# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 228
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2025, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4678 "2025-07-11T11:10:07Z")
I heard about that on the radio the other day. And Netanyahu knows full well that no other country will take them, so it amounts to a permanent refugee camp. I’m getting a strange sense of irony wash over me… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2025, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4679 "2025-07-11T11:19:11Z")
It will be the biggest, bestest concentration camp ever! ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2025, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4680 "2025-07-11T12:31:52Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > so it amounts to a permanent refugee camp. …no. Jabalia was what amounted to a “permanent refugee camp.” Khan Yunis Camp. Rafah Camp. Al-Shati. Nuseirat. Bureij. Maghazi. Deir al-Balah. There isn’t much left of them any more. The most appropriate word to be using here IMHO is _concentration camp_. Its a prison. Once you are in, you won’t be allowed out. And if you are outside of the camp, you will be treated as a terrorist. Israel are already refusing to allow in fuel, water, tents, shelter, baby formula, medical supplies, feminine hygiene products. They are only allowing in a tiny _fraction_ of the amount of food needed. I can’t imagine conditions in this “camp” being much better. It’s a holding pattern while they wait for other countries to agree to take the Palestinians in. Its just that…I don’t think anyone will take them. Perhaps if America offers up a big enough bribe. But this is the endgame. They’ve run out of ideas. They will kill at least 100 people a day, as they have been doing for the last year and a half, as they try and herd people into this camp. And things aren’t looking much better over on the West Bank. Reports on the ground tonight that the tanks are moving in on Nasser Hospital. Getting news out of Gaza right now that they’ve had to stop admitting patients. As bad as people imagine things are in Gaza, the are orders of magnitude worse. And it’s entirely man-made. It can stop right now. Humanitarian aid is lined up by the truckload ready to come in. Israel just has to let it. The latest Flash Update from three days ago: > **[Humanitarian Situation Update #304 | Gaza Strip | United Nations Office for...](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/humanitarian-situation-update-304-gaza-strip)** > > In Gaza, strikes on people sheltering in schools and tents and those seeking food, water and other assistance continue to be reported, resulting in mass casualties. > [@](#): > > - In Gaza, strikes on people sheltering in schools and tents and those seeking food, water and other assistance continue to be reported, resulting in mass casualties. > - Hospitals face imminent shutdown as fuel stocks run out, following a total ban on fuel entry for about 130 days. > - Nearly one in three people are going entire days without eating and more people are at risk of starvation, a new assessment finds. > - First responders, health workers, and aid workers continue to deliver food and other assistance under intolerable conditions, facing hunger, water scarcity and threats to their personal safety – just like everyone else in Gaza. > - Older persons face extreme risks amid ongoing hostilities, often left without protection, essential support, or access to necessities for survival. > - Water scarcity is deepening due to the lack of fuel, spare parts for repairs, ongoing insecurity, and the inaccessibility of most water and sanitation facilities. > [@](#): > > With no fuel having entered Gaza for over four months, the UN Chief warned that "the last lifelines for survival are being cut off,” affecting the functioning of incubators, ambulances, water purification and the delivery of humanitarian assistance. > [@](#): > > On 2 July, a renowned cardiologist and director of the Indonesian Hospital, Dr. Marwan Al Sultan, was killed when a residential building in Gaza city was hit, reportedly killing the doctor along with his wife, sister, daughter, and son-in-law. On 2 July, Healthcare Workers Watch – Palestine [reported](https://healthcareworkerswatch.org/press-releases/israeli-airstrike-kills-renowned-cardiologist-in-gaza/) that the doctor was the 70th health-care worker killed by Israeli forces over a 50-day period. On 5 July, an obstetrics and gynaecology consultant was reportedly killed, along with his three children, when their tent was hit in Al Mawasi, west of Khan Younis. > [@](#): > > Following his fourth visit to Gaza, the Deputy Executive Director and Chief Operating Officer of the World Food Programme (WFP), Carl Skau, [stated](https://x.com/CarlSkau/status/1942564970807300108): “The situation is the worst I’ve seen. Needs are higher than ever, and our ability to respond has never been more constrained. Starvation is spreading – people are dying just trying to find food.” > [@](#): > > Dr. Abu Selmiyah said that hospitals in Gaza city, particularly Al-Shifa, will imminently cease operations, noting that the hemodialysis unit had already been shut down to preserve electricity for ICUs and operating rooms amid a continued flow of casualties. Dr. Abu Selmiyah reported that 13 ICU patients mostly on ventilators, about 100 babies in incubators, and 350 patients relying on kidney dialysis services are currently at critical risk. More, as always, at the link. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2025, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4681 "2025-07-13T14:31:38Z")
> **[Israeli airstrike kills at least 10, including six children, at Gaza water...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/13/dozens-of-palestinians-killed-in-latest-israeli-attacks-near-food-aid-distribution-sites-medics-and-witnesses-say)** > > Nine killed in separate bombing of a home on Sunday and 31 others shot dead near aid distribution site on Saturday Don’t worry, it’s under review by the IDF! I’m sure they’ll get to the bottom of it, and not just sweep it under a rug like every other incidence of completely unnecessary civilian deaths at their hands… ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2025, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4682 "2025-07-17T14:04:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > War is the correct term. Until Hamas surrenders and returns the hostages they are at war. Whoa there hoss! War is armed conflict between matched enemies. Both sides do war stuff like shoot at each other. The goal being of one side to destroy the will and economy of the other to fight. Like the US and Japan on Guam in 1944. In three weeks the US inflicted 25000 Japanese deaths and removed all aspects of it’s economy - food, munitions, transportation, resupply etc. The US incurred 1600 conflict deaths. The area was occupied by the US and some Japanese continued a scattered resistance. That was war on a similar size region. Israel controlled the economy of Gaza at the beginning of the conflict and still does. Gaza never came close to Israel in weaponry. There was no opportunity for war. IDF attrition over 22 months averages 1-2 per day. A little above the highway death rate. Whatever the IDF is doing in Gaza cannot be labeled war. Perhaps occupation, terrorism, oppression, cleansing or genocide, but not war. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2025, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4683 "2025-07-17T15:12:43Z")
Actually the highway death rate is higher, 1.2 [per day](https://english.news.cn/20250126/d00007d0e728488eb1ac82403a69ca1f/c.html). The IDF death rate is running closer to .9 per day. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2025, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4684 "2025-07-17T17:27:39Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > War is armed conflict between matched enemies. I don’t think there’s really any requirement for them to be “matched”, whatever that would mean. If you have two governments that are fighting, that’s a war. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2025, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4685 "2025-07-17T17:34:12Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Actually the highway death rate is higher, 1.2 [per day](https://english.news.cn/20250126/d00007d0e728488eb1ac82403a69ca1f/c.html). > > The IDF death rate is running closer to .9 per day. Considering the vast gulf between the number of daily highway users and soldiers deployed to Gaza, what exactly is that number supposed to mean? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2025, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4686 "2025-07-17T17:35:23Z")
Good point. But unbalanced conflict is not considered war, especially without an official declaration of war. Perhaps you have a better term. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2025, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4687 "2025-07-17T17:39:28Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Good point. But unbalanced conflict is not considered war, especially without an official declaration of war. What? Since when? Was the Vietnam War a “balanced conflict”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2025, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4688 "2025-07-17T17:40:23Z")
I think it’s clearly a war - wars can include ethnic cleansing and even worse, as this war clearly does. The IDF is waging war against Gaza as a whole, and considering how Palestinians in the West Bank are treated, Palestinians as a whole. Nearly everything in Gaza is being destroyed and the population concentrated, and through a combination of corrupt, incompetent, and malevolent management of aid distribution, being forced into squid-game-like circumstances to try and get food that inevitably ends with the killings of unarmed civilians, over and over again. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2025, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4689 "2025-07-17T18:27:01Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Was the Vietnam War a “balanced conflict”? Pretty much, yes. As evidenced by the US getting its ass handed to it. I mean, it was two lots of professional armies going at each other. Seems like exactly what Crane meant. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2025, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4690 "2025-07-17T18:39:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > through a combination of corrupt, incompetent, and malevolent management of aid distribution, being forced into squid-game-like circumstances to try and get food that inevitably ends with the killings of unarmed civilians, over and over again. War is conflict between the armed forces of states. What Israel is doing in Gaza is a criminal act and should not be dignified as war. The US invasion of Grenada was subjugation, not war. During WW2 Germany did not declare war on Belgium, Netherlands or Czechoslovakia. North Korea and Viet Nam were US interventions in local civil wars. Troop losses were the result of armed conflict. Based on daily reports, Most IDF losses in Gaza are not caused by enemy arms. Outside of friendly fire most losses are due to explosions during demolition or by a few IEDs. If we accept that a state of war exists between Israel and Gaza then the Oct 7 raid was a minor act of war with no special significance other than, in a war, Gaza has the right to defend itself. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4691 "2025-07-18T01:06:41Z")
> [@](#): > > People have been confined to ever-shrinking spaces; as of 16 July, **over 86 per cent of the Gaza Strip is within Israeli-militarized zones or placed under displacement orders** (they largely overlap) since 18 March. > **[Humanitarian Situation Update #306 | Gaza Strip | United Nations Office for...](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/humanitarian-situation-update-306-gaza-strip)** > > Palestinians in Gaza continue to be killed amid ongoing reports of strikes on tents, schools and people seeking food, water, nutrition supplies, or other assistance; among them are children, journalists, medical workers, and humanitarian relief... …bolding mine, from the latest flash update. The area in which Palestinians are allowed to live is getting increasingly smaller. Gaza was already tiny. Before the “war” it was already one of the densest populations on earth. But this is completely _unconscionable_. The areas that people are being squeezed into aren’t “safe-zones.” The area is regularly bombed and people shot at by snipers, tanks and drones. And they aren’t even close to the food distribution areas which are in militarised zones in Rafah and Gaza City. > [@](#): > > On 12 July, the Israeli military [reinstated](https://x.com/avichayadraee/status/1943937588282503499?s=46) the ban on entry to the sea across the Gaza coast, prohibiting swimming and fishing activities. Palestinians are not allowed to _swim_. The people are _starving_, and they aren’t even allowed to _fish_. I challenge anyone in this thread to defend this. I’ve seen some pretty convoluted defences of IDF actions before. But I can’t see how anyone can defend this. > [@](#): > > The MoH further noted that the number of casualties among people trying to access food supplies has increased to 851 fatalities and more than 5,634 injuries since 27 May 2025. Among the thousands that have been killed over the last few months, 851 of them were trying to access food. The efforts of the IDF and the GHF will probably go down in history as one of the most incompetent, pathetic attempts at humanitarian aid. Imagine killing hundreds of people every single week that you are allegedly “trying to help.” But I won’t be charitable here because I don’t think this is a genuine attempt to help the Palestinian people. They aren’t being incompetent. This is all by design. > [@](#): > > Strikes on people sheltering in schools and tents, on people seeking food, water, nutrition supplies or other assistance, on medical and humanitarian relief personnel, and on journalists continue to be reported, resulting in mass casualties, including among children. > [@](#): > > On 10 July, an airstrike [struck](https://humanappeal.org.uk/news/2025/07/official-statement-from-human-appeal) the Orphans Department on the second floor of Human Appeal’s office in North Gaza, killing three staff members who were at their desks supporting vulnerable orphan care programmes. > [@](#): > > Since 7 October 2023, at least 483 aid workers, including 326 UN staff, 48 Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) staff, four ICRC staff and another 105 staff of humanitarian organizations, have been killed. The last couple of weeks, as we have seen throughout this “war”, we have seen more deliberate targeted assassinations of surgeons, aid workers and journalists. > [@](#): > > - On 11 and 13 July, three journalists were reported killed across Gaza Strip. On 10 July, a Palestinian journalist was [killed](https://pjs.ps/ar/page-3360.html) and others injured in an airstrike near his house in An Nuseirat, in Deir al Balah. In another incident on 13 July, a journalist was reportedly shot and killed while checking on his house in Az Zaytoun neighbourhood, southeast of Gaza city. On the same day, a journalist, his pregnant wife, their adult son, and two daughters (children) were reportedly killed when an IDP tent was hit in Al Mawasi area, in northwestern Khan Younis. In June, according to the Palestinian Journalists Syndicate ([PJS](https://pjs.ps/ar/page-3358.html)), seven journalists were killed in Gaza Strip and 16 others were injured. These aren’t accidents. They aren’t targeting Hamas. When a tent is hit killing a journalist, his wife and children, they were deliberately targeted. Much much more at the link. It covers the increasingly desperate food situation, the fuel crisis that has already shut down many facilities, the ability for first aid to respond, and impacted healthcare. It talks about mundane things, like how 10,000 newborns haven’t been registered, and the long-term implications of this. There are so many things that even if the war ended tomorrow, Gaza won’t ever be able to recover. (if it is allowed to continue to exist, which I doubt) Like how [10 children per day are losing a limb](https://www.savethechildren.net/news/gaza-more-10-children-day-lose-limb-three-months-brutal-conflict). Or how malnutrition will have lasting effects beyond however long the IDF keep up the siege. Or how doctors and surgeons and journalists and academics have been deliberately targeted and eliminated. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4692 "2025-07-18T01:16:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I challenge anyone in this thread to defend this. I’ve seen some pretty convoluted defences of IDF actions before. But I can’t see how anyone can defend this. Well, I guess I’d say that… > [@](#): > > There are so many things that even if the war ended tomorrow, Gaza won’t ever be able to recover. (if it is allowed to continue to exist, which I doubt) Huh, you beat me to it. I mean, I’d hoped to make a case that Israel is acting in its own best interests, but I’m not sure I could put it as succinctly as you just did. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4693 "2025-07-18T01:21:05Z")
In today’s news, another oopsie: > **[Israel says it ‘deeply regrets’ strike on Gaza’s only Catholic church, calls...](https://www.yahoo.com/news/pope-deeply-saddened-two-people-123726629.html)** > > Israel said Thursday that it “deeply regrets” a deadly strike on Gaza’s only Catholic church that killed three people. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4694 "2025-07-18T02:14:23Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’d hoped to make a case that Israel is acting in its own best interests …I’m sorry, but can you be a little bit less cryptic? We are talking about _banning Palestinians in Gaza from swimming in the ocean_. And if they do swim in the ocean, they risk getting _murdered_. Are you arguing murdering Palestinians for nothing more than swimming in the ocean is in Israels best interest? Because if you are, then can you elaborate? And if you aren’t, can you explain exactly what it is that you mean? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4695 "2025-07-18T02:30:34Z")
What I mean is what you mean; you wrote that: _“There are so many things that even if the war ended tomorrow, Gaza won’t ever be able to recover. (if it is allowed to continue to exist, which I doubt)”_ — and I took that to mean that Israel is winning the war. I took it to mean that the next time someone thinks about trying something like unto the 10/7 attack, they’ll remember that, _oh, right, that’s how Israel hits back after something like unto a 10/7 attack._ If a ban on [checks notes] swimming in the ocean helps that along, then — yeah? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4696 "2025-07-18T02:34:41Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What I mean is what you mean: you wrote that, …no I want to focus on the swimming in the ocean part. Because the “if allowed to exist” refers not to “Israel winning the war”, but to the probable _ethnic cleansing of Gaza_. I’m gonna assume that you don’t support that. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > If a ban on [checks notes] swimming in the ocean helps that along, then — yeah? Again: please elaborate. How does a ban on swimming in the ocean help that along? Be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4697 "2025-07-18T02:47:08Z")
It sounded to me [ETA: and TOWP’s subsequent post seems to confirm it] like TOWP was implying that what’s “in Israel’s own best interests” is the projected impossibility of Gaza’s ever being able to recover, or even continue to exist. Which… yuck? As a foreign-policy pragmatist, and also as a Jew, I tend to be unsympathetic to arguments that the existence of Israel as a nation-state is just intrinsically a bad idea. I mean, we’ve got the world that we’ve got, and demanding a mulligan on any national enterprise is mostly neither feasible nor fair to the vast majority of people involved in it. But if somebody’s seriously claiming that Israel’s “own best interests” require the destruction of Gaza and/or the Palestinian people in general… yeesh. If I really believed that that were true, I think it would be a lot harder to argue against the hardcore anti-Zionists. > [@TOWP](#): > > I took it to mean that the next time someone thinks about trying something like unto the 10/7 attack, they’ll remember that, _oh, right, that’s how Israel hits back after something like unto a 10/7 attack._ Uh, no. Genocide and ethnic cleansing of an entire people, especially a people that has just as much intrinsic right to live in its own historic homeland in Israel/Palestine as Israelis do, is not an acceptable or justifiable response even to terrorist attacks. Nor is it justifiable as a putative means of deterrence against future terrorist attacks. (Oppressive acts against chronically oppressed populations in the name of deterring violent opposition never turn out to be as reliable as the deterrence hawks claim they will be, anyway.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=227) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=229)