# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 243
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2025, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4978 "2025-08-04T23:22:41Z")
…just to give you an example of how dystopian life is in Gaza. This video shows Nurse Ali Abu Muteir reaction to finding his mother amongst the victims bought to Nasser Hospital: she was shot by a sniper while inside her tent. Spoiled for upsetting content. [https://x.com/gazanotice/status/1952359414436135289](https://x.com/gazanotice/status/1952359414436135289) From the other side, here is the “most moral army in the world” in action. > The destruction in Gaza is near total. International reporters were allowed on “propaganda” flights that were dropping food aid. But the coverage was anything _but_ positive for the IDF. I posted the BBC report above. From the ITV: > The footage shows a wasteland. A city in ruins. Hospitals, schools, old people’s home, not “caught in the crossfire”, but destroyed with controlled demolitions. The full footage by Dalal Mawad from Al Araby TV, captured despite not being allowed, is here. > Fadi Quran, a human rights campaigner, makes the following observations: > [@](#): > > If Nazi Germany represented industrial-era genocide, and Rwanda exemplified the machete-era of mass killing, Israel’s conduct in Gaza signals the algorithmic age of genocide; one where data, machine learning, surveillance, drones and fighter jets mediate between soldier and victim. > > No genocide is executed identically because no nation kills with identical tools. > > Israel’s capabilities, backed by US weapons systems and domestic tech giants, shape the form the violence takes. > > What is most chilling is not only the scale of destruction, but how much worse it might have been. Were it not for the persistence of Gazans documenting their own obliteration, with mobile phones in one hand and their dead literally in the other, the pace of Israel’s assault would likely have accelerated. > > In an era of real-time witnessing, their footage created friction against an otherwise frictionless war machine. > > That’s why we have the massive assassination of journalists, the constant attempts to put Gaza in the dark by cutting internet connections, and the policies being pushed to silence Palestinian voices on social media. > > But can you imagine what Israel would’ve done if none of the images of the starved babies of Gaza reached audiences across the globe? > And they are observations I find _haunting_. Because the use of algorithms were established early in the conflict from reporting like this: > **[‘Lavender’: The AI machine directing Israel’s bombing spree in Gaza](https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/)** > > The Israeli army has marked tens of thousands of Gazans as suspects for assassination, using an AI targeting system with little human oversight and a permissive policy for casualties, +972 and Local Call reveal. And then I think about the systematic targeting of journalists, academics, doctors. And I can’t help think of the numbers. On average, a hundred people are killed in Gaza every single day. Outside of the launch of major operations, (like when Israel most recently breached the ceasefire) it’s always been about 100, not much variation, while those trying to get food averaged about 30 per day. Consistently. Every single day. I think about the obsession with _calories_. And how they only allocate just enough calories to survive, and not one calorie more. And I think describing this as “algorithmic” is the right way to describe it. I used to think of Gaza as a “concentration camp.” I no longer think that description is apt. It’s a _death camp_. Israel isn’t going to relent. The expanded military operations are a sign of what many of us were warning was going to happen. There really is one option now to protect the Palestinians in Gaza: > [@MEM](#): > > President Higgins expressed support for the UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres to invoke powers under Chapter Seven of the UN Charter—a mechanism that allows for enforcement action, including the use of force, without Security Council approval if deemed necessary. > > “I am personally in favor of the secretary-general of the UN using Chapter Seven procedure, by which, whether or not the Security Council agrees, and even if there’s a blockage, the right exists for the secretary-general to seek to put together an international defense of a corridor,” he said. I’m not an expert in international law, but I think the President is wrong in his answer here, and that the United States would almost certainly block any action. But the two options on the table are, either some international force will have to intervene, or the world has to open up their doors to letting the Palestinians in. The latter of course would be ethnic cleansing. And I don’t think there are many places in the world would be safe for the Palestinians anyway. There is an underlying bigotry that explains why so many of us tolerated this slaughter for so long. And that won’t go away if they move in down the street from you. I for one, will advocate our government to take as many Palestinian refugees that we can. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2025, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4979 "2025-08-04T23:39:55Z")
…and just as I post this, I learn that the head of nursing at Nasser Hospital’s Department of Internal Medicine, Rajab Abul -Enin, was just killed in his tent along with his daughter and three others. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2025, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4980 "2025-08-05T00:34:23Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The full footage by Dalal Mawad from Al Araby TV, captured despite not being allowed The reports i read said that journalists were told they weren’t allowed to take photos, and if they did, the flights would be stopped. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4981 "2025-08-06T01:06:05Z")
Interview with a very experienced aid worker on how the GHF is completely incapable of feeding every hungry Gazan even if Israel wanted them to. It’s a bunch of amateur idiot evangelicals. [https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-nightly/2025/08/04/the-challenge-in-expanding-aid-to-gaza-00493181](https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-nightly/2025/08/04/the-challenge-in-expanding-aid-to-gaza-00493181) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2025, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4982 "2025-08-06T01:34:54Z")
…just on the GHF: Sometimes it helps to see something visually to get your head around the scale of things. Here is a map of how the aid distribution hubs used to be set up, and how they are now. > Note how now there are no distribution points in the north. Not a single one. Look at what used to be there. Now there is nothing. There aren’t any hospitals operating in the north. But there are still people in the north. We just aren’t hearing much from them any more, those that are still alive. And remember they used to be aid distribution hubs. The GHF only had FOOD distribution hubs. Almost nothing else, including WATER, is coming in. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2025, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4983 "2025-08-07T00:39:49Z")
For years and years I’ve heard many Israelis and Zionists insist that Israel never gets a fair shake internationally, and that whatever they do, the worst spin is assumed, and Israel is always presumed to be in the wrong, etc. And I think there was some truth to that. Israel wasn’t always doing apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and apparent genocide. Israel sometimes had decent leaders who did the best they could in very difficult circumstances. But somehow it appears that this grievance has pushed many Israelis and Zionists to the point that, even if it’s not fully conscious, after the Oct 7th attacks, they feel that they might as well do all the bad things, if they’re going to be blamed for it no matter what. It’s just so terribly depressing and tragic. All this suffering is just going to harm Israel and Israelis in the long term. And it (the immediate starvation and other terrible suffering and injustice faced by Palestinians in Gaza and the WB) is almost entirely under Israel’s control. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2025, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4984 "2025-08-07T06:05:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Israel wasn’t always doing apartheid No, Israel has been an apartheid state from its founding. It was founded and run by people who committed ethnic cleansing atrocities against Palestinians before independence, so no real surprises there. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2025, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4985 "2025-08-07T08:09:09Z")
If someone is really doing apartheid and genocide, I do not buy as an excuse that they were somehow “forced” into it. By the way, even if the first generation of founders/leaders after independence were bad that way, no one is forced to continue the historical tradition. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2025, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4986 "2025-08-07T08:24:12Z")
I’m not convinced of that, but we can leave it for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2025, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4987 "2025-08-07T16:46:26Z")
> **[Israel’s Settler Right Is Preparing to Annex Gaza](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2025/08/right-wing-israeli-settlers-annex-gaza/683776/?gift=Y5UOGK3oJJO3esRHvDP7oRU-qIrZlDHi_2XOe-kpqFM&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)** > > A radical campaign that began in 2023 is entering its final phase. Are the IDF-defenders ready to rationalize the annexation of Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2025, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4988 "2025-08-08T13:37:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are the IDF-defenders ready to rationalize the annexation of Gaza? Ready? It’s why they invaded Gaza in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2025, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4989 "2025-08-08T13:56:34Z")
I remember your saying so very early on. But while some factions in Israel no doubt have always been on board to annex Gaza, i think there are a lot of Israelis who support the IDF in general, but do not support annexation. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2025, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4990 "2025-08-08T14:07:04Z")
Israel is not lacking in brilliant minds with altruistic goals, but those folks are not in control. Netanyahu and the IDF maintain control by sucking the US tit for their resources. Annexation of Gaza is obviously US policy. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2025, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4991 "2025-08-08T14:48:43Z")
I do not think that what is coming to pass in Gaza rises to the level of Biblical destruction, because that would be the consequence of a plan, and the Israeli government does not have one. “Annex Gaza” may be what they (predictably) are saying, but you can bet that was not suggested by the IDF— which do not want to figure out how to deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2025, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4992 "2025-08-08T15:35:20Z")
I’ve seen a bunch of articles like this recently. And yes, I trust MSF more than I trust the IDF as a source. > **[US-backed aid distribution points in Gaza are sites of orchestrated killing](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/us-backed-aid-distribution-points-gaza-are-sites-orchestrated-killing)** > > The so-called Gaza Humanitarian Foundation is a deadly scheme that must be dismantled. People need access to food and lifesaving aid now. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2025, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4993 "2025-08-08T18:50:51Z")
I did not mean that I doubt there is killing, even orchestrated killing. I just meant that — this is more a gut feeling — it is more of a developing, ad hoc clusterfuck than the Israeli government officially decreeing in 2023 an all-that-pisseth-against-the-wall old-school genocide— that would have at least been a concrete plan concerning the future of Gaza. I do not think that the IDF wants to be tasked with maintaining order and providing essential services in Gaza, not because they are nice people but for obvious reasons. By the way, would not actual annexation of Gaza force the normal civil authorities to provide security, food, water, sanitation, power, Internet, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2025, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4994 "2025-08-08T19:12:16Z")
I’ve said it before. The decades-long steady annexation of West Bank land proves that Israel\* doesn’t really want a two state solution. At this point I believe it’s literally _physically_ impossible. So this is the logical next step. I don’t know how they will get rid of the people without going full Mid Century Genocide, but it’s the goal. \*Please don’t get on my back for painting with a broad brush. These are state-level actions just the same as if I said “the US is upending the global trade system” even though I, as an American, don’t support it ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2025, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4995 "2025-08-09T00:50:24Z")
…the dehumanisation of the Palestinian people at times is simply quite unbelievable. Here is the Union of European Football Associations announcing the death of Suleiman al-Obeid. > [@UEFA](#): > > Farewell to Suleiman al-Obeid, the ‘Palestinian Pelé’. > > A talent who gave hope to countless children, even in the darkest of times. > It sounds like he might have been killed in a car accident. Or cancer. But he, along with dozens of other people that day, was murdered trying to get food from a Gaza Humanitarian Foundation distribution point. At least 265 Palestinian footballers have been killed so far since October 8th. That’s a low estimate. The higher estimate, including low level players is about 439. Estimates for the total amount of sports people killed range between 6 and 800 at least. Yet UEFA and FIFA and most of the sporting bodies around the world remain _silent_. As for the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation: another 51 people were killed trying to get food yesterday. It’s incredible how quickly this became _normalised_. It was only a few months ago, Bari Weiss’s propaganda network tried to convince us that this was all “fake news.” But there is nothing normal about between 30 and 50 people getting slaughtered by sniper fire and tanks every single day doing nothing more than trying to get food. And for those keeping count: the numbers reported killed yesterday was 98, including the 51 trying to get food from the GHF. It’s the same magical numbers. On average, 100 people per day. Doctors Without Borders released this report yesterday: > [@Doctors Without Borders](#): > > THIS IS NOT AID. > THIS IS ORCHESTRATED > KILLING > … > In practice, the militarised food distribution scheme has weaponised > starvation and curated suffering. Distributions at GHF sites have resulted in extreme levels of violence and killings, primarily of young Palestinian men, but also of women and children, who have gone to the sites in the hope of receiving food. > … > Over a seven-week period from early June to late July 2025, MSF’s two primary healthcare centres in Rafah received 1,380 casualties, including 28 dead bodies, coming from GHF sites.4 Among the injured were 174 people with gunshot wounds, including women and children. > 5 As part of our response to mass casualties from GHF-run distribution sites, MSF teams treated 71 children with gunshot wounds, 25 of them under 15 years old.6 We triaged an eight-year-old girl with a gunshot wound to the chest and a five-year-old boy with severe head trauma, both of them injured near the GHF sites. We worked to stabilise injured children who arrived from the distribution sites alone, dazed and with little chance of survival. Much, much more at the link. (PDF link) > **[MSF-Gaza-ThisIsNotAid-FINAL.pdf](https://www.msf.org/sites/default/files/2025-08/MSF-Gaza-ThisIsNotAid-FINAL.pdf)** > > 2.63 MB The current estimates are at least 1300 killed trying to get aid from the GHF and over 12,000 wounded. The report is already well out of date. This is either the most pathetic, useless, poorly organised food distribution operation in the world, or as the MSF lay out: entirely orchestrated and deliberate. The one thing it _isn’t_ though, is _defensible_. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2025, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4996 "2025-08-09T05:59:01Z")
It’s a giant rat trap. Bait it with food and kill the ones captured. If they don’t kill them the first time they’ll get them later, or or the intended targets starve to death. Either way is fine with the idf except the shooters don’t get the thrill of shooting desperate people. Extra points if they’re children. I can’t stand that the u.s. is financing this horror. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2025, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4997 "2025-08-10T10:09:04Z")
…this is the feedback a Republican representative is getting at a Republican Town Hall: > Stalwarts of the right like Piers Morgan, Tucker Carlson and Candice Owens have platformed pro-Palestinian voices over the last few months. That’s having an impact. Their opinions on other things remains odious. But there is clearly a divide building between what the leadership (around the world) are saying and doing and the way many in the public want. And the Democrats are in danger of being outflanked. They really need to get off the fence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=242) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=244)