disability and increasing the long-term costs of and demand for rehabilitation.” > [@](#): > > The United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) [warns](https://x.com/UNFPA_ASRO/status/1934228315121799247) of a maternal health crisis in Gaza, where “women are starving, giving birth without clean water, hygiene, or medical care.” > … > UNFPA [reports](https://www.unfpa.org/news/famine-looms-gaza-pregnant-women-and-newborns-face-life-threatening-health-risks) that one in three pregnancies is high-risk, and one in five newborns is born preterm or underweight, requiring specialist care that is increasingly unavailable. > [@](#): > > WFP’s latest [market monitor](https://docs.wfp.org/api/documents/WFP-0000166964/download/) warned of an alarming deterioration in dietary diversity across Gaza, with the population’s food intake considered dangerously imbalanced and severely deficient in essential nutrients, reaching the worst levels since October 2023. > [@](#): > > Between March and May, proxy rates of acute malnutrition have more than doubled: in Gaza city the rates multiplied by 1.7, in Khan Younis by 2.2, in Deir al Balah by 2.8, and in North Gaza by 2. No data is currently available for Rafah, which remains fully under displacement orders. This worsening trend is further reflected in the number of newly identified cases of acute malnutrition, which increased from 2,068 in February to 5,452 in May. Furthermore, the severity of detected cases has also increased; in May, 13 per cent of newly identified cases suffered from severe acute malnutrition (SAM), compared to 11.5 per cent in March. The latest update is worryingly missing information about what is happening in the north. The last update (7 days ago) said “There are no hospitals functional, even partially, in North Gaza.” One assumes this remains to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2025, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4579 "2025-06-26T14:18:14Z")
Israeli minister says no more aid should be allowed into Gaza: > **[Iran delivered ‘heavy slap to US’s face’, says Khamenei as he threatens...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/jun/26/donald-trump-strikes-iran-nuclear-programme-intelligence-israel-latest-updates-news?CMP=share_btn_url&page=with%3Ablock-685d02fd8f08419b377548cf#block-685d02fd8f08419b377548cf)** > > In his first comments since the ceasefire, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said the US ‘gained no achievement’ when it joined the war with Israel against Tehran ---
**Author:** ![BleizDu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@BleizDu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BleizDu)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2025, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4580 "2025-06-26T16:00:50Z")
It’s logical in an insane way. I guess, yeah, if everybody dies, “hamas” won’t be able to control whatever. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4581 "2025-06-27T11:45:56Z")
IDF soldiers have told Haaretz they were ordered to shoot at unarmed Gazan civilians waiting for humanitarian aid: > **[IDF soldiers ordered to shoot deliberately at unarmed Gazans waiting for...](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-06-27/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-soldiers-ordered-to-shoot-deliberately-at-unarmed-gazans-waiting-for-humanitarian-aid/00000197-ad8e-de01-a39f-ffbe33780000?utm_source=App_Share&utm_medium=iOS_Native)** > > \*\*\* This Israeli government, and this IDF, are hopelessly morally compromised, and must end this war. They’re not capable of fighting with any sort of moral decency outside of Israeli territory. The US must stop supporting this Israeli government and this IDF. The current Israeli-run “aid” agency also appears complicit in these atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4582 "2025-06-27T12:08:05Z")
Not wanting to register and get yet more spam, does anyone have access to the full article to confirm it doesn’t say anything further down that contradicts what it says in the news alert? Although the comments, weirdly, are publicly available. And include stuff like the below, so yeah, this probably says what it looks like: > Why is Haaretz publishing this? It increases the hatred towards Israel, already demonized by the whole world, especially by influential young Americans? > > Haaretz should have kept quiet about the horrific actions of the IDF. You also have to remember this could lead to far more antisemitism outside of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4583 "2025-06-27T12:15:45Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Not wanting to register and get yet more spam, does anyone have access to the full article to confirm it doesn’t say anything further down that contradicts what it says in the news alert? The article does not contradict the news alert. It’s extremely damning. > [@](#): > > “It’s a killing field,” one soldier said. “Where I was stationed, between one and five people[were killed](https://archive.ph/o/9CyTK/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-06-17/ty-article/.premium/over-50-palestinians-killed-by-idf-near-gaza-aid-hub-hamas-run-health-ministry-says/00000197-7d76-d717-a1df-ff76484f0000) every day. They’re treated like a hostile force – no crowd-control measures, no tear gas – just live fire with everything imaginable: heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, mortars. Then, once the center opens, the shooting stops, and they know they can approach. Our form of communication is gunfire.” > > The soldier added, “We open fire early in the morning if someone tries to get in line from a few hundred meters away, and sometimes we just charge at them from close range. But there’s no danger to the forces.” According to him, “I’m not aware of a single instance of return fire. There’s no enemy, no weapons.” He also said the activity in his area of service is referred to as Operation Salted Fish – the name of the Israeli version of the children’s game “Red light, green light”. > [@](#): > > In recent weeks, the number of fatalities near food distribution areas has risen sharply – 57 on June 11, 59 on June 17, and around 50 on June 24, according to [Gaza’s Health Ministry](https://archive.ph/o/9CyTK/https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2025-06-16/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israel-shifting-focus-to-iran-front-does-not-mean-we-can-forget-about-gaza/00000197-7520-d717-a1df-f770531d0000). In response, a discussion was held at Southern Command, where it emerged that troops had begun dispersing crowds using artillery shells. > > “They talk about using artillery on a junction full of civilians as if it’s normal,” said a military source who attended the meeting. “An entire conversation about whether it’s right or wrong to use artillery, without even asking why that weapon was needed in the first place. What concerns everyone is whether it’ll hurt our legitimacy to keep operating in Gaza. The moral aspect is practically nonexistent. No one stops to ask why dozens of civilians looking for food are being killed every day.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4584 "2025-06-27T12:32:31Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It was a set-up for whatever Israel has planned for the next stage of what every reputable human rights agency are calling it: a genocide. That stage is already well underway. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4585 "2025-06-27T13:07:23Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > That stage is already well underway. …I mean: I called it a very long time ago. But there have been so many threads on Gaza that I’ve participated, and I think its this one that I’m not allowed to call it that: however every reputable human rights agency are calling it that for a while, and I think I’m okay to say that here. And it’s frustrating that the Palestinians have been saying that this has been happening for _weeks_. As I said on June the 19th: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > People on the ground describe it as “Squid Games.” They have to walk, often run, for miles, risking getting shot if you raise your head. If you are lucky, you make it through and get greeted by American mercenaries and pepper spray. There isn’t just testimony from people on the ground of it happening. There is video. But it isn’t until it’s filtered through a certain lens that people start to believe it. This isn’t a dig at anyone in this thread because it’s much bigger than here. The reality is that people just won’t believe it. As an aside: the Palestinian reporters on the ground have been _heroes_. Ahmad Saad killed 3 hours ago. > There is footage of the aftermath of this killing (not on this link) : it’s as grizzly as you can imagine. Hanan Eqelan killed with her family a couple of days ago. > Estimates range from 180 to 230 journalists have been killed depending on how “journalist” is defined. Many of them killed not in the field while reporting: but like Hanan Eqelan, targeted in their home with their families. Deliberate assassinations. And the silence from much of the international journalist has been deafening. One of the notable exceptions is the Chief Foreign Correspondent for Fox News of all places, Trey Yingst. He regularly speaks out in support of journalists in Gaza. It’s shameful that the more “liberal” news outlets don’t do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4586 "2025-06-27T14:36:55Z")
…from the Gaza Health Ministry, numbers of dead and injured from people trying to get food from the GHF since they started: (Twitter link sorry) > > > Sharon Nadeem @SharonNadeem It matches the Haaretz reporting. 549 dead. 4000 injured. On average 30 people killed a day. And there is no reason to believe that’s going to stop. On top of that we don’t really know what is happening in Northern Gaza any more. Rafah has been [flattened](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-flattens-rafah-ruins-gazans-fear-plan-herd-them-there-2025-04-28/). The population have been herded into “concentration zones.” Over 80% of Gaza has been declared “combat zones” and are effectively no-go-zones. The UN used to have 400 food distribution points. Now thats down to four operated by the GHF. (Although I’ve heard reports that some UN trucks have been getting in, and the World Central Kitchen have started very limited operations again as well. But it is still nowhere near the levels that are required. The latest Gaza Flash Update: > [@](#): > > - Gaza’s water crisis has reached critical levels, with only 40 per cent of drinking water facilities functional and fuel shortages pushing water systems to near collapse. By mid-June, 93 per cent of households faced water insecurity, exacerbating thirst and public health risks. > … > - Families in Gaza are risking their lives to access food, with nearly daily mass casualties reported as people attempt to reach supplies. Most families survive on just one nutritiously poor meal per day, while adults routinely skip meals to prioritize children, the elderly, and the ill amid deepening hunger and desperation. > … > With no safe place to go, many people have sought refuge in overcrowded displacement sites, makeshift shelters, damaged buildings, streets and open areas. People have been confined to ever-shrinking spaces, with 82.6 per cent of the Gaza Strip now within Israeli-militarized zones or placed under displacement orders since 18 March. > [@](#): > > Mass casualties have continued to be reported daily over the past 30 days, after non-UN militarized distribution sites started to operate in Gaza, as people approached or gathered near these sites or waited on routes designated by the Israeli authorities for the UN to collect trucks carrying aid. Between 13 and 16 June, the Armed Conflict Location and Event Data (ACLED) [recorded](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/palestine-expert-comment-violence-around-aid-distribution-gaza-surges-israels-campaign-continues-despite-israel-iran-escalation) over 20 incidents “where Israeli forces targeted civilians around aid distribution.” This here is important because the GHF are casting doubt on the reports of shootings around aid sites. Here is the website for the ACLED, along with the methodology: > [@ACLED](#): > > . First, due to the complexity of the situation in Israel and Palestine, researchers working on this area are provided with training on the region’s conflict trends and media environments. The data are further reviewed by management with specialized knowledge of the region’s conflict trends and media environment. Both researcher and reviewer assess the likeliness of a report and whether additional reading or discussion is necessary. Second, ACLED uses a range of diverse sources and triangulates information to form a more complete picture. This diverse source list – both in terms of country of origin and type of source – is one of the main methods that ACLED uses to counteract media bias and to fill in gaps resulting from censorship. For Israel and Palestine in particular, national sources are split between both countries roughly equally, with five sources originating from Palestine, and four from Israel. When sources provide conflicting details, researchers defer to reports by international organizations and media agencies which have proven to be less biased in the past. If there is still doubt in terms of casualties and the nature of events, then this is mentioned in the notes, and the event is coded based on the version of events reported by the most sources – ideally using a combination of pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian sources. > **[How does ACLED source events in Israel/Palestine? - ACLED](https://acleddata.com/knowledge-base/israel-palestine-sourcing-profile/)** > > Published on: | Last updated:  Each week, ACLED researchers review dozens of English and Arabic language sources to code political violence and demonstrations across Israel and Palestine. The media environment in… More from the Flash Update: > [@](#): > > Just a few days ago more than 60 people were killed and hundreds injured when a tank opened fire on a crowd of people waiting for food trucks to arrive. Some people have also been killed or injured by armed gangs, including those operating in areas close to Israeli forces. Those trying to protect aid convoys are often themselves targeted by Israeli forces.” > [@](#): > > On 24 June, ICRC [reported](https://x.com/ICRC_ilot/status/1937550129646416045) that its 60-bed field hospital in Rafah has had to activate its mass casualty procedures 20 times since 27 May, indicating that “the scale and frequency of these incidents is an alarming testament to the intolerable dangers civilians face as they attempt to access assistance.” > [@](#): > > Between 10 and 21 June, the Gaza Strip experienced five fiber-optic cable cuts, causing a complete internet outage and widespread mobile service interruptions. This has severely hindered life-saving humanitarian operations and the ability of people to access critical information and essential services. > [@](#): > > The situation is further worsened by the destruction of 50 per cent of hospital laboratories and 60 per cent of primary care laboratories, which rendered 514 laboratory devices non-functional > … > As of 15 June, a total of 18,809 children under five years of age have been admitted for treatment of acute malnutrition, including 5,486 in May – within a population of children where wasting was non-existent 20 months ago. Of the nearly 19,000 children admitted in 2025, 2,558 suffered from severe acute malnutrition (SAM), the most lethal form of malnutrition. Much much more at the link. > **[Humanitarian Situation Update #300 | Gaza Strip | United Nations Office for...](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/humanitarian-situation-update-300-gaza-strip)** > > Gaza's water crisis has reached critical levels, with only 40 per cent of drinking water facilities functional and fuel shortages pushing water systems to near collapse. By mid-June, 93 per cent of households faced water insecurity, exacerbating... ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4587 "2025-06-27T14:54:27Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The article does not contradict the news alert. It’s extremely damning. Is it? The article uses very dramatic language, but even Haaretz doesn’t make the claim we have seen repeated over and over and over here on the Dope and elsewhere: that people are being murdered while waiting for food. If you’re holding a military position, and a huge group of people is coming towards you, and you fire warning shots but they don’t stop, what the fuck are you _supposed_ to do? I guess they could fall back, fold up the aid distribution site, and leave since they couldn’t secure the site. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4588 "2025-06-27T14:57:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If you’re holding a military position, and a huge group of people is coming towards you, and you fire warning shots but they don’t stop, what the fuck are you _supposed_ to do? Stop creating the situation that leads to that in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4589 "2025-06-27T15:01:24Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Stop creating the situation that leads to that in the first place?. Yeah, I did raise that possibility: > [@Babale](#): > > I guess they could fall back, fold up the aid distribution site, and leave since they couldn’t secure the site. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4590 "2025-06-27T15:04:09Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > The article does not contradict the news alert. It’s extremely damning. > > Is it? The article uses very dramatic language, but even Haaretz doesn’t make the claim we have seen repeated over and over and over here on the Dope and elsewhere: that people are being murdered while waiting for food. > > If you’re holding a military position, and a huge group of people is coming towards you, and you fire warning shots but they don’t stop, what the fuck are you _supposed_ to do? > > I guess they could fall back, fold up the aid distribution site, and leave since they couldn’t secure the site. That’s not what the article says is happening. It says the army is firing on people approaching the food distribution site, or lining up to get to it when it opens. It explicitly says the soldiers are not at risk. And it says the soldiers are calling it “red light/green light” (some other name for the Hebrew version of the game) where “it” calls out whether you can go, and anyone who moves too soon or too late is “out”. Only in this version, those people are dead. And a key point of the game is that typically, most of the kids slip up and are called “out”, and the only way to win (to get to the winning point) is to push the limits. The analogy is pretty clear. You’ll starve if you don’t get to the food quickly when it’s available, and if you skip up trying to do that, you’ll be killed. Sounds pretty close to murder to me. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4591 "2025-06-27T15:05:14Z")
Perhaps I misunderstood, but I took that as a “let them eat cake” response. I mean, give up whatever this approach is, which isn’t working and has been roundly condemned by the various groups expert at distributing aid, and let the people who know what they’re doing handle it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4592 "2025-06-27T15:07:54Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And it says the soldiers are calling it “red light/green light” (some other name for the Hebrew version of the game) where “it” calls out whether you can go, and anyone who moves too soon or too late is “out”. Only in this version, those people are dead. And a key point of the game is that typically, most of the kids slip up and are called “out”, and the only way to win (to get to the winning point) is to push the limits. The analogy is pretty clear. You’ll starve if you don’t get to the food quickly when it’s available, and if you skip up trying to do that, you’ll be killed. > > Sounds pretty close to murder to me. Sounds exactly like mass murder to me. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4593 "2025-06-27T15:11:48Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If you’re holding a military position, and a huge group of people is coming towards you, and you fire warning shots but they don’t stop, what the fuck are you _supposed_ to do? Normal crowd control measures. Non-lethal ones. Rubber bullets, water cannons, barriers etc. > [@OldOlds](#): > > Stop creating the situation that leads to that in the first place? And yeah, this. The combination of few distribution points, short and unpredictable opening times, and an unwillingness to let people wait nearby creates this situation. None of that is necessary. The people in charge put IDF soldiers in this position with no options other than lethal force, and then tell them to use it. And then there’s this: > [@](#): > > ## **Contractors as sheriffs** > > According to accounts from commanders and fighters, the IDF was supposed to maintain a safe distance from Palestinian population areas and food distribution points. However, the actions of the forces on the ground do not align with the operational plans. > > “Today, any private contractor working in Gaza with engineering equipment receives 5,000 [roughly $1,500] shekels for every house they demolish,” said a veteran fighter. “They’re making a fortune. From their perspective, any moment where they don’t [demolish houses](https://archive.ph/o/9CyTK/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-04-09/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israel-preparing-to-turn-rafah-one-fifth-of-gaza-into-part-of-border-buffer-zone/00000196-19e6-d78d-a1de-1dff20590000) is a loss of money, and the forces have to secure their work. The contractors, who act like a kind of sheriff, demolish wherever they want along the entire front.” > > As a result, the fighter added, the contractors’ demolition campaign brings them, along with their relatively small security details, close to distribution points or along the routes used by aid trucks. > > In order [for the contractors] to protect themselves, a shooting incident breaks out, and people are killed," he said. “These are areas where Palestinians are allowed to be – we’re the ones who moved closer and decided [they] endangered us. So, for a contractor to make another 5,000 shekels and take down a house, it’s deemed acceptable to kill people who are only looking for food.” Killing people because contractors chose to put themselves in danger in order to make a buck. Again, they create the situation that requires a lethal response. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4594 "2025-06-27T15:12:47Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > That’s not what the article says is happening. It says the army is firing on people approaching the food distribution site, or lining up to get to it when it opens. It explicitly says the soldiers are not at risk. Because the area surrounding the food site _is not open to the public_ when the site isn’t distributing food. And after soldiers signal that this is a combat zone not open to civilians by firing warning shots, and people keep approaching them anyways, I have no idea how you or the article can determine that the soldiers or aid workers are not under threat in that situation. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > And it says the soldiers are calling it “red light/green light” (some other name for the Hebrew version of the game) where “it” calls out whether you can go, and anyone who moves too soon or too late is “out”. 🙄 The fact that (an anonymous source claims that) some 18 year olds employ some gallows humor when under incredibly damning situations is certainly not unique to Israel. I doubt you can find one army in the world where enlisted troops don’t make those kinds of jokes. It’s hardly evidence of murder. > [@OldOlds](#): > > Perhaps I misunderstood, but I took that as a “let them eat cake” response. It’s not something I advocate for; I think they should create more aid distribution sites and expand the program. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4595 "2025-06-27T15:14:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I have no idea how you or the article can determine that the soldiers or aid workers are not under threat in that situation Because the article claims that soldiers said exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4596 "2025-06-27T15:17:43Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Because the article claims that soldiers said exactly that It said that a soldier said he didn’t personally come under fire. There are reported injuries from soldiers outside the site, so clearly, his personal experience doesn’t line up with everyone’s. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4597 "2025-06-27T15:21:00Z")
The article is really pretty damning. I hope they let normal aid distribution groups who have experience distributing aid without routinely killing people back into Gaza. And i hope there’s a fair investigation of this whole sick exercise in Israel, with real consequences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=222) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=224)