# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 232
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4758 "2025-07-18T12:15:59Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > That, sometimes, an attack that kills rather a lot of civilians — as was the case when Nagasaki got bombed, some time after December 7th — can _succeed._ Nagasaki is an example of futile cruelty. It had no impact on the war at all. Certainly not relevant to the current discussion. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4759 "2025-07-18T12:16:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …no. This isn’t what one would reasonably expect a signatory to the Geneva conventions to do. One would expect they would adhere to the conventions and uphold the principles of international humanitarian law Put aside, for a moment, how you expected Israel to respond _then._ My question is: how do you _now_ expect them to respond? If they were hit with another 10/7 style attack, what would you reasonably expect? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4760 "2025-07-18T12:18:12Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Put aside, for a moment, how you expected Israel to respond _then._ My question is: how do you _now_ expect them to respond? If they were hit with another 10/7 style attack, what would you reasonably expect? Maybe stop killing civilians and destroying civilian infrastructure? Allow aid into Gaza supervised by a third party rather than the current corrupt/incompetent/malevolent organization? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4761 "2025-07-18T12:19:23Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > how do you _now_ expect them to respond? Investigate the total failure of the IDF to prevent a breakout and riot by a population under siege. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4762 "2025-07-18T12:19:44Z")
Moderating: > [@Broomstick](#): > > The whole thing is disgusting and anyone who defends such a thing is a horrible human being. > [@Broomstick](#): > > What a horrible person you are > [@Broomstick](#): > > And you’re glad of that? You support that. You’ve stated unequivocally that you support that. I don’t know what to say to someone in favor of slowing killing _babies._ > [@Broomstick](#): > > ^ This. He’s OK with atrocities, murder, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. > > Wow. Well, has anyone started a Pit thread just for him? I mean, I defend his right to state his opinions but I also defend the right of everyone else to tell him what a depraved, evil, disgusting, horrible, _evil_ person he actually is. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Because it can be hard to realize someone you’ve known for awhile - even if only on a message board - is as bad as the WWII Nazis and their Final Solution. (Edited to correct a mistake) This is not the pit. This is a MPSIMS discussion thread. These statements are completely inappropriate. This is a warning for insulting posters outside of the pit. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4763 "2025-07-18T12:26:41Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > That, sometimes, an attack that kills rather a lot of civilians …before October 7th Israel _regularly_ conducted attacks that killed rather a lot of Palestinian civilians in both Gaza and the West Bank. They’ve been doing it for decades. It didn’t prevent October 7th. It’s a strategy that will _always_ eventually fail. Because if you commit atrocities by default, you are the _bad guy_. That doesn’t mean Hamas gets a pass. They are _also_ the bad guy. But you don’t get to do atrocities and get all of the glory. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Put aside, for a moment, how you expected Israel to respond _then._ My question is: how do you _now_ expect them to respond? If they were hit with another 10/7 style attack, what would you reasonably expect? What do you mean “hit with another 10/7 style attack?” Are you arguing that Israel are so fundamentally incompetent and so bad at war that after systematically destroying a country, forcing the population into concentrated areas, closing the borders so completely that not even baby formula is getting in, that somehow they would still be at risk from another October 7th? Because there were multiple intelligence, tactical and strategic failings that lead to how devastating the Hamas attacks were on the day. Is it your argument that Israel learned nothing from that, and would just do the same thing all over again? I thought you actually had more respect for the IDF than this. Turns out, you think they are incapable of securing their borders. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4764 "2025-07-18T12:52:11Z")
My apologies for screwing up and mistaking this location for the Pit. As penance I voluntarily withdraw from this thread. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4765 "2025-07-18T13:56:49Z")
@puzzlegal, this is a discussion thread, not a breaking news thread, right? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2025, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4766 "2025-07-18T13:59:39Z")
Sorry, my mistake. It is a discussion thread. I will go edit my mod note. It doesn’t matter for the warning, but it certainly matters for other discussion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2025, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4767 "2025-07-19T08:37:43Z")
More reporting that Israel plans to ethnically cleanse Gaza, this time with the US’s help: [https://www.axios.com/2025/07/18/israel-send-palestinians-gaza-indonesia-ethiopia](https://www.axios.com/2025/07/18/israel-send-palestinians-gaza-indonesia-ethiopia) ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2025, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4768 "2025-07-19T13:05:32Z")
I think the real war crime is that Axios apparently wants you to subscribe to read their 3 bullet points per article. But yeah IDK how to deny that it’s ethnic cleansing at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2025, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4769 "2025-07-19T14:35:47Z")
…testimony from Professor Nick Maynard, surgeon currently working in Gaza: > [@](#): > > Professor Nick Maynard told [BBC Radio 4](https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/bbc-radio-4) he and his colleagues have experienced unusually high instances of gunshot victims targeted at aid distribution sites - mainly teenage boys - needing treatment for similar injuries. > > “On one day they’ll all be abdominal gunshot wounds, on another they’ll all be head gunshot wounds or neck gunshot wounds, on another they’ll be arm or leg gunshot wounds,” he said. > > “It’s almost as if a game is being played, that they’re deciding to shoot the head today, the neck tomorrow, the testicles the day after.” I can’t find the BBC 4 link, but a version was uploaded to Twitter, you can listen to him say it here: > I _was_ going to challenge anyone in this thread to defend this. But after the last time…I won’t make that mistake again. The people I’m following either in Gaza or are covering Gaza are posting increasingly distressed. As bad as everything has been up until now, people are reporting we are on the verge of a human-created catastrophe of an unimaginable scale. The levels of starvation are hitting a critical point. Mothers can’t breastfeed their children. There is no formula. There are places in the north that haven’t had food or water for weeks. Only the very strong can make it through the gauntlet to the 4 “Gaza Humanitarian Foundation” distribution points, and they risk getting killed before or after they get there. Doctors are fainting during surgery. They report maybe getting only one rice meal a day if they are _lucky_. People collapsing in the streets. We are close to reaching the point of no return. Where for many people, even if the food does start to flow into Gaza again, it’s going to be too late. And why this isn’t just a tragedy, but an atrocity of a scale we haven’t seen in a long time, is because its being conducted by one of the “good guys”, and it has the near full backing of the most powerful countries in the world. _Everybody knows this is happening_. And they continue to support it. They continue to fund it. They continue to invite war criminals and snap photos with them. Yes: I’m looking at all of the _Democrats_ in this photo. [![](https://truthout.org/app/uploads/2025/07/2025_0711-netanyahu-group-2048x1366.jpg) ](https://truthout.org/app/uploads/2025/07/2025_0711-netanyahu-group-2048x1366.jpg) The food is right there. The UN has enough food for three months staged right outside Gaza ready to flood the country as soon as they are allowed in. It isn’t a problem of logistics. This isn’t a natural disaster. This is a deliberate, _calculated_ decision to starve the people of Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2025, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4770 "2025-07-19T22:33:15Z")
32 more Palestinians killed by the IDF near aid sites. Want some food aid? Here are some bullets too! > **[32 Palestinians shot dead trying to reach U.S. group's food distribution...](https://www.nbcnews.com/world/gaza/palestinians-shot-dead-food-aid-rcna219762)** > > Amid widespread hunger and a collapsing aid system, Palestinians continue to risk their lives for food. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4771 "2025-07-20T11:23:33Z")
No loss of Israeli troops according to the [**IDF**](https://www.idf.il/160590) page. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4772 "2025-07-20T12:50:06Z")
…there is an extended debate in the Roger Waters thread that has taken it off-topic, so I thought I’d bring it here. I’ll summarise because directly quoting from the pit, especially considering what was said, isn’t appropriate. But please feel free to correct me if you feel my summary isn’t accurate. Babale says that " I’d dispute that torture camps exist." I provided the following citations: > [@Roger Waters is a tankie](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/334): > > [https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408\_welcome\_to\_hell](https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell) > > [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/05/israel-un-expert-calls-probe-allegations-torture-and-mistreatment-against](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/05/israel-un-expert-calls-probe-allegations-torture-and-mistreatment-against) > > [Palestinian rights group calls for closure of ‘Israeli torture camps’ | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/8/14/palestinian-rights-group-calls-for-closure-of-israeli-torture-camps) [Torture, abuse and humiliation: Palestinians on Israeli prison ‘hell’ | Israel | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/05/torture-abuse-and-humiliation-palestinians-on-israeli-prison-hell) [Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests   - Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/) [https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd) [Blindfolded and beaten: Palestinians tell of Israeli jail abuse](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2yylgze4ro) [https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/08/05/israeli-prisons-operate-like-torture-camps-for-palestinian-detainees\_6709743\_4.html](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/08/05/israeli-prisons-operate-like-torture-camps-for-palestinian-detainees_6709743_4.html) [Palestinian prisoners describe systemic abuse in Israel’s jails | Israel | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/05/palestinian-prisoners-describe-widespread-abuse-in-israels-jails) [Israel: Palestinians from Gaza held in secret detention describe torture - new testimonies](https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/israel-palestinians-gaza-held-secret-detention-describe-torture-new-testimonies) [Israel: Palestinian Healthcare Workers Tortured | Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/08/26/israel-palestinian-healthcare-workers-tortured) So my question here is: do you dispute the testimony that released Palestinians and whistleblowers are giving, do you have any evidence that suggests the contrary, and do the International Red Cross have access to Israeli detention centres to check on prisoner well-being? And if not the Red Cross, what oversight is there? Babale suggests that my assertion that IDF drones are targeting children was a “conspiracy theory.” (for clarity they did not those exact words, the actual words were tad more colourful, but perhaps not appropriate for this forum. ) I provided the following citations. > [@Roger Waters is a tankie](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/334): > > [Gaza surgeon describes drones targeting children](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7893vpy2gqo) > > [Israel uses sniper drones in Gaza, eyewitnesses say : NPR](https://www.npr.org/2024/11/26/g-s1-35437/israel-sniper-drones-gaza-eyewitnesses) > > [Israel’s war on Gaza is deliberately targeting children – new UN report](https://theconversation.com/israels-war-on-gaza-is-deliberately-targeting-children-new-un-report-252398) [As a surgeon in Gaza, I witnessed hell visited on children. It shames me that Britain played a part in it | Nizam Mamode | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/feb/02/surgeon-gaza-children-britain-sniper-fire-drones-labour-arms-israel) > > [Witnesses say Israel is using sniper drones in Gaza and they're shooting civilians : NPR](https://www.npr.org/2024/11/19/nx-s1-5195171/witnesses-say-israel-is-using-sniper-drones-in-gaza-and-theyre-shooting-civilians) > > [‘Not a normal war’: doctors say children have been targeted by Israeli snipers in Gaza | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war) My question to Babale is: do you dispute the testimony here? Do you have any experts that support your assertion that “simple geometry” shows that this isn’t actually happening? Thirdly, Babale disputes my characterisation of a cite I provided from the New York Times and I have to admit that was a tad sloppy on my part. The citation still supports my overall point. That IDF snipers are deliberately targeting children. But because the NYT is paywalled I incorrectly linked to the defence of the evidence editorial, which I had assumed would have been enough to indicate I was referring to the totality of evidence, including the original article. But that was what I intended. Secondly: because the original article was behind a paywall I can’t verify my assertion that it was specifically drones that were doing some of the killing. However, I’ve provided more than enough citations from reputable sources that show that yes, the IDF have sniper drones, and secondly, testimonials from reputable people that claim children are being deliberately targeted by sniper drones. So my question to Babale is, do you concede that these sniper drones (as NPR calls them) exist? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4773 "2025-07-20T13:04:47Z")
…the World Central Kitchen have run out of food to cook. > [@](#): > > World Central Kitchen teams in Gaza have again run out of ingredients to cook warm meals. We served 80,000 meals yesterday, emptying the last of our replenished stocks while aid trucks remain stuck at the border. > **[World Central Kitchen | WCK Forced to Pause Cooking in Gaza, But Baking and...](https://wck.org/news/gaza-update-7-20)** > > World Central Kitchen teams in Gaza have again run out of ingredients to cook warm meals. We served 80,000 meals yesterday, emptying the last of our replenished stocks while aid trucks remain stuck at the border.  > Our brave teams are still... I heard this first earlier today because the people working in the hospitals were reliant on World Central Kitchen to provide the meagre meals they were getting. But there were no meals today. Reports from the Gaza Ministry of Health that 71 children have died from malnutrition. It was 32 a month ago since the start of the “war”. So we are seeing a doubling of the toll in just a month, and that’s only from the areas with reliable reporting. As I mentioned in earlier posts they’ve stopped being able to record the casualty numbers from the north because the hospitals have been shut down. So we don’t really even know what is happening up there. Reports of another “flour” massacre in the north right now. Rescuers struggling to get access and get people south to the hospitals. Footage is horrifying. Gaza is on track for a humanitarian catastrophe. It’s only going to ramp up from here. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4774 "2025-07-20T14:10:48Z")
‘Never again’ doesn’t apply to Guernica. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4775 "2025-07-20T16:38:38Z")
Dozens more reported killed while trying to get aid: > **[Israeli Troops Kill Dozens Seeking Aid Near Border, Gaza Officials Say](https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/20/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-military-evacuation.html?smid=bsky-nytimes&smtyp=cur)** > > Thousands of Palestinians had gathered to try to get aid from U.N. trucks entering the territory. Distributing aid in a war zone isn’t this hard. It takes incompetence, or malevolence, to make it this deadly. Probably a combination. And it’s clear this Israeli government, and this IDF, is _absolutely fine_ with killing a bunch of Gazan civilians every day. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4776 "2025-07-20T18:19:31Z")
But also - the US and UK governments are fine with it too. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4777 "2025-07-20T18:41:01Z")
Definitely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=231) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=233)