# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 247
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2025, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5058 "2025-08-16T01:06:51Z")
So the IDF was lying about the journalist they killed? What a shock! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2025, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5059 "2025-08-16T05:55:53Z")
Yeah, all part of the _hasbara_. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2025, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5060 "2025-08-16T13:40:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Of course- _unbiased_ locals.🙄 Who would never let armed Hamas terrorists tell them what to write. If Israel wanted unbiased reporting, they could have let non-local reporters into Gaza. Why didn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2025, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5061 "2025-08-16T13:49:45Z")
I sort of get why some Israelis believe anything coming from outside of Israel is necessarily anti-Israeli and dishonest ('cause that’s what they’ve been told all their lives). What I don’t get is how any Israelis could expect non-Israelis to just straight up accept this bullshit. No, I’m not going to just accept that journalist was Hamas because the IDF says so, with absolutely zero verifiable evidence. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2025, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5062 "2025-08-16T14:07:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What I don’t get is how any Israelis could expect non-Israelis to just straight up accept this bullshit. Unfortunately, many non-Israelis _do_ just straight up accept it. They know their audience better than their audience knows them. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2025, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5063 "2025-08-16T14:40:45Z")
At least in my experience, the Americans who still support Israel wholeheartedly do so for religious or familial reasons. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2025, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5064 "2025-08-16T14:52:39Z")
The world runs on bull shit. It’s all propaganda. Framing Israel’s murderous aggression in Gaza as a justifiable war is solely Israeli propaganda. Thousands of Gazans have been murdered and many thousands more are in concentration camps, but not as the result of a war. There was no war. There were not even battles. Israel is engaged in the orderly demolition of Gaza. Much of it carried out by\*\*[civilian contractors](https://www.timesofisrael.com/outsourced-and-exposed-civilian-contractors-are-on-the-frontlines-of-the-gaza-war/)\*\* rather than the IDF. There are no military goals to be achieved in Gaza. No war goals, just propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2025, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5065 "2025-08-17T13:22:27Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Unfortunately, many non-Israelis _do_ just straight up accept it. They know their audience better than their audience knows them. …one of the reasons is media coverage like this: > [@Globe and Mail](#): > > Family killed after Gaza airstrike despite Israel’s precautions to not harm civilians > That was an editorial decision. The assault on Gaza began yesterday, although it doesn’t start “officially” until today. Reports from the ground of massive bombing in the north. There was a flood of people I follow saying their goodbyes last night. From Palestinian reporter Abdulruhman Ismail: > [@](#): > > Breaking : The spokesperson of the Israeli military has issued a grave statement: > > "Based on directives from the political leadership, and as part of the army’s preparations to transfer civilians from combat zones to the south of the Gaza Strip for their safety, starting tomorrow (Sunday), the provision of tents and shelter equipment for Gaza’s residents will resume. > > Relief supplies will be transported through the Kerem Shalom crossing by the United Nations and international aid organizations, following strict inspections by the Border Crossings Authority under the Ministry of Defense. > Just to note the significance of this: it’s been well over _five months_ since Israel have allowed tents into Gaza. They are doing this _now_ because the new offensive will cause massive displacement in Gaza City and the north towards the south. This is ethnic cleansing. But media like CNN frame it like this: > **[Israel says it is in talks with several countries about taking in displaced...](https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/14/middleeast/israel-palestinians-gaza-displaced-intl)** > > Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says talks are underway with several countries about taking in Palestinians displaced by the war in Gaza. It doesn’t surprise me at all that people straight up accept this bullshit. I’m resigned to the fact that this is the world we live in now. There really is nothing that we can do. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2025, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5066 "2025-08-17T14:29:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, I’m not going to just accept that journalist was Hamas because the IDF says so, with absolutely zero verifiable evidence. Right? I wouldn’t accept that from my own government/military, even in the before times. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2025, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5067 "2025-08-17T14:35:45Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Right? I wouldn’t accept that from my own government/military, even in the before times. …just curious: did you accept the “Hamas has command and control bunkers in hospitals” line? Because almost everybody bought that at the start of the war, and I’d suggest that many, if not most people, despite the complete lack of evidence, still buy it now. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2025, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5068 "2025-08-17T14:42:07Z")
I honestly have no idea. It’s clearly beneath neither Hamas nor the various organs of Israel to lie. What I know is that the people in Gaza are suffering disproportionately, with no apparent goal, and no end in sight. And that Netanyahu seems to be killing thousands of people to save his own skin. I have close and important connections to Israel, both personal and business (I am not Jewish). It is not the same place and people it was before this, and I am worried that they end up worse off when the dust settles. I don’t believe there’s been a real desire for a solution on the part of Israel’s various governments for 20 years. Status quo kept the Palestinians down, and they slowly, inch by inch, ground away at the West Bank. I don’t think a Palestinian state is geographically possible at this point, so I’d be very interested to hear what TPTB in Israel think a long-term solution is. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2025, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5069 "2025-08-17T14:53:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > What he is interested in, for his political survival, is prolonging the war. It’s the best excuse for not doing anything else domestically, including not launching an independent investigation of October 7th. His corruption trial would probably be delayed if there’s hectic fighting going on. It’s one abominable irony indeed, that Hamas’ show of force provided an excuse for Netanyahu to go unfettered. And to give another example of how even “stable” democracies can be helpless in the face of a lawfully elected/appointed leadersip who decide “well, who’s going to stop us?” ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2025, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5070 "2025-08-17T14:56:06Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > I honestly have no idea. It’s clearly beneath neither Hamas nor the various organs of Israel to lie. …with respect: that’s a cop-out. Nobody’s asking you to “trust Hamas.” It’s about the evidence. And Israel has carried out a systematic campaign to target and destroy the healthcare system in Gaza. They claimed that hospitals, notably but not limited to Al Shifa, had command and control bunkers underneath. That Hamas were using them as bases of operations. These are positive claims. And in order for hospitals to lose their protections under the Geneva Conventions and International Humanitarian Law, Israel are required to prove not just the presence of these alleged bunkers: but to prove that hospitals were used for “acts harmful to the enemy.” Its Israel’s burden to prove. Over the course of this “war” Israel have targeted and attacked every single hospital multiple times. It destroyed a number of them. But the most evidence they have ever provided was a few videos of largely empty tunnels and a statistical handful of weapons. So if at this stage you are still in the “I honestly have no idea, but I don’t believe Hamas or the IDF” then I’d suggest to you that the propaganda and talking points _are doing their job_. And while you won’t accept that the journalist was Hamas because the IDF said so, you are open to the possibility that hospitals had command and control bunkers _just because the IDF said so_, and for literally no other reason. Because there is no evidence at all to suggest this is true. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2025, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5071 "2025-08-17T14:58:37Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …with respect: that’s a cop-out. It’s not a cop-out because I haven’t read enough on that particular claim to form an opinion on that particular claim. I’m aware of it, but not of the details. It’s not a cop-out because I’m not avoiding criticism of Israel- my post is clearly critical. I just don’t think debating the specifics of individual claims of wrongdoing mean all that much when I can see such widespread wrongdoing. ETA: And it isn’t like I think Hamas _wouldn’t_ do such a thing. I don’t want to appear sympathetic to Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2025, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5072 "2025-08-17T15:21:25Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > It’s not a cop-out because I haven’t read enough on that particular claim to form an opinion on that particular claim. I’m aware of it, but not of the details. …well, now you know. There were no Hamas command and control bunkers under hospitals in Gaza. Hamas didn’t hide in the hospitals. Hamas didn’t use the hospitals for military operations. If there was evidence of these things, the IDF would have produced it. But as I said: they’ve shown a handful of near empty tunnels and a few weapons. And often those weapons are almost _certainly_ planted. Like this video: > **[Weapons hidden in incubators in the Kamal Adwan hospital](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNjYlhsUW4s%2F)** > > \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_We are the IDF. Our purpose is to preserve the State of Israel, to protect its independence, and to stop its enemies from disrupting everyday lif... I honestly can’t stress enough _how little evidence exists to support the IDF claims_. The hospitals were simply _hospitals_. And again: if at this stage people still don’t know the IDF were lying about the hospitals (just like they lied about gold under Lebanon’s hospitals) then the propaganda and talking points _have been effective_. > [@OldOlds](#): > > And it isn’t like I think Hamas _wouldn’t_ do such a thing. Well they _didn’t_. > [@OldOlds](#): > > I don’t want to appear sympathetic to Hamas. The evidence doesn’t care if you are sympathetic to Hamas or not. I’ve been accused multiple times here in this thread of “spreading Hamas propaganda” even though I’ve condemned Hamas and the atrocities they committed over and over and over again. I’ve learned to stop caring about that. The truth is the only thing that matters. My point again is that the propaganda machine has been very very very effective. And while the particular one under discussion (journalists secretly leading double lives as Hamas terrorists) seems far-fetched: they have been getting away with outrageous lies since well before this “war” even began. So obviously people will fall for this one as well, even if this particular one didn’t happen to fool you. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2025, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5073 "2025-08-17T15:37:06Z")
…since we are talking about hospitals: From Dr Hussam Hammouda earlier today: > [@](#): > > Good morning… > Behind me is the courtyard of the Baptist Al-Ahli Hospital, which was bombed yesterday, killing 7 innocent people. > Since I started my shift this morning, the shelling hasn’t stopped for a moment. > The situation is terrifying extremely dangerous. We are living on the edge of death. > I can’t find any statement from the IDF outlining why the courtyard was attacked. Which makes this, yet again, another IDF warcrime. Because hospitals can only lose their protection if it was used for “acts harmful to the enemy.” But they aren’t even bothering to claim that any more. They do this every single day, and yet _still_ people have “no idea.” ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2025, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5074 "2025-08-17T18:43:08Z")
I remember something about target lists being generated by an AI system which figured out who might have purchased a stick of gum at a convenience store the same week it was visited by a Hamas member. (In particular, journalists interview terrorists, politicians, and warlords, so imagine how the computer ranks them.) There were not too many statements about “why” any particular target was chosen. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2025, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5075 "2025-08-17T22:21:45Z")
…I don’t know about the specific incidents in question, however Israels use of AI is so well documented there is a Wikipedia page about it. > **[AI-assisted targeting in the Gaza Strip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI-assisted_targeting_in_the_Gaza_Strip)** > > As part of the Gaza war, the Israel Defense Force (IDF) has used artificial intelligence to rapidly and automatically perform much of the process of determining what to bomb. Israel has greatly expanded the bombing of the Gaza Strip, which in previous wars had been limited by the Israeli Air Force running out of targets. > These tools include the Gospel, an AI which automatically reviews surveillance data looking for buildings, equipment and people thought to belong to the enemy, and upon finding... The systems are given names like “Lavender” and “Gospel.” ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2025, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5076 "2025-08-18T00:13:49Z")
No one’s mentioned the strike/protests in Israel today? Extending the war isn’t supported by ordinary Israelis either. [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israelis-stage-nationwide-protests-demand-end-gaza-war-release-hostages-2025-08-17/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israelis-stage-nationwide-protests-demand-end-gaza-war-release-hostages-2025-08-17/) ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2025, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5077 "2025-08-18T00:21:59Z")
The hospital argument made sense the first time I heard it - that hospitals have the reliable energy and communications systems necessary for command centers. OK, so send in one of the much touted Israeli commando teams to take it out. Instead the hospital was destroyed and a laughable claim was made of a command center. Some kids in uniform were shown with a back pack and a couple of rifles they found. That’s when I realized that the ground effort is just paramilitary demolition. I did find a [combat](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-sends-tanks-into-gazas-deir-al-balah-raising-concerns-among-hostage-2025-07-21/?utm_source=chatgpt.com) exchange in July 2024. A tank was fired on by a man with an RPG. The tank successfully returned fire. Otherwise tanks have just shelled hospitals and civilian residential areas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=246) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=248)