# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 236
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4838 "2025-07-25T14:27:10Z")
@Banquet_Bear are you opposed to Hamas disarming? It certainly seems like you’re opposed to them being disarmed being a prerequisite for peace. But are you opposed to them disarming in and of itself? If you’re _not_ opposed to them disarming, how do you see that being brought about _other than_ by force? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4839 "2025-07-25T15:01:37Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian Law. Seige law applies, right? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4840 "2025-07-25T15:16:24Z")
If the only way to disarm Hamas militarily is to destroy nearly all buildings in Hamas and starve and murder tens of thousands of Gazan civilians, then it’s probably not worth it. This Israeli government is sowing the seeds of decades more bloodshed and international isolation, which, IMO, will be far, far more damaging to Israel than even Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4841 "2025-07-25T15:16:44Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It certainly seems like you’re opposed to them being disarmed being a prerequisite for peace. …as a prerequisite? No. I think stepping down from power and releasing the hostages should be enough to end this war. > [@Babale](#): > > If you’re _not_ opposed to them disarming, how do you see that being brought about _other than_ by force? I’m on record as saying targeted killings of any terror suspects or people directly responsible for October 7th would be okay with me, not that anyone is asking my opinion. That wouldn’t require a continuation of the siege, the continuation of the bombing campaign, the continuation of the war. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Seige law applies, right? You tell me. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4842 "2025-07-25T15:28:02Z")
I seem to recall this time last year, President Biden had this whole three phase peace plan, which Israel signed on to, but I don’t remember disarming Hamas being a red line at the time. Just removal from power and release of hostages. I don’t think it is possible to get a militant group like Hamas to willingly disarm. I doubt it is organized in a way that they can comply with that demand. However I do think a peacekeeping force will be necessary, for obvious reasons (since Hamas won’t be disarmed). ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4843 "2025-07-25T15:28:52Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You tell me. That wasn’t a rhetorical question, I don’t know the answer. I wonder if West Berlin was a violation as well… > **[Joint Blog Series: Are sieges prohibited under contemporary IHL? -...](https://blogs.icrc.org/law-and-policy/2019/02/05/joint-blog-series-are-sieges-prohibited-under-contemporary-ihl/)** > > Are seiges ever permitted under internaitonal humanitarian law? How does the law constrain seige warfare? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4844 "2025-07-25T15:30:40Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t think it is possible to get a militant group like Hamas to willingly disarm. I doubt it is organized in a way that they can comply with that demand. This. And also, what does it even mean? Hamas gives up it’s bomb launchers and other heavy military equipment? No person who was ever paid by Hamas can own a steak knife? The first might be feasible. The second obviously isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4845 "2025-07-25T15:40:16Z")
Considering the starvation tactics forced upon them, they might as well give up the steak knives, right? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4846 "2025-07-25T16:27:19Z")
The people of Gaza need to remove Hamas and criminalize their existence just as Germans did with Nazis after the war. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4847 "2025-07-25T16:33:35Z")
How can they remove Hamas while starving, with no medical care available, and being shot at by Israeli soldiers while lining up for food aid? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4848 "2025-07-25T16:35:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The people of Gaza need to remove Hamas and criminalize their existence Hamas is not a _they_, Hamas is an _it_. What you wrote and this, _‘The people of Gaza need to remove Hamas and criminalize its existence’_ have radically different implications. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4849 "2025-07-25T23:28:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So they have a bunch of aid that was stolen without USAID thenselves ever identifying who stole it. > > That is certainly not evidence that the aid was _not_ taken by Hamas. It was taken by _someone_, and Hamas is certainly the most capable group of carrying something like that out. Why would Hamas take food aid anyway? I can understand wanting to keep fuel out of their hands since it has military uses, but why limit food in Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4850 "2025-07-25T23:34:34Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Why would Hamas take food aid anyway? For the power and thus control they gain over the populace by distributing it. They also use it to pay their fighters, either by selling the food on the black market or (as the war has continued) by paying them in food directly. > [@DemonTree](#): > > but why limit food in Gaza? The goal isn’t to limit food in Gaza, it’s to shift the distribution of it out of Hamas’ control. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4851 "2025-07-25T23:44:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > For the power and thus control they gain over the populace by distributing it. > > They also use it to pay their fighters, either by selling the food on the black market or (as the war has continued) by paying them in food directly. If food in Gaza wasn’t limited then Hamas would be unable to gain power and control by distributing it, and it wouldn’t be valuable enough to pay their fighters. And by placing a single agency in charge of distributing the food, reliant on the IDF, Israeli authorities gain power and control over the populace for themselves instead. Making it rather convenient for them to accuse other aid agencies of being corrupt. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2025, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4852 "2025-07-25T23:49:17Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The goal isn’t to limit food in Gaza, it’s to shift the distribution of it out of Hamas’ control. …food distribution _wasn’t_ under Hamas’s control. Every single aid agency on the ground have made it crystal clear that this wasn’t the case. There is no evidence to support the assertions you’ve just made. Israels goal is to limit food into Gaza. If it wasn’t, then you would see hundreds of food distribution points, distribution points NOT placed in militarised zones, you would see ALL of the crossings open, you would see food flooding into the strip, there would be food distribution points in the north. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2025, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4853 "2025-07-26T00:00:13Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …food distribution _wasn’t_ under Hamas’s control. > > Every single aid agency on the ground have made it crystal clear that this wasn’t the case. > > There is no evidence to support the assertions you’ve just made. Israeli intelligence disagrees with you; American intelligence disagrees with you; the USAID report cited above neither disagrees with you nor agrees with you, since it simply shrugs and says “I dunno” as to the question of “who stole all the aid shipments you reported”. (Hint: the answer is Hamas). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2025, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4854 "2025-07-26T00:08:40Z")
Here’s a cite: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2025/07/21/hamas-gaza-war-financial-crisis/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2025/07/21/hamas-gaza-war-financial-crisis/) > [@](#): > > Hamas profited “especially off the aid that had cost them nothing but whose prices they hike up,” said a Gazan contractor who has worked at Gaza’s border crossings during the war. > Over nearly two years, he said, he saw Hamas routinely collect 20,000 shekels (about $6,000) from local merchants, threatening to confiscate their trucks if they did not pay. He recalled that civil servants for the Hamas-led government said several times that they would kill him or call him a collaborator with Israel if he did not cooperate with their demands to divert aid. He said he refused. But he added that he knew at least two aid truck drivers who he said were killed by Hamas for refusing to pay. > [@](#): > > Earlier in the war, Hamas relied on taxes imposed on commercial shipments and the seizure of humanitarian goods, according to Gazans and current and former Israeli and foreign officials. According to a Gazan who has worked at the border, plainclothes Hamas personnel routinely took inventory of goods at the Rafah crossing, until it closed last year, and at the Kerem Shalom crossing, though it was under IDF control. They also surveyed warehouses and markets. Most of the Palestinians interviewed for this story spoke either on the condition of anonymity or that only their first name be used, for fear of reprisal by Hamas. > [@](#): > > But Hamas has profited off commercial trade and humanitarian aid, netting hundreds of millions of dollars, according to two Israeli military officials and an Israeli intelligence official, who all spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive findings. For instance, the officials said, Hamas seized at least 15 percent of some goods, like flour, and aid vouchers that international agencies had intended to provide to hungry Gazans. These officials said some of that was given to Hamas personnel and supporters while the rest was sold to make money. > Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a Palestinian American who leads the advocacy group Realign for Palestine, said that Hamas repeatedly modified its strategy for profiting off aid and commerce while counting on the humanitarian crisis to bring the war to an end. “Hamas’s strategy relied on the suffering of Gazans,” said Alkhatib. “But when this strategy failed, it foolishly doubled down on this approach, in large part because it had nothing else in its toolbox to deal with Israel’s ferocious reaction to Oct. 7 and the world’s inability to stop it.” > “Hamas sees aid as its most important currency,” said a man from Deir al-Balah, in central Gaza, who helps manage the distribution of aid. He said that while most of the population had to scrape for water and food, people affiliated with Hamas had been gifted boxes of aid meant for wider distribution. > [@](#): > > “One of the reasons that Hamas is pushing for a return to the old system is that they have guys in all of the warehouses,” said a Western official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the news media. The presence of employees of the Gaza government allows Hamas to regulate and monitor market activities, as well as tax or seize some of the supplies at times, said a high-level Israeli official. > [@](#): > > Until commercial shipments into Gaza were suspended in October, Hamas taxed these imports at the border and, if traders refused, commandeered a portion of their trucks and sold their contents to Gazan merchants, according to a Gazan economic reporter. He said that before the war, “fuel and cigarettes were the highest taxed and most profitable items for the Hamas government in Gaza,” adding that revenue data has been difficult to access. > A Gazan businessman said Hamas had imposed a tax of a least 20 percent on many goods. But the group also would take control of trucks carrying high-demand goods like flour, which could sell for up to $30 for a kilogram, and steal fuel meant for aid groups. Fuel supplies have produced high revenue for Hamas during the war, with the group both taxing and seizing fuel stored at gas stations for sale, said an Israeli military official who spoke on the condition of anonymity in accordance with military protocol. > In addition to taxing goods, Hamas also made money by allowing associated merchants to sell imported staples like sugar and flour at inflated prices without fear of being punished for price gouging, according to the IDF, which cited an internal Hamas document obtained by the military. The Gazan economic reporter, who spoke on the condition of anonymity out of fear of retaliation, confirmed that these merchants are allowed to sell goods at inflated prices. He said Hamas would at times constrain supply on the market by ordering others to withhold distribution for several days, thus forcing up prices. If you’re curious, @DemonTree ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2025, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4855 "2025-07-26T00:15:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Israeli intelligence disagrees with you; American intelligence disagrees with you …then they can share that intelligence with us. And they can get a _better plan_. Because the current method of distribution has resulted in thousands of Palestinians _massacred_ trying to access that aid, thousands more injured, and hundreds of people are starting to die from starvation. Israel and the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation are not up to the task. They should step aside and leave it to the experts. Because if Cindy McCain of all people is telling us that no, food distribution WASN’T under Hamas’s control then I have no reason not to believe her. > [@Babale](#): > > the USAID report cited above neither disagrees with you nor agrees with you The _absence_ of evidence is not evidence. > [@Babale](#): > > “I dunno” as to the question of “who stole all the aid shipments you reported”. (Hint: the answer is Hamas). > [@reporting](#): > > The analysis found that at least 44 of the 156 incidents where aid supplies were reported stolen or lost were “either directly or indirectly” due to Israeli military actions, according to the briefing slides. [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/usaid-analysis-found-no-evidence-massive-hamas-theft-gaza-aid-2025-07-25/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/usaid-analysis-found-no-evidence-massive-hamas-theft-gaza-aid-2025-07-25/) A full third of the aid were directly or indirectly attributable to Israeli military actions. We know who _one of the culprits was_. (Hint: the answer is NOT Hamas) Reporting from the ground suggest aid is being diverted by Israeli backed gangs. This has been widely cited in this thread. Israels goal is to limit food into Gaza. If it wasn’t, then you would see hundreds of food distribution points, distribution points NOT placed in militarised zones, you would see ALL of the crossings open, you would see food flooding into the strip, there would be food distribution points in the north. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2025, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4856 "2025-07-26T00:20:48Z")
…from your cite: > [@](#): > > The United Nations, the European Commission and major international aid organizations have said they have no evidence that Hamas has systematically stolen their aid, and the Israeli government has not provided proof. The common element with EVERY SINGLE ALLEGATION made by Israeli authorities is that when asked for proof, _they don’t provide it_. Israel don’t allow international reporters into Gaza. There is no independent confirmation of their claims. Until they start to allow that: it needs to be recognised they aren’t an independent voice, they are _one of the parties to this “war”_, and everything needs to be viewed from that lens. It will _obviously_ be biased. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2025, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4857 "2025-07-26T01:07:24Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > A full third of the aid were directly or indirectly attributable to Israeli military actions. Thankfully, the article explains what it means by “indirectly attributable”, so we can see exactly how horseshit their definition is: > [@](#): > > Losses indirectly attributed to Israeli military included cases where they compelled aid groups to use delivery routes with high risks of theft or looting, ignoring requests for alternative routes, the analysis said. Thank God for that, or we might think Israel was doing something nefarious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=235) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=237)