# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 234
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2025, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4798 "2025-07-23T15:37:04Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Whoa there hoss! War is armed conflict between matched enemies That’s simply not a true statement. Hamas started this war and and their goal hasn’t changed. It is the elimination of Israel. It was/is backed backed by Iran with the intent to bring in other Muslim countries. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2025, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4799 "2025-07-23T18:32:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Hamas started this war and and their goal hasn’t changed. OH? When did Hamas start this war? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4800 "2025-07-24T02:58:47Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > OH? When did Hamas start this war? Look at the title of the thread. Oct 2023. but you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4801 "2025-07-24T03:20:16Z")
…so Israel are going full steam ahead, blaming everyone else but themselves for the looming famine. Its the UN. Hamas. The photos aren’t real. It’s horrifying to watch. Gaslighting at its worse. Here is David Mencer saying there “is no famine in Gaza.” Full Baghdad Bob moment. > Here is the Israel Foreign Ministry rejecting statements from Humanitarian agencies. > Here is COGAT putting the blame on UN agencies for not allowing the aid to flow. > Don’t fall for it. You (as in metaphorical you) fell for the disaster of the [Floating Pier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_floating_pier). You fell for the air-drops. Don’t fall for this as well. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4802 "2025-07-24T11:27:52Z")
Israel had conducted air strikes on Gaza during September. In Oct Gazans blew holes in the Israeli siege barrier and destroyed robotic machine guns that had been placed on Gaza territory by Israel. The siege barrier had been in place for 16 years. The only thing that ‘started’ in Oct was the escalation of Israeli air attacks on the civilian population of a country it held under siege. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4803 "2025-07-24T11:44:29Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > In Oct Gazans blew holes in the Israeli siege barrier and destroyed robotic machine guns that had been placed on Gaza territory by Israel. Yeah, @Crane? Is that all they did? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4804 "2025-07-24T11:47:11Z")
The issue was ‘started a war’, they did not start a war. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4805 "2025-07-24T11:49:05Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The issue was ‘started a war’, they did not start a war What do _you_ call it when someone goes into another country and rapes and kills a bunch of random civilians? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4806 "2025-07-24T11:54:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What do _you_ call it when someone goes into another country and rapes and kills a bunch of random civilians? We have been here before. On Oct 7 1200 Israelis were not raped and murdered. I’d call your statement propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4807 "2025-07-24T12:03:12Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > We have been here before. On Oct 7 1200 Israelis were not raped and murdered. I didn’t say anything about 1200 people being raped. You’re the only one who brought up numbers. 1200 Israelis _were_ brutally murdered, and many many others were raped. Do you deny that? If not, why do you describe that event as an attack on a wall and some cameras? > [@Crane](#): > > I’d call your statement propaganda. Right back at your statement that paints Oct 7 as a nonviolent protest against a wall and some cameras. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4808 "2025-07-24T12:42:50Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > 1200 Israelis _were_ brutally murdered, and many many others were raped. 816 were civilians, 382 were military and police. There were attacks on 3 military targets. The police and military died in combat. Of the total some (probably 20%) were victims of friendly fire. The 1200 number has become an icon of Netanyahu propaganda. The battle of Oct 7 was clearly won by Hamas and other militants within Gaza. It was horrible and destructive to both IDF and the civilian population, but Gaza won the day. As a result of its’ response Israel has suffered a major defeat in world opinion. Nothing was started by Oct 7 and nothing was resolved in the ongoing dispute between Israel and Gaza. [Link for numbers](https://aoav.org.uk/2023/an-analysis-of-the-7th-of-october-2023-casualties-in-israel-as-a-result-of-the-hamas-attack/#:~:text=Executive%2520Summary:%2520This%2520report%2520offers,Gaza%2520and%2520key%2520military%2520sites.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4809 "2025-07-24T12:46:49Z")
Multiple international news orgs are reporting that their journalists in Gaza are at risk of starvation: > **[Joint statement on Gaza from AFP, AP, BBC News and Reuters](https://www.bbc.com/mediacentre/statements/joint-statement-on-gaza-from-afp-ap-bbc-news-reuters)** I wonder how much starvation would be enough for supporters of the IDF to decide that something is wrong with the way that Israel is allowing and distributing aid? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4810 "2025-07-24T12:48:32Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > 816 were civilians, 382 were military and police. There were attacks on 3 military targets. The police and military died in combat. Of the total some (probably 20%) were victims of friendly fire. The 1200 number has become an icon of Netanyahu propaganda. And yet, you uncritically repeat Hamas Ministry of Health 's numbers, which includes both civilians, combatants, and people killed in friendly fire like at the famous misfired rocket that hit a hospital parking lot… Most curious. > [@Crane](#): > > The battle of Oct 7 was clearly won by Hamas and other militants within Gaza. So Oct 7 was a “battle” but Israel’s response wasn’t a “war”… Got it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4811 "2025-07-24T12:58:58Z")
And yet, you uncritically repeat Israel’s numbers, which includes both civilians, combatants, and people killed in friendly fire… Most curious. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4812 "2025-07-24T13:00:04Z")
I don’t believe I have ever used the reported Gaza casualty numbers. But, do you doubt that Gaza has suffered thousands of terrible injuries from burns and shrapnel. > [@Babale](#): > > So Oct 7 was a “battle” but Israel’s response wasn’t a “war”… Got it. Yes, whatever Isreal is doing to Gaza is not war. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4813 "2025-07-24T13:01:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Multiple international news orgs are reporting that their journalists in Gaza are at risk of starvation: > > [Joint statement on Gaza from AFP, AP, BBC News and Reuters](https://www.bbc.com/mediacentre/statements/joint-statement-on-gaza-from-afp-ap-bbc-news-reuters) …I’m honestly cynical about statements like this, and the statement I quoted before from David Lammy. The BBC for example have been almost silent about the targeted killings of journalists. But they are speaking up now because they know that a mass-death wave is inevitable. They are getting ahead of the story. Of course, its better than nothing. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I wonder how much starvation would be enough for supporters of the IDF to decide that something is wrong with the way that Israel is allowing and distributing aid? Israel are re-writing the narrative and blaming the UN. As they are portraying it: the heroic Gaza Humanitarian Foundation have provided over 90 million meals. UNRWA and co are corrupt, infiltrated by Hamas who are diverting and stealing the food. It’s a very carefully crafted narrative. It falls apart very quickly when you look at the evidence. But people believed at the time that the “air-drops” were genuine attempts to get aid on the ground when they were a statistical blip. People genuinely believed the US built pier would help get aid into Gaza when it barely worked at all, and they eventually closed it without it helping the aid effort at all. And people will believe this. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4814 "2025-07-24T15:05:21Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Yes, whatever Isreal is doing to Gaza is not war. Yes it is. And until Hamas surrenders and returns the hostages the war will continue. All the concern for starvation is the direct result of Hamas and their continuation of the war. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4815 "2025-07-24T15:07:53Z")
Israel controls the flow of food and aid into Gaza - if Gazans are starving, it’s because Israeli policy isn’t allowing enough food. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4816 "2025-07-24T15:11:14Z")
Hamas controls the ability to safely distribute it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2025, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4817 "2025-07-24T15:13:46Z")
Bullshit. Let’s see a cite for that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=233) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=235)