# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 249
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2025, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5098 "2025-08-20T15:25:45Z")
> **[Israel approves settlement project that could divide the West Bank](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-west-bank-e1-settlements-8a713939ee6f6552381246dacc8a1301)** > > Israel has given final approval for a controversial settlement project that would effectively cut the occupied West Bank in two. As if there was any doubt left that this Israeli government had even a shred of interest in peace and human rights for Palestinians… the bigoted and murderous supremacists in charge of Israel have approved another illegal settlement plan for the West Bank, effectively cutting it in two. The settlers and their supporters and enablers in the Israeli government really are no better than Hamas and other extremists. And that’s not hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2025, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5099 "2025-08-21T16:33:41Z")
> **[IDF database suggests 83% of Gaza dead were civilians](https://www.972mag.com/israeli-intelligence-database-83-percent-civilians-militants/)** > > Classified intelligence reveals Israel killed 8,900 militants by May, indicating an almost unparalleled proportion of civilian slaughter. An Israeli magazine is reporting that, according to Israeli intelligence data, as many as 83% of those killed in Gaza are civilians. I recall a discussion about civilian vs militant death rates, earlier in the thread. 83% is much, much worse than even the IDF defenders in the thread were saying was the line between acceptable and unacceptable. Children and other civilians continue to suffer and die in the worst ways humanly possible, all because of the actions of the IDF and Israeli government. All while accomplishing nothing. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2025, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5100 "2025-08-21T17:09:15Z")
And believing the 83% number requires you to believe the IDF is accurate in their classification of who was a combatant, and accurate in total number killed. In reality, the first number is probably much lower and the second number much higher. It’s still astounding that even with fudged numbers, the best they could come up with was 83%. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2025, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5101 "2025-08-21T18:37:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > An Israeli magazine is reporting that, according to Israeli intelligence data, as many as 83% of those killed in Gaza are civilians. Some “interesting” or perhaps “creative” math there. They’re taking the full list of dead and comparing it to the list of Hamas members killed _whose name is known to Israel_. So it doesn’t mean that 83% of those killed in Gaza are civilians; it means that 83% of those killed were not identified by name by the IDF. If an IDF soldier calls in a tank strike on a position where someone was shooting him from, and the shooter is killed by the tank shell, and because of this Israel can’t identify him _by name_, this methodology counts him as a civilian. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2025, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5102 "2025-08-21T19:03:03Z")
> **[Revealed: Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/21/revealed-israeli-militarys-own-data-indicates-civilian-death-rate-of-83-in-gaza-war)** > > Figures from classified IDF database listed 8,900 named fighters as dead or probably dead in May, as overall death toll reached 53,000 The IDF says the numbers are wrong, though provides zero details or evidence: > The Israeli military did not dispute the existence of the database or dispute the data on Hamas and PIJ deaths when approached for comment by Local Call and +972 Magazine. When the Guardian asked for comment on the same data, a spokesperson said they had decided to “rephrase” their response. > A brief statement sent to the Guardian did not directly address questions about the military intelligence database. > It said “figures presented in the article are incorrect”, without specifying which data the Israeli military disputed. It also said the numbers “do not reflect the data available in the IDF’s systems”, without detailing which systems. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2025, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5103 "2025-08-22T11:55:59Z")
Using the IDF definition of combatant, probably 80% of the Israelis killed on 7 Oct were combatants. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2025, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5104 "2025-08-22T16:19:48Z")
> **[I Should Be Ride Or Die Israel](https://dbarkhuff.substack.com/p/i-should-be-ride-or-die-israel)** > > But I can't anymore A US Navy SEAL writes as follows, pretty much exactly my view: > At the Naval Academy, I internalized something even bigger than tactics or raids: the necessity of defending humanity from genocide. On my second day of plebe summer, we were bused into DC to the Holocaust museum. It was intentional. The Holocaust was not abstract as we learned the craft of warfare. It was a warning. It demanded vigilance. It demanded that men like me, trained and armed by the United States, understand that the use of force must serve a moral purpose. Our training wasn’t just about marksmanship or demolitions—it was about judgment, about knowing when violence is justified and when it becomes cruelty. > By those lights, I should be firmly on Israel’s side. I respect their ethos of survival, their recognition that the world often looks the other way when Jews are threatened, their refusal to accept annihilation without a fight. I understand that October 7 was not just an attack, but a massacre meant to instill terror, a reminder of why they believe no one else will ever defend them but themselves. Any military professional who studies history sees the legitimacy of that fear, and the moral right the Israelis have to play rough when Jews are murdered. > But that was then. And now, what Israel is doing in Gaza makes it impossible for me to simply salute and stand with them. The principle of defending humanity from genocide applies to Palestinians as well. Indiscriminate bombing, mass displacement, starvation used as a weapon—these things are not strategy, they are punishment. They are the flattening of an entire people under the logic of collective guilt. They are war crimes, crimes against humanity, and whether they meet the legal definition of genocide under international law is irrelevant. They are wrong, and the government committing them is in the wrong. You can’t study Entebbe, where precision, appropriate violence, and risk turned chaos into triumph, and then justify the wholesale destruction of Gaza, where entire neighborhoods are reduced to rubble in the name of rooting out Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2025, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5105 "2025-08-23T14:02:31Z")
Pretty much every organization not directly allied with Trump/Netanyahu is calling what’s going on in Gaza a famine. The IDF and its defenders insist only they can be trusted. ISTM that if they really wanted to convince people there was no famine, they’d allow outside journalists into Gaza to verify it. That they haven’t done this is extremely telling. There’s a famine in Gaza, perpetrated by the Israeli government and IDF, and they want to pretend this can be hidden. It can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2025, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5106 "2025-08-23T14:24:39Z")
We are likely to see some redefinition of Northern Gaza like buffer or demilitarized zone, with a renamed settler population. The IDF is free to use the more appropriate US term of ‘squatter’. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5107 "2025-08-25T12:38:43Z")
…I think its important that, if you can stomach it, that everyone watch this video that I’m about to post. It is an upsetting video. It shows Palestinians getting killed. You don’t see anything graphic. Not in the first video. But I’ll spoil it anyway so nobody accidentally clicks it, and describe it clearly so that people know what it shows. The second video that I will share shows the aftermath. That one _is_ graphic, and I’d be very careful about clicking that one. The first video shows a _warcrime_. To be precise: _multiple_ warcrimes. Spoiled because it includes footage of people getting killed by an explosion. As mentioned, you don’t see anything graphic. Just a group of people, on a stairwell, trying to rescue other people, then an explosion. [https://x.com/gazanotice/status/1959881104569069708](https://x.com/gazanotice/status/1959881104569069708) Its a warcrime because its an attack on a hospital. As I’ve made the case for over and over again on these boards: attacking a hospital is a warcrime. There are exceptions to this. Hospitals can lose their protections if the hospital is used to “commit acts harmful to the enemy.” But we can see exactly what the people that were killed were doing here. This is one of the clearest videos you will ever see of that. Most of the people we can see are rescuers. They are trying to save the lives of the people that were hit in the first strike. We see another person, probably one of the four journalists killed in this strike, filming them. Because this was a double-tap. Arguably illegal under International Humanitarian Law, a double-tap is where they firstly drop a bomb, and when people arrive to rescue the people targeted in the first bomb, they get hit by a [second](https://www.972mag.com/double-tap-israel-gaza-airstrikes-rescue/). A double tap isn’t about the target of the first strike, but about _killing the first responders_. Among those killed in this strike were, as mentioned, four journalists. It included Mariam abu Dagga, who recently did some work for the AP, who was described by a colleague as " A mother, a kind lady with a beautiful soul and smile." > It included Dr. Mohamed Al-Habibi. > > > Gaza Notifications @gazanotice Fifteen people have been reportedly killed so far. Here is the second video. This shows the aftermath. WARNING: this one _is_ graphic. It shows multiple dead bodies in the stairwell from after what I’m assuming is the _second_ bombing. [https://x.com/HossamShabat/status/1959910380324491600](https://x.com/HossamShabat/status/1959910380324491600) The two big pieces of news out of Gaza in the last few days is firstly, Gaza is now, according to the IPC Famine Review committee, Gaza is now in famine. [https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user\_upload/ipcinfo/docs/IPC\_Famine\_Review\_Committee\_Report\_Gaza\_Aug2025.pdf](https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/IPC_Famine_Review_Committee_Report_Gaza_Aug2025.pdf) > [@](#): > > The FRC finds the analysis team’s classifications plausible > for the period (1 July – 15 August 2025), indicating > Famine (IPC Phase 5) for Gaza Governorate and IPC > Phase 4 (Emergency) for Deir al-Balah and Khan Younis. > The FRC finds the severity of conditions in North Gaza > similar or worse than in Gaza Governorate. However, > due to limited evidence on the population status in this > area the FRC recommends not to classify North Gaza > Governorate. Urgent steps should be taken to allow for > a full humanitarian assessment in this governorate. Phase 5 for Gaza Governorate and Phase 4 for Deir al-Balah and Kahn Younis. And its _probably_ worse in the north, but as I’ve noted multiple times recently in this thread, nobody has been able to get accurate information from the north since about April. There is a lot of intentional disinformation about the IPC designation, including from government accounts. Jeremy Konyndyk, formerly USAID and currently President of advocacy group Refugees International, addresses those here. > > > Israel ישראל @Israel And the second-biggest news out of Gaza is that the IDF have launched a major “offensive” against Gaza City. The reports from the ground are, as you can expect, _horrific_. People are expecting Gaza City to be flattened. Just like Rafah and many places in the north. From the UN: > **[Amid ongoing Israeli attacks, ‘the systematic destruction of Gaza City is...](https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/08/1165690)** > > The Israeli military has escalated attacks across Gaza City, reportedly deciding to press ahead with plans to take full control which will only lead to further “mass killings of civilians” and displacement, UN human rights officials warned on... > [@](#): > > Since 8 August, the office has recorded 54 attacks on residential buildings and entire blocks in Gaza City, killing 87 Palestinians, including at least 25 children and entire families. > > It also recorded attacks on shelters for internally displaced people, including tents and schools, killing at least 14. > > These casualty figures “indicate that **the systematic destruction of Gaza City is already underway** ,” the statement said. > > However, OHCHR stressed that these devastating figures are only a portion of the actual toll due to underreporting in such dire circumstances. Bolding _not_ mine: but from the UN statement. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5108 "2025-08-25T14:12:22Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The hospital argument made sense the first time I heard it - that hospitals have the reliable energy and communications systems necessary for command centers. OK, so send in one of the much touted Israeli commando teams to take it out. Instead the hospital was destroyed and a laughable claim was made of a command center. Some kids in uniform were shown with a back pack and a couple of rifles they found. That’s when I realized that the ground effort is just paramilitary demolition Yes. They showed photos of tunnels that everyone knew were under the hospital, and a handful of guns. It was shockingly little evidence. And if that space was really being used by Hamas, Israel could have cut the power to the tunnels and poured some concrete to close them off, and left the hospital running. They could even have left some soldiers there to maintain control. Instead, they destroyed it. (And had to keep coming back to destroy it again, as Palestinians cobbled together some hospital functionality.) And they destroyed all the other hospitals. And they’ve been assassinating journalists at an unprecedented rate. I’m Jewish. I was raised to support Israel. My synagogue still has an Israeli flag and and a prominently displayed empty chair to represent the hostages. But i can’t support Israel now. It’s much too obvious that they are trying to remove Palestinians from Gaza. > [@Babale](#): > > You’re never going to accept any evidence I provide if it comes from the IDF. Maybe he wouldn’t have, but i would have. I was shocked at the paltry evidence. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > I think it’s pretty patently obvious that the only two sides you could possibly get confirmation from on that sort of thing are Israel and Hamas > > …or Israel could let international media people in Yup. They sure missed that opportunity. I expected the IDF to parade in international journalists to show off the sophisticated command and control center they destroyed, and to justify their attack on a hospital. Instead… Nothing. And you know, if anyplace that has a laptop and a gun is a “command and control center”, you don’t gain anything by destroying those places. Because they will obviously pop up elsewhere. Sure, cut the power and keep some soldiers patrolling places that really need power, like, i dunno, hospitals. Turning hospitals into rubble seems much less effective than stationing a few troops there. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Hundreds of thousands of Israelis are protesting, disruptively, the war in Gaza. Yeah, even Israelis are no longer backing this war. > [@Crane](#): > > Using the IDF definition of combatant, probably 80% of the Israelis killed on 7 Oct were combatants. Right. After all, most of them served in the Israeli military at some point in their lives. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5109 "2025-08-29T02:08:48Z")
> **[Reuters stopped sharing Gaza locations with Israel after IDF strikes killed...](https://www.nbcnews.com/world/gaza/news-group-stopped-sharing-gaza-locations-israel-many-journalists-kill-rcna227687)** > > A Reuters cameraman who regularly operated its live position on the roof of Nasser Hospital was one of five journalists among 22 people killed in Israeli strikes on the facility Monday. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5110 "2025-08-29T03:21:10Z")
What does that do though? I’m pretty sure the IDF will just continue killing them (because all cameras in Gaza are Hamas cameras) and then turn around and blame them for not sharing their location. I guess not sharing the locations means the IDF will have to work a little harder to guide the missiles/bombs/bullets in but we’ve already seen they are clearly willing to go through the effort. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5111 "2025-08-29T03:31:39Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > A double tap isn’t about the target of the first strike, but about _killing the first responders_. I cannot find where I read this but apparently the Israeli government has said that it considers first responders to be Hamas and therefore the enemy. Same with journalists. Have they not just basically confessed to war crimes? I initially had some sympathy for Israel in 2023. That sympathy is long long gone now. As in, never coming back. This is essentially Holocaust II. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5112 "2025-08-29T03:39:28Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > What does that do though? …the way I read that statement: they stopped sharing their locations a long time ago: unrelated to this particular incident. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Have they not just basically confessed to war crimes? They confess to warcrimes _daily_. From today: > [@](#): > > The far-right minister, who has vocally opposed striking a deal with Hamas to end the nearly two-year war, presented his plan to “win in Gaza by the end of the year” at a press conference in Jerusalem. > > … > > If Hamas refuses, Smotrich said Israel should annex a section of the territory each week for four weeks, bringing most of the Gaza Strip under full Israeli control. > > According to Smotrich, Palestinians would first be told to move south in Gaza, followed by Israel imposing a siege on the territory’s north and centre to defeat any remaining Hamas rebels there, and ending with annexation. > **[MSN](https://www.msn.com/en-my/news/other/israeli-minister-calls-to-annex-gaza-if-hamas-doesn-t-surrender/ar-AA1Lr5Bu)** Just casually proposing ethnic cleansing. Except he’s a bit late: because they are literally imposing a siege on the territory in the north right _now_, and are forcing Palestinians to head south. The only difference is he is saying the “annexation” thing out loud. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5113 "2025-08-29T03:54:14Z")
So, are they going to stop at 6 million dead, or go for the record? ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5114 "2025-08-29T12:23:20Z")
Won’t they have to move on to the West Bank for that? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2025, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5115 "2025-08-29T16:09:03Z")
Why are you phrasing that like they’re not _already_ there? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5116 "2025-08-30T14:14:25Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The far-right minister, who has vocally opposed striking a deal with Hamas to end the nearly two-year war, Striking a deal? There is no “deal”. This is a war. Surrender, turn over all hostages, and abdicate all political power. We didn’t make a “deal” in WW-II. It was unconditional surrender. None of the Islamic countries want to take in refugees from Gaza and have called for Hamas to surrender. They don’t want their militant nonsense in their countries. Hamas has to go and the Palestinians need to make that happen. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5117 "2025-08-30T14:55:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Striking a deal? …that is the language chosen by the author of the article. Feel free to substitute whatever other language you like. Like _ceasefire_. Or “pause.” Or “end to hostilities.” These things happen all the time. In fact: there was a ceasefire a few months ago until Israel just decided to end it. > [@Magiver](#): > > Surrender, turn over all hostages, and abdicate all political power. Hamas has agreed to turn over all the hostages and abdicate all political power. They did that _months ago_. Israel has chosen not to negotiate. Instead they are currently in the process of flattening Gaza City, a clear and obvious crime against humanity with zero justification. > [@Magiver](#): > > We didn’t make a “deal” in WW-II. It was unconditional surrender. This isn’t World War 2. Countless wars and conflicts since then have been solved _without_ unconditional surrender. That isn’t a prerequisite. > [@Magiver](#): > > None of the Islamic countries want to take in refugees from Gaza A reminder that the United States of America, one of the biggest funders, supporters and cheerleaders of the ethnic cleansing in Gaza (both the Republicans AND the Democrats) halted medical [visitor visas for children](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwy1prn125do) who have had their limbs blown off by American bombs. So if you want to complain about countries not taking in people from Gaza then perhaps look at what your country is doing first. You actually have some agency here. Write a letter to your congressman. Let the medical visitor visas continue. Not that it matters anyway, because Israel have total control of the borders in Gaza, and are _barely_ letting anyone in or out. > [@Magiver](#): > > Hamas has to go and the Palestinians need to make that happen. Palestinians in Gaza are _starving_. They are trying to avoid getting bombed. They aren’t in a position to make Hamas do _anything_. They are just trying to stay alive. Not that it matters because again: Hamas has _agreed to step down._ They have already agreed to go. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=248) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=250)