# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 251
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5138 "2025-08-30T15:38:02Z")
Israel isn’t even trying to distribute it. They’re deliberately restricting enough food from going in. Israel has total control of the food supply into Gaza, and Israel is ensuring insufficient food goes in. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5139 "2025-08-30T15:38:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …is this a concession that, yes, Israel is operating torture camps? Obviously not, but I’m not in the mood to run in circles for the next two hours. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because that’s what civilised countries that have agreed to abide by International Humanitarian Law do. Really? The US imprisoned all the German soldiers after world war ii for the rest of their lives? What are you _talking_ about? You responded to someone saying “Hamas should disarm” with “What, you expect them to go into ISRAELI CUSTODY???”. And I’m trying to explain to you that no, it doesn’t mean that; why on Earth would you think it does? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I want the ethnic cleansing in Gaza to stop, Well, I have great news for you, then! > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If Israel wants to track down the remaining people responsible for October 7th I’m not going to oppose that. But the collective punishment of ALL Palestinians in Gaza has to end. What I want is the organization that perpetrated October 7 to cease existing as a politically viable force. Sorry, but that’s not an unreasonable ask. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5140 "2025-08-30T15:38:56Z")
Israel should stop its assault on Gaza City. Hamas should stop fighting and lay down its arms, without preconditions and negotiations. Full stop. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5141 "2025-08-30T15:39:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It gives them the right to wage war. Israel is not waging war. Hamas has lost all ability to wage war. Hamas is beaten. Israel has taken the territory and is murdering the native population and destroying all infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5142 "2025-08-30T15:39:46Z")
Israel should also let enough food in. Israel should stop mass shooting and bombing starving civilians and Gazan aid workers. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5143 "2025-08-30T15:41:59Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Israel is not waging war. Hamas has lost all ability to wage war. Hamas is beaten. Israel has taken the territory and is murdering the native population and destroying all infrastructure. Bullshit. They exist as a political entity and war machine. They will continue to do so until defeated. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5144 "2025-08-30T15:43:04Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There isn’t a problem with distribution. Israel just has to let the international humanitarian agencies do their job. The UNRWA’s job is not to smuggle weapons in to arm Hamas, it’s not to brainwash children in schools about “Occupied Tel Aviv”, and it’s not to hide hostages under UN infrastructure. The problem with the UNRWA is that their attitude, at the most charitable possible interpretation, was “Well Hamas is the ruling body of Gaza, so we have to coordinate with them, and if we make a stink Hamas won’t let us operate”. The _less_ charitable interpretation, of course, is that they aided Hamas because they agreed with them. But even in the charitable case - their attitude _should_ have been, “if we want to keep operating here, we need to stay AS FAR AS FUCKING POSSIBLE away from Hamas”. That’s very much _not_ what they did, and so they’ve lost Israel’s cooperation, and _very_ rightly so. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5145 "2025-08-30T15:45:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Bullshit. They exist as a political entity and war machine. Do they have an air force, artillery, massed troop formations, uniformed trained strike teams? What material war machine exists that might justify Israels’ ongoing murder and destruction? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5146 "2025-08-30T15:46:59Z")
It’s a terrible shame that there are no organizations anywhere in the world aside from UNRWA with experience distributing aid and food in war zones. Poor, poor Israel, forced to incompetently distribute insufficient food to starving people, and end up killing hundreds or thousands of starving civilians while doing so, because there’s no organization anywhere in the world that can help. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5147 "2025-08-30T15:48:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s a weird non-sequitor but I guess that’s the purpose of only quoting one line from my post. …it wasn’t a non-sequitor. It’s the _entire point_. It doesn’t matter if Hamas disarms or not. There is NO justification for the ongoing siege of Gaza. > [@Babale](#): > > I agree, aid should continue to flow in through any means that aren’t completely compromised by Hamas Like for example, the World Food Programme?" > [@Cindy McCain](#): > > “Gaza is at a breaking point. Desperation is soaring – and I saw it firsthand.” McCain said. “We must urgently be able to revive our vast and trusted network of 200 food distribution points across the Strip, community kitchens and bakeries. It is urgent that the right conditions are in place so we can reach the most vulnerable and save lives.” > **[WFP chief visits Palestine and Israel, calls for immediate surge of aid into...](https://www.wfp.org/news/wfp-chief-visits-palestine-and-israel-calls-immediate-surge-aid-gaza-and-safe-access-reach)** > > JERUSALEM – Safe, unfettered humanitarian access to reach the most vulnerable families is the top priority right now, World Food Programme Executive Director Cindy McCain said after visiting the Gaza Strip where she witnessed firsthand immense... There is _no good reason_ why Israel continues to stop the WFP from doing their job in Gaza. > [@Babale](#): > > like the UNRWA was UNRWA wasn’t. Every single person that worked for UNRWA in Gaza was vetted by Israel. Every single one. If they were “compromised” then they failed to do their job. But they _weren’t_ compromised. Israel has been asked over and over again to provide that evidence and, as you’ve demonstrated when I’ve asked you to present that evidence: failed to do so. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Israel should stop its assault on Gaza City. Do you condemn the atrocities, the daily warcrimes, the ethnic cleansing of Gaza by Israel and the IDF? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5148 "2025-08-30T15:50:01Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Well Hamas is the ruling body of Gaza No, the civil service structure of Gaza is managed by Egypt and Israel. Hamas is about as functional as the Republic of Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5149 "2025-08-30T15:56:09Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > No, the civil service structure of Gaza is managed by Egypt and Israel. This is incorrect. Like, _indisputably_ so. Unlike other claims made in this thread, there isn’t even a _debate_ about it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5150 "2025-08-30T15:57:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Obviously not …I cited multiple reports and humanitarian agencies that describe torture in Israeli prisons and detention centres. Do you think they are wrong? > [@Babale](#): > > The US imprisoned all the German soldiers after world war ii for the rest of their lives? Nope. Never claimed that. > [@Babale](#): > > What are you _talking_ about? I’m talking about what will happen to “guerillas that lay down their arms”, the scenario described by Magiver. Based on how prisoners are being treated _now_, many, if not most of them probably innocent, that people who are actually guilty if not executed, are never going to ever going to get out of prison ever again. And if they are going to go to prison, they should be treated _humanely_. But I think the evidence is clear that this wouldn’t happen: so no, they aren’t going to willingly give up their arms. > [@Babale](#): > > And I’m trying to explain to you that no, it doesn’t mean that So you are just going to let them go? > [@Babale](#): > > Well, I have great news for you, then! I don’t think you do. > [@Babale](#): > > What I want is the organization that perpetrated October 7 to cease existing as a politically viable force. Its quite telling that voluntarily stepping down from power and letting someone else take over doesn’t qualify as “ceasing existing as a politically viable force.” ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5151 "2025-08-30T16:10:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This is incorrect. Like, _indisputably_ so. Unlike other claims made in this thread, there isn’t even a _debate_ about it. You are correct and I am wrong. I confused what I had read about energy and relief funds with civil service. Please accept my apology. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5152 "2025-08-30T16:14:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The UNRWA’s job is not to smuggle weapons in to arm Hamas, it’s not to brainwash children in schools about “Occupied Tel Aviv”, and it’s not to hide hostages under UN infrastructure. The problem with the UNRWA is that their attitude, at the most charitable possible interpretation, was “Well Hamas is the ruling body of Gaza, so we have to coordinate with them, and if we make a stink Hamas won’t let us operate”. The _less_ charitable interpretation, of course, is that they aided Hamas because they agreed with them. …I talked about food and aid distribution, and you talk about UNRWA and “brainwashing children in schools.” These _are not the same things_. UNRWA isn’t the _only_ agency capable of distribution in Gaza. > [@Babale](#): > > we need to stay AS FAR AS FUCKING POSSIBLE away from Hamas” Hamas were and are _the governing body_ in Gaza. What you are asking of them was literally impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5153 "2025-08-30T16:24:25Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Do they have an air force, artillery, massed troop formations, uniformed trained strike teams? What material war machine exists that might justify Israels’ ongoing murder and destruction? They have the same thing they had when they started. Guerillas using civilian infrastructure and the weapons used by guerillas. The fact that they are a cowardly un-uniformed army that uses civilian infrastructure to hide behind is the reason Gaza is the war zone. Trying to pretend they are not an army waging war is the height if revisionism. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5154 "2025-08-30T16:26:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Hamas were and are _the governing body_ in Gaza. What you are asking of them was literally impossible. Nazi Germany was defeated in it’s entirety politically. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5155 "2025-08-30T16:38:01Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m talking about what will happen to “guerillas that lay down their arms”, the scenario described by Magiver. Based on how prisoners are being treated _now_, many, if not most of them probably innocent, that people who are actually guilty if not executed, are never going to ever going to get out of prison ever again. > > And if they are going to go to prison, they should be treated _humanely_. But I think the evidence is clear that this wouldn’t happen: so no, they aren’t going to willingly give up their arms. Gaza has like 20,000 Hamas fighters (and that’s just militants, not other Hamas members; and it doesn’t count other terrorist groups and Militias), who on Earth is talking about putting them all in prison? If Hamas disbands, the war is done. Some specific members might get punished, especially high ranking ones, but the vast majority are going to go on with their lives. Is that just? Nope. But that’s reality. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So you are just going to let them go? Let who go? If Hamas disbands, whose custody will they be in to be let go? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Its quite telling that voluntarily stepping down from power and letting someone else take over doesn’t qualify as “ceasing existing as a politically viable force.” When you are a group that previously seized power with the weapons you’re refusing to give up? Yes, it’s quite telling - bit of a “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me” situation. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5156 "2025-08-30T16:40:23Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > we need to stay AS FAR AS FUCKING POSSIBLE away from Hamas” > > Hamas were and are _the governing body_ in Gaza. What you are asking of them was literally impossible. Not smuggling in weapons on behalf of Hamas or teaching children that _all of Israel is occupied Palestinian soil which will one day be cleansed through the righteous wrath of our martyrs_ or stuffing hostages for safekeeping under your HQ is _impossible_? Well, it’s a good thing the UNRWA doesn’t have access to Gaza anymore, then, if it’s i_mpossible_ for them not to do those things. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5157 "2025-08-30T16:43:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Nazi Germany was defeated in it’s entirety politically. …this isn’t Nazi Germany. UNRWA was established in 1949. They’ve worked with every governing body in Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=250) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=252)