# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 241
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4938 "2025-08-01T12:49:00Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > As far as I can tell those four people have come out against each other on this at all. …I’m not claiming they have come out publicly. My post was about “politics 101.” How the movement should just go along with AOC and Bernie even if many are more aligned with the tactics and strategy of Tlaib and Omar. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4939 "2025-08-01T12:49:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > How do you decide who should be “leading the agenda?” And why should it be Bernie and AOC instead of Tlaib and Omar? It depends on whether you want to get things passed or not. AOC and Sanders are both much more effective politicians in the sense of successfully pushing policy through Congress, and in my Liberal movement, that’s one of the most major factors that I want us to pick candidates based on. The Progressive movement doesn’t always seem to pick its leaders by the same criteria. 🤷‍♂️ One very good internal analysis I saw a long time ago suggested that this is because the movement is more concerned with critiquing power than wielding it, and I think that’s very true. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4940 "2025-08-01T12:52:04Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Perhaps it would be cheaper if Israel stopped bombing them and shooting them? It would be cheapest of all if Hamas agreed to disarm. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …obviously, by your logic, not enough. Do you think civilian shelters will save Palestinian children from Israeli bombs and sniper rifles? If Hamas didn’t immediately seize the shelter and start fighting out of it, then yes, civilian bomb shelters would obviously save many Palestinian lives, just like Israeli bomb shelters saved many Israeli lives when Iran lobbed ballistic missiles at apartment buildings. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4941 "2025-08-01T12:52:22Z")
By “go along" you mean not send them threats and vandalize their offices? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4942 "2025-08-01T12:55:44Z")
…do you want me to condemn the death threats and the vandalisation of the offices _again_? I’ll do it in caps this time. I LOUDLY CONDEMN THE DEATH THREATS AGAINST AOC AND THE VANDALISATION OF HER OFFICES. There you go. People shouldn’t do that. And since we don’t even know who did either of these things, let’s stop assuming it was done by supporters of Tlaib and Omar and just condemn the crimes for the crimes that they are. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4943 "2025-08-01T12:59:32Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It would be cheapest of all if Hamas agreed to disarm. …no, it would be cheaper if Israel stopped dropping the bombs, shooting them and starving them. > [@Babale](#): > > If Hamas didn’t immediately seize the shelter and start fighting out of it, Perhaps at the very least stop the starvation. Can Israel do that at least? Let UNRWA do their job. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4944 "2025-08-01T13:02:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Let UNRWA do their job. The problem is that they weren’t doing their job; they were arming Hamas and holding hostages in the homes of their staff and housing Hamas under their HQ. [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-had-command-tunnel-under-un-gaza-hq-israeli-military-says-2024-02-10/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-had-command-tunnel-under-un-gaza-hq-israeli-military-says-2024-02-10/) > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …no, it would be cheaper if Israel stopped dropping the bombs, shooting them and starving them. If a terrorist group from right next door ever does an Oct 7 style attack on New Zealand, you’re welcome to negotiate with them as much as you’d like. But the idea that Israel should tolerate Hamas continuing to exist as an armed group is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4945 "2025-08-01T13:12:00Z")
Where does the top Hamas leadership currently reside? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4946 "2025-08-01T13:20:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The problem is that they weren’t doing their job; they were arming Hamas and holding hostages in the homes of their staff and housing Hamas under their HQ. …the title of that article: > [@Reuters](#): > > Hamas had command tunnel under UN Gaza HQ, **Israel says** It’s an _unverified claim_. From UNRWA: > [@](#): > > UNRWA is not responsible for anything that may or may not lie under its premises. When suspected tunnels were discovered under UNRWA facilities, the Agency sealed the cavities by injecting cement, protested to the de facto authorities, and immediately informed the Palestinian Authority, the State of Israel as well as its main donors and reported to the UN General Assembly. Until the war started in Gaza, UNRWA undertook regular neutrality assessments of its facilities. This included that there is no misuse of its facilities, that premises are clearly marked as UN premises, that signs about them being weapons-free areas are present at entrances, and that the internal and external walls did not have any messaging that breached the neutrality of all premises. > [@](#): > > **The Facts** : There has never been evidence provided to substantiate allegations of such horrific actions by anyone from UNRWA. Please refer to the outcomes of the OIOS investigation with regard to the alleged involvement of staff in the 7 October attacks. [https://www.unrwa.org/unrwa-claims-versus-facts-2025](https://www.unrwa.org/unrwa-claims-versus-facts-2025) > [@](#): > > Over the past 20 months, the Government of Israel has continuously made unsubstantiated claims against UNRWA and its neutrality. > > These claims have put the lives of UNRWA staff at serious risk and harmed the reputation of the Agency. > > In a letter I have recently written to the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Israel, I repeated the concrete steps that UNRWA has taken for more than a decade in cooperation with the Government of Israel in line with transparency and neutrality. > > In that regard, the Agency has requested on numerous occasions for cooperation from the Government of Israel by providing information and evidence to substantiate the accusations made against UNRWA. > > To date, UNRWA has not received any response, nor has the Government of Israel shared any sufficient evidence, to back up these very serious claims against the Agency and its personnel. > **[UNRWA Commissioner General statement on letter sent to the Israeli Minister...](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/unrwa-commissioner-general-statement-on-letter-sent-to-the-israeli-minister-of-foreign-affairs-regarding-the-government-of-israels-continuous-unsubstantiated-claims-against-the-agency/)** > >   27 May 2025 Over the past 20 months, the Government of Israel has continuously made unsubstantiated claims against UNRWA and its neutrality. These claims have put the lives of UNRWA staff at serious risk and harmed the reputation of the... 20 months of allegations. Multiple requests for information and evidence. They haven’t received a single response. > [@](#): > > If a terrorist group from right next door ever does an Oct 7 style attack on New Zealand, you’re welcome to negotiate with them as much as you’d like. But the idea that Israel should tolerate Hamas continuing to exist as an armed group is ludicrous. Do you know what I hope my government wouldn’t do? I would hope they wouldn’t deliberately target journalists, aid workers, healthcare workers, hospitals, schools, churches, Mosques in response. I would hope that my government would abide by the Geneva conventions and International Humanitarian law. I would hope that my government wouldn’t set up a siege, stopping everything from food and water and medical equipment and baby food and tent from getting into the country. I would hope my country didn’t flatten most of the buildings and force the surviving population into less than 10% of the land, having to live in squalor and filth. I would hope that my government wouldn’t intentionally engineer a famine. And if it did: I’d be doing everything in my power to stop them. > [@Dorjan](#): > > Where does the top Hamas leadership currently reside? Considering what is happening to the Palestinians in Gaza right now, why does this even matter? Open the gates. Let in the food. Let the trucks in by the thousands, every single day. Don’t let it stop. And go find those top Hamas leadership and take them out with pagers. You don’t need to continue the siege. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4947 "2025-08-01T13:22:28Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Hamas had command tunnel under UN Gaza HQ, **Israel says** > > It’s an _unverified claim_. > > From UNRWA: In other words, UNRWA SAYS: ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4948 "2025-08-01T13:26:28Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Considering what is happening to the Palestinians in Gaza right now, why does this even matter? It matters in the context of what Israel is actually trying to achieve at this point. If their goal is eliminating Hamas, why haven’t they taken out its leadership? It was an honest question because IIRC they are in Qatar. That might be different now, I don’t know. But it toppling Hamas is the goal I do wonder why they haven’t been taken out. Mossad is quite capable of it, and if they are in Qatar I don’t see why that would stop the Israeli government. They were willing to directly attack Iran, an actual threat. Qatar isn’t going to do a thing. The continued existence of Hamas leadership does make me question Israel’s actual goals in this conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4949 "2025-08-01T13:28:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > In other words, UNRWA SAYS: …as opposed to “Israel says?” Do you think UNRWA are lying here, and that Israel HAS provided the information and evidence? Are you able to provide it? > [@Dorjan](#): > > It matters in the context of what Israel is actually trying to achieve at this point. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4950 "2025-08-01T13:34:20Z")
I don’t think anyone here has an issue with the progressives voting differently on amendments or having different opinions on if Israel is carrying out a genocide or a horrific slaughter that might not technically be a genocide. The only thing we’ve been harping on is the hate aimed at some of them by morons who don’t realize they’re on the same side. I think Rashida Tlaib and Bernie Sanders do realize they’re on the same side and I don’t think them not being in 100% agreement is an issue for either of them. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4951 "2025-08-01T13:36:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Do you think UNRWA are lying here, Yes, \*obviously\*. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4952 "2025-08-01T13:38:11Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > The only thing we’ve been harping on is the hate aimed at some of them by morons who don’t realize they’re on the same side. …I don’t advocate for hate. I’m just expressing disagreement. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4953 "2025-08-01T13:38:40Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Yes, _obviously_. …then show me the information and evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4954 "2025-08-01T13:43:23Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …then show me the information and evidence > **[Directly beneath UNRWA’s Gaza headquarters, IDF uncovers top secret Hamas...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/directly-beneath-unrwas-gaza-headquarters-idf-uncovers-top-secret-hamas-data-center/)** > > Subterranean facility for terror group's intelligence needs, beneath UN complex in upscale Rimal neighborhood, discovered after interrogations of Palestinian prisoners This journalist went through the tunnels and took pictures. He saw the Hamas barracks rooms and the data center. There was similar testimony from the journalist in the previous article I linked, so it’s pretty silly to claim that it’s just Israel’s word. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4955 "2025-08-01T13:53:52Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This journalist went through the tunnels and took pictures. He saw the Hamas barracks rooms and the data center. There was similar testimony from the journalist in the previous article I linked, so it’s pretty silly to claim that it’s just Israel’s word. …that’s an _embedded journalist_. It’s a _newspaper article_. He saw some rooms people had been living in. A bunch of computer racks. All of that is in the public domain. None of that is actual _evidence of the allegations_. It’s still just unverified claims. If the IDF just sent UNRWA a link to the article, do you really think that’s sufficient? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4956 "2025-08-01T14:00:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …that’s an _embedded journalist_. It’s a _newspaper article_. He saw some rooms people had been living in. A bunch of computer racks. He saw a _giant fortified fucking tunnel that all this shit was in_, my dude. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > All of that is in the public domain. None of that is actual _evidence of the allegations_. The tunnel network under the UNRWA HQ is not evidence of a tunnel network under the UNRWA HQ? OK man. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It’s still just unverified claims. If the IDF just sent UNRWA a link to the article, do you really think that’s sufficient? ……………..What? Why does the IDF need to send UNRWA an article about UNRWA’s own HQ? Sufficient for _what_? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2025, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4957 "2025-08-01T14:10:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > He saw a _giant fortified fucking tunnel that all this shit was in_, my dude. …I’ve seen the “giant fortified fucking tunnel.” It’s just a tunnel. > [@Babale](#): > > The tunnel network under the UNRWA HQ is not evidence of a tunnel network under the UNRWA HQ? The tunnel is just evidence of a tunnel. UNRWA can’t verify whether or not it was actually under the UNRWA HQ or not. It doesn’t know if those were “Hamas datacentres” or something else. > [@Babale](#): > > Sufficient for _what_? Sufficient for the allegations that have been made. Because the consequences of this sustained campaign against UNRWA have been devastating for the Palestinians living in Gaza. Its ultimately lead to _famine_. So if you are going to make incendiary claims about the organisation, you better be able to back it up. But all you’ve got are a _handful of newspaper articles making unverified allegations_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=240) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=242)