# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 250
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5118 "2025-08-30T15:02:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This isn’t World War 2. It is to Israel. The Jewish based country that lost millions to it. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Not that it matters because again: Hamas has _agreed to step down._ They have already agreed to go. I missed the lines of guerilla soldiers surrendering their weapons and tunnel system. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5119 "2025-08-30T15:09:43Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Hamas has agreed to turn over all the hostages and abdicate all political power. They did that _months ago_. Israel has chosen not to negotiate. Hamas refuses to disarm. Since the last time Hamas was “not in power” they used their guns to go and arrest all their opponents before hanging them off a building, Hamas agreeing to “abdicate all political power” is a meaningless statement, because political power in Gaza stems from the barrel of a gun, and they’d _immediately take back political power_. They could give up their _arms_, but of course they won’t, because then how could they seize power again? They obviously don’t intend to actually stop fighting the so-called “occupation” of Tel Aviv and Haifa. Literally the _only reason_ they make offers like that is to convince gullible Westerners that they’re just downtrodden freedom fighters doing their best. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5120 "2025-08-30T15:09:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Hamas has agreed to turn over all the hostages and abdicate all political power. Really? According to [this BBC report](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckgjye15zdlo), Hamas has (unofficially) shown interest in a staged release of about half the hostages over a 60-day truce and to enter peace negotiations. Nothing about willingness to lay down their arms and cease fighting. Hamas is still using the hostages and Gaza civilians as pawns, with no concern for their suffering. > [@](#): > > Palestinians also called for an immediate end to the war at a protest in Gaza City on Monday. > > “Hamas and its demands, and the demands being negotiated, do not represent me. I want to live in peace. I want peace of mind. Our only demand is peace and safety for our children,” one woman told a local freelance journalist working for the BBC. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5121 "2025-08-30T15:17:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It is to Israel. …this _isn’t_ World War 2. > [@Magiver](#): > > I missed the lines of guerilla soldiers surrendering their weapons and tunnel system. Israel operates torture camps. Cites. [https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408\_welcome\_to\_hell](https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell) > **[Israeli prisons and detention camps designed to torture Palestinian detainees...](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-prisons-and-detention-camps-designed-torture-palestinian-detainees)** > > News and Press Release in English on occupied Palestinian territory about Protection and Human Rights; published on 11 Jan 2025 by Euro-Med Monitor [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/08/israels-escalating-use-torture-against-palestinians-custody-preventable](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/08/israels-escalating-use-torture-against-palestinians-custody-preventable) > **[Gazan detainees tell BBC of torture by IDF and Israel Prison Service](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn7vje365rno)** > > Interviews with five men held in the months after the Hamas attacks reveal allegations of violence and abuse, adding to reports of misconduct by military and prison staff. > **[Israeli whistleblowers detail horror of shadowy detention facility for...](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd)** > > At a military base that now doubles as a detention center in Israel’s Negev desert, an Israeli working at the facility snapped two photographs of a scene that he says continues to haunt him. > **[Israel must end mass incommunicado detention and torture of Palestinians from...](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/07/israel-must-end-mass-incommunicado-detention-and-torture-of-palestinians-from-gaza/)** > > Israeli authorities must end their indefinite incommunicado detention of Palestinians from the occupied Gaza Strip, without charge or trial under the Unlawful Combatants law, in flagrant violation of international law, said Amnesty... > **[Gazans reveal horrors of Ofer Camp](https://www.972mag.com/ofer-camp-torture-gaza-detainees/)** > > Detainees in Israel's shadowy new facility face non-stop abuse — from electric shocks and constant handcuffing, to skin diseases and deadly beatings. > **[Israel: Palestinians from Gaza held in secret detention describe torture -...](https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/israel-palestinians-gaza-held-secret-detention-describe-torture-new-testimonies)** > > We are Amnesty International UK. We are ordinary people from across the world standing up for humanity and human rights. The idea that anyone would voluntarily turn themselves in to get detained and tortured for the rest of their lives is _absurd_. They’ve agreed to step down. That should at least be enough for any party to this conflict acting in good faith to allow food and aid to start flowing over the borders. It should be enough to end the siege. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > According to [this BBC report](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckgjye15zdlo), Hamas has (unofficially) shown interest in a staged release of about half the hostages over a 60-day truce and to enter peace negotiations. Nothing about willingness to lay down their arms and cease fighting. Yes: that’s the latest proposal for a _temporary ceasefire_ from regional mediators based on a framework put forward by the Americans. But I’m talking about _an end to the war_. > [@](#): > > “We are ready today, if not yesterday, to step back from governance to hand it over to a body, a government, a committee, that is [ready to run the Gaza Strip](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/deranged-problematic-bipartisan-lawmakers-bash-trumps-gaza-proposal-rcna190733),” Naim said. > **[Hamas ready to cede control of Gaza, official says](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hamas-ready-cede-control-gaza-official-says-rcna194042)** > > “We are ready today, if not yesterday, to step back from governance,” Basem Naim, a senior political official for Hamas, told NBC News. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Hamas is still using the hostages and Gaza civilians as pawns, with no concern for their suffering. I condemn Hamas. They committed atrocities on October the seventh and should be held responsible. Do you condemn the atrocities, the daily warcrimes, the ethnic cleansing of Gaza by Israel and the IDF? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5122 "2025-08-30T15:18:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Hamas refuses to disarm. …that doesn’t give Israel the right to starve the people in Gaza. Let the food and aid start flooding the strip already. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5123 "2025-08-30T15:20:25Z")
Hamas is really a sideshow at this point. They’ve been militarily defeated. Israeli leaders have been more than clear that the war isn’t about the hostages anymore. It’s about keeping Netanyahu and his allies in power. What do the lives of hostages and civilians matter when compared to Netanyahu and allies’ fears of losing power? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5124 "2025-08-30T15:21:18Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The idea that anyone would voluntarily turn themselves in to get detained and tortured for the rest of their lives is _absurd_. They’ve agreed to step down. That should at least be enough for any party to this conflict acting in good faith to allow food and aid to start flowing over the borders. It should be enough to end the siege. Who said anything about all of them going into Israeli custody? Why the fuck should we house and feed murderers, terrorists, and rapists who took up arms against the country? If Israel had a death penalty, that would be one thing, but who the fuck wants thousands of Hamasniks living out their life in the luxury of Israeli prison? Fuck that. No one talked about _imprisoning_ them. But they do have to _disarm and disband Hamas_. That should at least be enough for any party observing this conflict in good faith who is _actually opposed_ to Hamas’ stated goals or their methods. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5125 "2025-08-30T15:21:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Hamas is really a sideshow at this point. They’ve been militarily defeated. Bullshit. They remain in power and control Gaza. Not one thing has changed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5126 "2025-08-30T15:22:13Z")
None of this justifies the mass starvation and mass murder of civilians overseen by Israel and the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5127 "2025-08-30T15:23:21Z")
What a fucking joke. Israel is in control of Gaza. If Hamas was in control, they’d at least let journalists in to document the carnage. Israel is in control and they’re not letting anyone or anything in beyond an insufficient trickle of food. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5128 "2025-08-30T15:24:29Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Hamas refuses to disarm. > > …that doesn’t give Israel the right to starve the people in Gaza. Let the food and aid start flooding the strip already. That’s a weird non-sequitor but I guess that’s the purpose of only quoting one line from my post. I agree, aid should continue to flow in through any means that aren’t completely compromised by Hamas, like the UNRWA was ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5129 "2025-08-30T15:26:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Hamas is really a sideshow at this point. I don’t think they got the memo, maybe you could tell them? Or at least, all of the Palestinians they control that they can stop listening to Hamas and start holding new elections? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5130 "2025-08-30T15:28:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If Hamas was in control, they’d at least let journalists in to document the carnage. Ahhh, yes, Hamas, famously champions of the Free Press. Newsflash: they _do_ let “journalists” in - specifically, all the Hamas fighters moonlighting as Al Jazeera “journalists”. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5131 "2025-08-30T15:30:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It is to Israel. The Jewish based country that lost millions to it. You do have a point. By your post, Israel is justifying the Nazi cause. Gaza is Lebensraum for Jews. Ok, but drop all the propaganda and fess up to what they are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5132 "2025-08-30T15:30:58Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Who said anything about all of them going into Israeli custody? …is this a concession that, yes, Israel is operating torture camps? > [@Babale](#): > > Why the fuck should we house and feed murderers, terrorists, and rapists who took up arms against the country? Because that’s what civilised countries that have agreed to abide by International Humanitarian Law do. > [@Babale](#): > > That should at least be enough for any party observing this conflict in good faith who is _actually opposed_ to Hamas’ stated goals or their methods. I want the ethnic cleansing in Gaza to stop, I want the deliberate starvation of the Palestinians in Gaza to stop. If Israel wants to track down the remaining people responsible for October 7th I’m not going to oppose that. But the collective punishment of ALL Palestinians in Gaza has to end. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5133 "2025-08-30T15:32:26Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …that doesn’t give Israel the right to starve the people in Gaza. It gives them the right to wage war. Food distribution is a function of the ability to distribute it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5134 "2025-08-30T15:33:37Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because that’s what civilised countries that have agreed to abide by International Humanitarian Law do. Then those civilized countries can build and maintain the prisons. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5135 "2025-08-30T15:33:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > t gives them the right to wage war. …but it doesn’t give Israel the right to starve the people in Gaza. > [@Magiver](#): > > Food distribution is a function of the ability to distribute it. There isn’t a problem with distribution. Israel just has to let the international humanitarian agencies do their job. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5136 "2025-08-30T15:34:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > but it doesn’t give Israel the right to starve the people in Gaza. The blame for that can be placed on Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5137 "2025-08-30T15:37:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Then those civilized countries can build and maintain the prisons. …are you arguing that Israel _isn’t_ civilised? Because I think they are. And are perfectly _capable_ of not breaching International Humanitarian Law. > [@Magiver](#): > > The blame for that can be placed on Hamas. I’ll put the blame on the people that are deliberately blocking food and aid from getting into Gaza: which is the government of Israel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=249) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=251)