# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 252
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5158 "2025-08-30T17:03:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Gaza has like 20,000 Hamas fighters (and that’s just militants, not other Hamas members; and it doesn’t count other terrorist groups and Militias), who on Earth is talking about putting them all in prison? …so are you just going to let them go? What about people that are currently being detained like Hussam Abu Safia? For starters: _why_ is he being detained? Why was he held in solitary confinement? Why was he beaten with an electric stick? Why hasn’t the Red Cross been given access to him, and why is his access to a lawyer so limited? When are they going to release him? What exactly did he do wrong? And if they are doing this to him, and there are _thousands_ of Palestinians being held in custody right now, _all_ of them being mistreated, some in much _worse_ ways, many, if not most quite possible being innocent, then how are they going to treat those actual “Hamas fighters”? > [@Babale](#): > > If Hamas disbands, the war is done. I don’t think the actions of the Israeli government, both in deed or by words, show this to be correct at all. They’ve literally said they will step down from power, but this isn’t _enough_. > [@Babale](#): > > but the vast majority are going to go on with their lives. So the thousands of Palestinians in custody right now are just going to be let go? Can we have that in writing? > [@Babale](#): > > If Hamas disbands, whose custody will they be in to be let go? So Israel are just going to let them go free? They won’t kill them with pager bombs? Targeted strikes that kill them and their families? Thats it? They are free? > [@Babale](#): > > Yes, it’s quite telling - bit of a “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me” situation. It’s redefining what “ceasing to exist as a politically viable force” means. It means that the government of Israel and the IDF are so incompetent that the near total destruction of Gaza _hasn’t_ resulted in Hamas ceasing to exist as a “politically viable force”. What a totally inept strategic failure. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5159 "2025-08-30T17:07:11Z")
A single Hamas fighter, somewhere, would be enough for Netanyahu (and his useful idiots online who blindly support whatever comes out of the Israeli government) to claim that the fight must continue. The monsters in charge of Israel and the IDF are no more honest or trustworthy than Trump or even Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5160 "2025-08-30T17:09:50Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If Hamas disbands, the war is done. Some specific members might get punished, especially high ranking ones, but the vast majority are going to go on with their lives. Is that just? Nope. But that’s reality. I’m not seeing this reality. This sounds like a very one-sided version of it in fact. One nuance that is missing is something that often happens in so many conflicts; The notion of “the enemy” expands during a war, until it encompasses a vast, vast number of people. When a bystander or citizen or aid worker or ambulance driver or doctor or journalist or child is killed, it’s hard for a country to admit that they just killed an innocent. Much, much easier to fall back on “well, they were the enemy”. And stories are confabulated to ensure that the public sees them as the enemy. This is IMO, human nature. We don’t want to see ourselves as “the baddies” so we must ensure that those we have killed were terrible, terrible people. This, I believe is what we’re seeing now. So getting rid of Hamas is getting frighteningly close to getting rid of the entire population of Gaza. One way or another. History repeats itself frequently, and sometimes the sides are reversed. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5161 "2025-08-30T17:15:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Trying to pretend they are not an army waging war is the height if revisionism. They are clearly a criminal element. But the Israelis’ are responding like they are an army, which they are not. Unless perhaps you can describe the weaponry in parity with Israel in their line of battle. If the US responded to the mafia like Israel in Gaza we would demolish Forest Hill Ill. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5162 "2025-08-30T17:15:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …this isn’t Nazi Germany. UNRWA was established in 1949. They’ve worked with every governing body in Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. The UNRWA is going to ensure Hamas is disbanded? Because my response was to your idea that it’s impossible to remove them as the political power in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5163 "2025-08-30T17:20:38Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Not smuggling in weapons on behalf of Hamas …I’ve looked this up and I’m seeing _claims_ from Israel about “smuggling arms in ambulances” from 2003. Is that what you were talking about? > [@Babale](#): > > or teaching children that _all of Israel is occupied Palestinian soil which will one day be cleansed through the righteous wrath of our martyrs_ This is such a super-specific sentence, you are _obviously_ referring to something in particular. Not that it matters, because it doesn’t justify what Israel is doing to Gaza, and if you want to complain about “what is being taught in schools”, then _wait till you see what is being taught to Israeli children_. From 2011: > **[Academic claims Israeli school textbooks contain bias](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/07/israeli-school-racism-claim)** > > Nurit Peled-Elhanan of Hebrew University says textbooks depict Palestinians as 'terrorists, refugees and primitive farmers' > [@](#): > > They are called Arabs. “The Arab with a camel, in an Ali Baba dress. They describe them as vile and deviant and criminal, people who don’t pay taxes, people who live off the state, people who don’t want to develop,” she says. “The only representation is as refugees, primitive farmers and terrorists. You never see a Palestinian child or doctor or teacher or engineer or modern farmer.” > … > She describes what she found as racism– but, more than that, a racism that prepares young Israelis for their compulsory military service. > > “People don’t really know what their children are reading in textbooks,” she said. > [@](#): > > or stuffing hostages for safekeeping under your HQ is _impossible_? As UNRWA said in response to this accusation, they didn’t have access to their HQ at the time this was alleged to have happened. They have asked Israeli authorities for more information so they can investigate: as you’ve been told over and over again, Israel _has refused_. > [@Magiver](#): > > The UNRWA is going to ensure Hamas is disbanded? Of course not. This isn’t their mandate. > [@Magiver](#): > > Because my response was to your idea that it’s impossible to remove them as the political power in Gaza. I haven’t argued it’s impossible to remove Hamas from political power in Gaza. I’ve argued that Hamas has agreed to give up political power in Gaza. This has _nothing_ to do with UNRWA. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5164 "2025-08-30T17:21:07Z")
The simplest and most obvious evidence that Israel is overseeing ongoing atrocities in Gaza, including mass starvation, is their continuing refusal to allow journalists into Gaza. If there truly were nothing terrible to see with regards to IDF and Israeli actions in Gaza, they’d be clamoring for thousands of international journalists to come into Gaza, and take great pains to ensure their safety. That they’re doing the opposite confirms as much as anything that they’re overseeing absolutely terrible things. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5165 "2025-08-30T17:22:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Nazi Germany was defeated in it’s entirety politically. Well, no. We burned their cities and killed their soldiers until a few guys called up and said they wanted to surrender. We had to figure out which one could sign. There were no political acts. And there are still lots of Nazis around. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5166 "2025-08-30T17:35:32Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Well, no. We burned their cities and killed their soldiers until a few guys called up and said they wanted to surrender. We had to figure out which one could sign. There were no political acts. And there are still lots of Nazis around. Germany surrendered because they were utterly defeated. And no, there are not still a lot of Nazis around in their political structure. The German constitution makes it illegal to disseminate Nazi propaganda and the party is banned. You will note that I specifically said Nazi Germany was defeated in it’s entirety POLITICALLY. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5167 "2025-08-30T17:49:56Z")
And to add to that, Hitler never surrendered. he killed himself. Just prior to that the Nazi regime was running around executing civilians and military people in the streets. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5168 "2025-08-30T19:09:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Germany surrendered because they were utterly defeated Germany was defeated because some of the upper management was gone, but the military, civil service, state governments and corporate economy were intact. When the Russians were battling their way into Berlin people were still standing in line at government food distribution points. No corporation failed as a result of the war. The Weimar Constitution was replaced with a modified version of itself. From what I see on the news some Nazis are back. All of the solutions in Gaza are political. The ‘war’ is theater for propaganda purposes. There are no military targets. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5169 "2025-08-30T19:22:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Not smuggling in weapons on behalf of Hamas I can well believe that there was a case of Hamas using an ambulance to smuggle in weapons. I can also well believe that after blowing up an ambulance, Israeli officials went “holy shit we just blew up an ambulance! Quick, let’s get in front of this story by talking about how they were probably smuggling weapons.” And with reference to the first hypothesis, an instance of an ambulance being used to smuggle weapons does NOT therefore logically follow that ALL ambulances are being used in this way, leading to open season on first responders. This would in fact be a war crime. Likewise, an example of a journalist being a Hamas sympathizer does not mean ALL journalists are now Hamas, and can be killed. It’s simply does not follow. It smells like an excuse to execute all journalists and all first responders. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5170 "2025-08-30T20:08:52Z")
The claims about UNRWA are essentially articles of faith – those who trust Israeli leaders and the IDF will believe it, others will probably not. And it’s mostly irrelevant anyway – Israel is in control of Gaza, and Israel is choosing to disallow enough food to feed all Gazans. If they didn’t have the capability, they could ask the many international orgs with lots of experience with this, but they very conspicuously are not asking for help, even while Gazans starve. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5171 "2025-08-30T20:15:24Z")
This is why I have lost all sympathy with Israel now. I had plenty of sympathy for Israel in 2023 going into 2024. I even scoffed at the students who were setting up tent encampments to support Palestinians. My support and sympathy for Israel’s politicians have now vanished completely and utterly. I feel like those students I ignored were right all along. It is becoming more and more apparent that the Israeli politicians are moving towards complete genocide, and I was a fool for not seeing it earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2025, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5172 "2025-08-31T00:59:38Z")
…the claims about UNRWA are important: not just because of their role in aid distribution in Gaza. But because of their _mandate_. > [@UNRWA](#): > > UNRWA has a humanitarian and development mandate to provide assistance and protection to Palestine refugees **pending a just and lasting solution to their plight.** UNRWA derives its mandate from the UN General Assembly, the Agency’s parent organ, and it is only the General Assembly that can define the UNRWA mandate. The Agency’s mandate is not set out in a single source or document. Rather, the Agency’s mandate is derived primarily from UN General Assembly resolutions. > … > UNRWA will continue to fulfil its mandate of providing services to Palestine refugees **until a just and durable solution to their plight is found.** It is the responsibility of the international community to assist in finding that solution. [https://www.unrwa.org/what-mandate-unrwa-0](https://www.unrwa.org/what-mandate-unrwa-0) Bolding mine. Israel have been targeting UNRWA for years, in part because they see the agency as an _impediment_ to dealing with the Palestinian people. Get rid of the agency, get rid of the register, get rid of the mandate, and the refugee problem goes away. Which is _why_ we’ve witnessed this deliberate disinformation campaign. Why countries defunded them (most have resumed). Why UNRWA employees have been targeted: 360 killed so far. There is no other organisation that can step up and replace this role. And while other agencies are able to step up to provide humanitarian aid in Gaza (although UNRWA have the most experience, people on the ground, and established networks) it’s their role globally in fulfilling its mandate until a _just and durable solution to their plight is found_ that most international observers consider to be the real target. This shouldn’t be a matter of “faith.” Israel has made numerous claims about the agency. But they’ve _failed_ to support those claims with evidence. So we simply shouldn’t believe them. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2025, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5173 "2025-08-31T04:28:38Z")
…so today, just casually, Israel assassinated the Prime Minister of Yemen and much, if not all of his cabinet. And in Gaza…this: > [@](#): > > Israel is set to halt airdrops over Gaza City and reduce the entry of relief trucks ahead of a major offensive, a source told CNN, as the Red Cross warned that Israeli plans for mass evacuation were “impossible.” > **[Israel to halt airdrops ahead of Gaza City offensive as hostage families lash...](https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/30/middleeast/airdrops-israel-halt-evacuation-gaza-city-intl)** > > Israel is set to halt airdrops over Gaza City and reduce the entry of relief trucks ahead of a major offensive, a source told CNN, as the Red Cross warned that Israeli plans for mass evacuation were “impossible.” During a famine, Israel decides to let _even less food_ into Gaza. And have ordered mass evacuations that everyone knows is impossible. > [@](#): > > CNN footage from the courtyard of a hospital showed a row of dead children shrouded in floral blankets. Family members mourn over their small, lifeless bodies, including a toddler wearing a grey onesie with a dinosaur print. > … > Video from the scene soon after the attack showed numerous children wandering dazed, covered in blood and dust. One person lies in the street, his head cracked open in a pool of blood, while a boy is carried away on an improvised stretcher. Just absolutely terrible stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2025, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5174 "2025-09-01T05:27:05Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Germany was defeated because some of the upper management was gone, but the military, civil service, state governments and corporate economy were intact It was a pile of rubble in every sense of the word. A single factory in the US alone was making a B-24 every hour. There were more factories and bombers being built in the US in addition to that and there were more countries involved building war machinery. Germany had to recall their submarine fleet because of advances in intel and airborne radar. Germany was incapable of continuing the fight. > [@Crane](#): > > When the Russians were battling their way into Berlin people were still standing in line at government food distribution points. No corporation failed as a result of the war. There were food lines distributing what was left. There was no incoming food and the Allied forces weren’t trying to feed them. Any corporation that survived the war was because Germany was supported by Allied countries. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2025, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5175 "2025-09-01T06:19:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Hamas agreeing to “abdicate all political power” is a meaningless statement, because political power in Gaza stems from the barrel of a gun, and they’d _immediately take back political power_. > [@Babale](#): > > But they do have to _disarm and disband Hamas_. That should at least be enough for any party observing this conflict in good faith who is _actually opposed_ to Hamas’ stated goals or their methods. I don’t really see how the second option is less futile than the former. “Disbanding”, much like “ceding political power,” is the sort of thing you can say you’re doing, but then not really do it. And I’m not sure how much “disarming” really means for Hamas. It’s not like they’ve got an air force, or a tank division, where there’s a lot of big, expensive, hard-to-replace military assets. It’s mostly small arms and homemade rockets, right? Even if you could be sure they surrendered every single crate of AK-47s, how hard would it be for an outside agent like Iran to just buy them a bunch more crates? Seems like both options still end up with Gaza in Hamas’ hands, but at least with the first one, you can get the surviving hostages back. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2025, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5176 "2025-09-01T14:56:28Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The arrogance of believing that 36 deaths somehow justify the extreme suffering of thousands of innocents is unfathomable. So maybe Israel should have stopped at killing 36 people because it satisfied some kind of quid pro quo? This is war. This what Hamas wanted and this is what the people who voted them into power chose. It was an attempt to draw Islamic governments into the conflict to fight Israel and it failed. there is no support for Hamas and nobody wants the refugees it has created. It could end right now if Hamas surrenders all power and a legitimate government is established that is not at war with Israel. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2025, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5177 "2025-09-01T15:06:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It could end right now if Hamas surrenders all power and a legitimate government is established that is not at war with Israel. This is total bullshit - it’s not only false propaganda, it’s impossible. Gazans are literally starving to death. Starving people have no power to establish a new government, especially while they suffer daily mass murder and other atrocities at the hands of the IDF. Nothing at all good can happen until Gazans are no longer starving, and Israel and only Israel has the power to end that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=251) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=253)