# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 238
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4878 "2025-07-30T00:42:12Z")
I don’t think so, I think that shift was a decade or so in the making. It looked sudden at the end, but it wasn’t a sudden change. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4879 "2025-07-30T00:42:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ultimately, the party is its voters, not its office holders. …and the voters didn’t come out for the party in the last election. That’s the gamble here. I think we saw this at the last election: the Democrats prioritised support for Israel over running a potentially winning campaign. These trends were there before the last election and were ignored. They will ignore them again. The primaries are something else entirely. It’s a very different political game. I’m just calling it as I see it. I don’t believe the Democratic machine will let a “defund” candidate win the nomination. Because that’s how they will frame it. It will take a grassroots movement to make any headway here which is why Mamdani’s electoral run in NYC is so important and instructive. If he can win there, they can win anywhere. But ultimately, I don’t like the odds. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It didn’t take long with Trump. He changed his party in one election. No. It started _well_ before that. There was the Tea Party. There was the long term campaign to take over the Supreme Court. It ultimately _manifested_ itself with Trump and MAGA. But they have been planning this and seeding this for a very long time. That isn’t the case with the Democrats. I’d argue that process is just _starting_ now. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4880 "2025-07-30T12:09:48Z")
> In what was perhaps the most harrowing story of all, Aguilar held up a photo and told the story of a young Palestinian boy he met near one of the distribution sites who was crying and starving. The boy took Aguilar’s hand and kissed it and said “shukran,” meaning thank you in Arabic. “I kneeled down to look at him in the face so I can let him know that people care.” > > After the boy exited the area with a group, Aguilar heard machine gunfire ostensibly being used to hurry the Palestinians away from the distribution site. He ran over to survey the scene and saw the boy among the dead. From former US Green Beret Anthony Aguilar. > **[The Green Beret of Gaza](https://www.thehandbasket.co/p/anthony-aguilar-gaza-humanitarian-foundation-war-crimes)** > > Gaza Humanitarian Foundation contractor Anthony Aguilar describes witnessing war crimes. This is what the IDF and GHF, and some American contractors/mercenaries, are doing right now. Shooting starving kids. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4881 "2025-07-30T12:16:17Z")
Does your source say that they died because of enemy attacks? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4882 "2025-07-30T12:38:18Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > NVM, not worth it ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4883 "2025-07-30T14:41:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does your source say that they died because of enemy attacks? My source is the **[IDF statistics](https://www.idf.il/160590)** site. The number is enemy action by IDF definition. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4884 "2025-07-30T16:17:32Z")
I’m baffled that the leaders of France and the UK sized up the ongoing famine in Gaza and thought that their main gambit should be to make noises about recognizing a Palestinian state. It just seems like a too-tangential way of addressing the urgent humanitarian crisis. If the idea is to pressure Israel to let food in, presumably there are more direct ways to do so. Maybe I’m missing something? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4885 "2025-07-30T16:39:11Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > Maybe I’m missing something? The world doesn’t really care or we wouldn’t be in this situation to begin with. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4886 "2025-07-30T17:38:35Z")
I’m not sure how much leverage the UK and France really have to influence Israeli behavior. If the US were to cut off aid to Israel, that would apply significant pressure. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4887 "2025-07-30T20:38:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > No. It started _well_ before that. There was the Tea Party. There was the long term campaign to take over the Supreme Court. It ultimately _manifested_ itself with Trump and MAGA. But they have been planning this and seeding this for a very long time. > > That isn’t the case with the Democrats. I’d argue that process is just _starting_ now. I would argue that the revitalization of the Democratic Party began with Bernie Sanders’ Presidential run in 2016. He opened the door for AOC and Mamdami to walk through, ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4888 "2025-07-30T21:28:43Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I’m not sure how much leverage the UK and France really have to influence Israeli behavior. If the US were to cut off aid to Israel, that would apply significant pressure. The UK doesn’t have much leverage. Biggest issue is parts for the F-35, which according to this article are supplied to the US to be incorporated in jets bound for Israel. Still, we could - and should - suspend all arms exports, and could place sanctions. The EU is a significant trading partner for Israel, they would have some leverage - I don’t know what they’re waiting for. > **[Gaza war: Is the UK selling arms to Israel?](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz09k48z9v0o)** > > The UK suspended dozens of arms licences to Israel last year, but many say the measures do not go far enough. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4889 "2025-07-30T22:20:24Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I would argue that the revitalization of the Democratic Party began with Bernie Sanders’ Presidential run in 2016. He opened the door for AOC and Mamdami to walk through …confining my response strictly to what this thread is discussing, I’d disagree. Bernie still refuses to call it the “gen\_\_\_\_\_” word. And AOC voted to continue funding for Israel in the latest round of voting. They are both very much still in the mainstream, unlike Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar who have maintained a much more principled, consistent stance on Gaza. I’d argue that Mamdami _could_ be the start of a “revitalisation”: but unlike what happened with the Republicans, I don’t think there will be enough momentum to dislodge the establishment. Because the Tea Party and MAGA were well funded, albeit largely in the “dark pattern” kinda way. I think something different will happen with the Democrats: but that’s outside the parameters of this thread. Happy to discuss it with you somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4890 "2025-07-30T22:24:43Z")
> [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > If the idea is to pressure Israel to let food in, presumably there are more direct ways to do so. …because it isn’t about this. It’s about _optics_ for domestic consumption. They (along with everyone else that has suddenly had a change of heart) would have known for a while where Israel’s strategy of near total siege would be leading. They would be privy to intelligence and assessments that would…not be great. So they are attempting to get ahead of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4891 "2025-07-30T22:52:03Z")
Bernie is forcing a Senate vote today on his bill to cut off US military aid to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2025, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4892 "2025-07-30T23:22:52Z")
…I know. And he refused to call it the g word _yesterday_. I’m not suggesting that what he’s doing is a bad thing. It’s just: don’t get your hopes up. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4893 "2025-07-31T02:16:03Z")
Voted down 70-27. Shameful, but that’s 13 more votes than he got in April. Haven’t seen a breakdown of the vote, but I assume almost all the yea votes were Democrats, which means the majority of the Democratic caucus now favors cutting off aid, including some centrists like Kaine and Durbin. And Bernie referred to Israel’s actions as a “slaughter” and “an attempt to destroy a people”, so I’m not really inclined to criticize him for failing some terminological purity test. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4894 "2025-07-31T02:45:51Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > And Bernie referred to Israel’s actions as a “slaughter” and “an attempt to destroy a people”, so I’m not really inclined to criticize him for failing some terminological purity test Yeah, i don’t feel like the precise vocabulary is terribly important at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4895 "2025-07-31T03:45:16Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Haven’t seen a breakdown of the vote, but I assume almost all the yea votes were Democrats, which means the majority of the Democratic caucus now favors cutting off aid, including some centrists like Kaine and Durbin. …just this month, senior Democrats posed for a photo with the person with arrest warrants from the ICC for the war crime of starvation as a method of warfare; and the crimes against humanity of murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts. [![](https://truthout.org/app/uploads/2025/07/2025_0711-netanyahu-group-2048x1366.jpg) ](https://truthout.org/app/uploads/2025/07/2025_0711-netanyahu-group-2048x1366.jpg) From Former Israeli ambassador, Michael Herzog: > [@](#): > > The Biden administration allowed Israel unprecedented leeway to carry out its military offensive, despite the enormous death and devastation it inflicted on Gaza. Former Israeli ambassador, Michael Herzog, made a startling admission about Biden’s support: “God did the State of Israel a favour that Biden was the president during this period. We fought [in Gaza] for over a year and the administration never came to us and said, ‘ceasefire now.’ It never did. And that’s not to be taken for granted.” His remarks encapsulated a broader sentiment that the White House gave Benjamin Netanyahu all the political space he needed to execute the military offensive, which has claimed the lives of more than 52,000 Palestinians, mainly women and children. > **[Biden never pressured Israel for ceasefire, as Israeli officials boast of...](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20250429-biden-never-pressured-israel-for-ceasefire-as-israeli-officials-boast-of-exploiting-us-support/)** > > The administration of former US President, Joe Biden, knowingly allowed Israel’s genocide in Gaza to continue long after it had lost any clear military objective, with senior officials in Washingto… > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > And Bernie referred to Israel’s actions as a “slaughter” and “an attempt to destroy a people”, so I’m not really inclined to criticize him for failing some terminological purity test. This isn’t some “terminological purity test.” It’s about facing reality. Many Democrats, including leadership, support Netanyahu and his goals. We wouldn’t be where we are right now if Biden and his administration didn’t back this war right up until the end. That AOC voted to fund arms and Bernie won’t call it the G word are illustrative of _how far the Democrats have to go_, even from the progressives, not a “purity test.” And I don’t think they are capable. Just look who is in that picture. I know Cory Booker is trying to hide: but he’s there. I have zero faith that my own government, little faith in the opposition, that the Democrats, the EU, Starmers Labour or the Republicans are going to do _anything_ to stop what we are seeing in Gaza. And while what Bernie is doing is better than nothing, he’s still _pulling his punches_. The pro-Palestinian movement is extremely cynical right now, and rightly so. They have little trust and faith in the process. Trying to recontextualise it as if _they_ are the problem isn’t going to help. They have little faith that “symbolic victories” will mean anything more than Gaza dropping out of the news cycle. Things like Biden’s Pier, or the airdrops, were nothing more than PR exercises that allowed the starvation and slaughter to continue. My point here is again not a “purity test.” It’s a _wake-up_ call. Mamdani and Corbyn are showing the way. Stop worrying about offending anyone. Just speak the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4896 "2025-07-31T15:09:15Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That AOC voted to fund arms and Bernie won’t call it the G word are illustrative of _how far the Democrats have to go_, even from the progressives, not a “purity test.” I’d say it’s more an example of how the left is eating itself alive. AOC didn’t want to cut _Iron Dome_ funding because she didn’t think having more dead Israeli civilians is going to make Israel more receptive to end the fighting. And literally the only criticism the Anti Israel crowd has of Bernie is, “Uh uh uh! You didn’t say the magic word!”. His actual position is actually indistinguishable from what you’ve advocated, BanquetBear. As someone who is, obviously, opposed to the US cutting aid to Israel, I’m not about to interrupt my opponents when they’re making a mistake. But the unhinged attacks I see coming at Bernie and AOC on BlueSky and elsewhere makee worry about political violence much more than they make me worry about effective political opposition to my position. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2025, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4897 "2025-07-31T17:04:22Z")
And I believe AOC voted against the final bill (which included iron dome funding and other weapons to Israel), but voted against an amendment to specifically cut the iron done funding while leaving everything else in the bill. AOC and Bernie seem to be in the unfortunate position of having genuine beliefs and not being robotic enough to avoid ending up in out of context tiktoks watched by people who have no real influence on American politics. If they wanted to be Israel shills or whatever they could simply not be pushing to end all US military aid to Israel and they would actually be doing less to oppose Israel in practical terms while also not getting the scrutiny for the lefty backlash to occur. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=237) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=239)