# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 254
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2025, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5198 "2025-09-04T21:05:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Eighty-six percent of those who voted among the 500-member International Association of Genocide Scholars backed the resolution declaring Israel’s “policies and actions in Gaza” had met the legal definition set out in Article II of the 1948 UN convention on genocide. How did “Adolf Hitler”, the “Genocide Expert” from “Gaza City, Palestinian Territories” vote, I wonder? [![](https://israelinstitute.nz/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/1756918825844.jpg) ](https://israelinstitute.nz/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/1756918825844.jpg) > **[When "Adolf Hitler" Can Be a Genocide Scholar: The Farce of the IAGS](https://israelinstitute.nz/2025/09/when-adolf-hitler-can-be-a-genocide-scholar-the-farce-of-the-iags/)** > > In the world of academia, titles carry weight. When an organisation calls itself the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS), one expects seriousness, rigour, and integrity. Yet recent revelations have cast a darkly comic shadow over... How did Avi Bitterman, the random asshole on Twitter, vote? Yep, he’s an official IAGS approved genocide expert too: [![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gz52fy-XYAAMKtk?format=jpg&name=large) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gz52fy-XYAAMKtk?format=jpg&name=large) That’s right - the only qualification for being an IAGS member is having shelled out $30 and filling out the form declaring yourself a “genocide expert”. How on Earth did so many “reputable” news organizations not bother to check this before publishing headlines like the one shared by Andy? Very very strange. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2025, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5199 "2025-09-04T23:26:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > How on Earth did so many “reputable” news organizations not bother to check this before publishing headlines like the one shared by Andy? Very very strange. …how much research did you do into the New Zealaind Israeli Institute before you decided to post this? Or the author or the article, Greg Bouwer? Because I’m familiar with both. If you want to join the institute you can, here. You don’t even need to donate. > **[Join IINZ](https://israelinstitute.nz/join-iinz/)** > > Join IINZ And Bouwer is the type of person who mistakes editorial photos for headlines, from this media council complaint: > [@](#): > > 1. The subject of the complaint is the photo on the cover page of the Otago Daily Times World Focus section. The cover points to an article on an inside page of the section. > > 2. In the photo, a large banner held by protesters reads “Billions to Israel to bomb children" in a similar font and colour to that used in the headline. > > 3. The headline over the photo is **US plans $US8b arms sale**. > [@](#): > > 1. Mr Bouwer complained that the Otago Daily Times’s use of the image perpetuates a “blood libel” against Jews. > > 2. The newspaper could have chosen any number of images to illustrate the story, Mr Bouwer says. The choice of that photo suggests a position by the newspaper on the conflict in Gaza, Mr Bouwer says. > [@](#): > > 1. The Otago Daily Times said Mr Bouwer’s initial complaint was based on a misapprehension that the banner held by protesters in the cover photo was a headline. > > 2. The Otago Daily Times acknowledged that other readers had also mistaken the protesters’ banner as a headline. The newspaper published a letter to the editor from another reader the day following Mr Bouwer’s complaint. A note from the editor below explained that **the words in the banner were those of the protesters, not the newspaper.** > **[Gregory Bouwer against the Otago Daily Times](https://www.mediacouncil.org.nz/rulings/gregory-bouwer-against-the-otago-daily-times/)** > > If you have a complaint about the editorial content of a newspaper, magazine or periodical in circulation in New Zealand (including their websites) you may complain to the Media Council. One of the directors of the Institute openly posts in support of transphobes, as do other signifcant contributors, notably Juliet Moses. They aren’t an organisation that stands firm for human rights. And something that Bouwer omitted from his article was this: > [@](#): > > Pro-Israel activists later discovered that anyone can join the group by paying as little as $30, though. The group’s [website](https://genocidescholars.org/join/) says it is open to individuals including activists and artists, and scholars in unrelated fields, such as film and literature. > > A number of pro-Israel activists said they had joined the group, while others set up prank accounts. > > One activist signed up as[“Adolf Hitler”](https://genocidescholars.org/author/adolf-hitler/) and joined the association’s women’s caucus and indigenous caucus. Others signed up as the [Star Wars character Emperor Palpatine,](https://genocidescholars.org/author/sheevpalpatine/)the [Cookie Monster](https://x.com/DanLinnaeus/status/1963151824698978396), or set up accounts [for their pet dogs](https://genocidescholars.org/author/star-adams/). > **[Pro-Israel activists join genocide scholars group, highlighting open entry...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/pro-israel-activists-join-genocide-scholars-group-highlighting-open-entry-for-non-experts/)** > > After International Association of Genocide Scholars made world headlines accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza, critics using names of 'Adolf Hitler' and Star Wars characters join 'world's leading experts' “Adolf Hitler” wasn’t a member _before_ the scholars backed the resolution. It was a deliberate stunt designed to bring into question the legitimacy of the organisation and they joined AFTER the scholars backed the resolution. Bouwer chose to not include this information in the article you cited. But since we are talking about the G word, lets talk about who has argued that yes, by the legal definition of the word, what is happening in Gaza is g… Lets start with the definiton. G… is defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of G… , ratified in 1948 and came into force in 1951. > [@](#): > > Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: > (a) Killing members of the group; > (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; > (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; > (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; > (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Things to note about the convention: it doesn’t require a set body count. It doesn’t require “killing everyone.” The Srebrenica massacre was upheld by the International Court of Justice as g… , even though the number of people who were killed totaled an estimated 8000 men and boys. From Amnesty International. > [@](#): > > “Amnesty International’s report demonstrates that Israel has carried out acts prohibited under the Genocide Convention, with the specific intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza. These acts include killings, causing serious bodily or mental harm and deliberately inflicting on Palestinians in Gaza conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction. Month after month, Israel has treated Palestinians in Gaza as a subhuman group unworthy of human rights and dignity, demonstrating its intent to physically destroy them,” said Agnès Callamard, Secretary General of Amnesty International. > **[Amnesty International concludes Israel is committing genocide against...](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/)** > > Amnesty International’s research has found sufficient basis to conclude that Israel has committed and is continuing to commit genocide against Palestinians in the occupied Gaza Strip. The report: > **[Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territory: ‘You Feel Like You Are Subhuman’:...](https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/8668/2024/en/)** > > This report documents Israel’s actions during its offensive on the occupied Gaza Strip from 7 October 2023. It examines the killing of civilians, damage to and destruction of civilian infrastructure, forcible displacement, the obstruction or denial... Human Rights Watch focuses on one aspect of this: water. > [@](#): > > Yet, between October 2023 and September 2024, Israeli authorities’ actions have deprived the majority of the more than 2 million Palestinians living in Gaza of access to even that bare minimum amount of water, which has contributed to death and widespread disease.[[3]](https://www.hrw.org/report/2024/12/19/extermination-and-acts-genocide/israel-deliberately-depriving-palestinians-gaza#_ftn3) For many in Gaza, much or all of the water they have had access to is not suitable for drinking. > **[Extermination and Acts of Genocide](https://www.hrw.org/report/2024/12/19/extermination-and-acts-genocide/israel-deliberately-depriving-palestinians-gaza)** > > In the 179-page report, “Extermination and Acts of Genocide: Israel Deliberately Depriving Palestinians in Gaza of Water,” Human Rights Watch found that Israeli authorities have intentionally deprived Palestinians in Gaza of access to safe water for... > **[Israel’s Crime of Extermination, Acts of Genocide in Gaza](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/12/19/israels-crime-extermination-acts-genocide-gaza)** > > Israeli authorities have intentionally deprived Palestinian civilians in Gaza of adequate access to water since October 2023, most likely resulting in thousands of deaths and thus committing the crime against humanity of extermination and acts of... The UN Special Comittee: > [@](#): > > Israel’s warfare in Gaza is consistent with the characteristics of genocide, with mass civilian casualties and life-threatening conditions intentionally imposed on Palestinians there, the UN Special Committee to investigate Israeli practices\* said in a new [report](https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/thematic-reports/a79363-report-special-committee-investigate-israeli-practices-affecting) released today. > > “Since the beginning of the war, Israeli officials have publicly supported policies that strip Palestinians of the very necessities required to sustain life — food, water, and fuel,” the Committee said. “These statements along with the systematic and unlawful interference of humanitarian aid make clear Israel’s intent to instrumentalise life-saving supplies for political and military gains.” [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/11/un-special-committee-finds-israels-warfare-methods-gaza-consistent-genocide](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/11/un-special-committee-finds-israels-warfare-methods-gaza-consistent-genocide) The report: > **[Document Viewer](https://docs.un.org/en/A/79/363)** From the Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention > [@](#): > > Since 7 October, Israel has carried out a systematic campaign of mass killing against innocent Palestinian civilians, along with the destruction of civilian infrastructure, including housing, cultural and religious sites, and medical facilities. Its military operations have also led to disruptions in the supply of essential services, including water, electricity, and telecommunications. Additionally, the almost three-month siege that has been illegally imposed on the enclave, the effects of which are increased by persistent interruptions in the supply of humanitarian aid, only increases the suffering of the Palestinian population. > > The Lemkin Institute believes that Israel’s retaliation against Palestinians amounts not only to war crimes and crimes against humanity, but also to genocide, as also asserted by, among others, the former Director of the New York Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Craig Mokhiber. > **[Statement on Why We Call the Israeli Attack on Gaza Genocide](https://www.lemkininstitute.com/statements-new-page/statement-on-why-we-call-the-israeli-attack-on-gaza-genocide)** > > December 29, 2023 > > The Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention, increasingly concerned about the deteriorating > humanitarian situation in the territory of the State of Palestine (including Gaza and the West > Bank), which has already resulted in the... From historian Amos Goldberg, the Jonah M. Machover Chair in Holocaust Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. > [@](#): > > Yes, it is genocide. Although it is so difficult and painful to admit it and despite all efforts to think otherwise, after six months of brutal war, this conclusion can no longer be avoided. Jewish history will henceforth be stained with the mark of Cain, the “crime of crimes,” which cannot be erased from its forehead. As such, it will stand the judgment of the generations. > > (note: English translation by Google translate) > **[Amos Goldberg: 'What is happening in Gaza is a genocide because Gaza does not...](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/opinion/article/2024/10/29/amos-goldberg-what-is-happening-in-gaza-is-a-genocide-because-gaza-does-not-exist-anymore_6730881_23.html)** > > Given the scale of the massacres and destruction perpetrated by the Israeli army in Gaza, the Israeli historian, a specialist of the Holocaust, says in an interview with Le Monde that his country 'criminally overreacted' to the October 7 massacres. The most comprehensive case for g… comes from the South African submission to the International Court of Justice that addresses each element of the Convention and makes legal arguments that support the contention that Israel is indeed, committing g… in Gaza. > **[South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf](https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf)** > > 1521.44 KB The hardest part normally is proving intent. But in this particular case: this isn’t proving difficult at all. In the South African submission expressions of g…l intent is covered from pages 59. This submission was made in January 2024. Since then: there have been multiple additional statements. The ICJ ordered provisional measures that Israel had to take: from Ammnesty: > [@](#): > > The ruling issued by the ICJ ordered six provisional measures including for Israel to refrain from acts under the Genocide convention, prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to genocide, and take immediate and effective measures to ensure the provision of humanitarian assistance to civilians in Gaza. Crucially, the Court also ordered Israel to preserve evidence of genocide and to submit a report to the Court, within one month, of all measures taken in line with its order. > **[Israel must comply with ICJ ruling](https://amnesty.org.nz/israel-must-comply-with-icj-ruling/)** > > World leaders must do everything in their power to uphold their obligation to prevent genocide. Israel ignored the court. In February this year, the South African delegation submitted a “public dossier of openly available evidence on the State of Israel’s acts of g… against the Palestinians in Gaza, as of 4 February 2025" to the ICJ. > **[Document Viewer](https://docs.un.org/en/S/2025/130)** A few months ago: Israel broke the ceasefire and launched another massive wave of bombings and attacks. From Ammnesty: > [@](#): > > “The extent of human suffering in Gaza for the past 19 months has been unimaginable, and it is a direct consequence of Israel’s ongoing genocide. Apart from a brief respite during the temporary truce, Israel has relentlessly and mercilessly turned Gaza into an inferno of death and destruction,” Erika Guevara Rosas, Senior Director for Research, Advocacy, Policy, and Campaigns at Amnesty International. > > “For the past two months, Israel has completely cut off the supply of humanitarian aid and other items indispensable to the survival of civilians in a clear and calculated effort to collectively punish over two million civilians and to make Gaza unlivable. This is genocide in action. > **[Israel/OPT: Two months of cruel and inhumane siege are further evidence of...](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2025/05/israel-opt-two-months-of-cruel-and-inhumane-siege-are-further-evidence-of-israels-genocidal-intent-in-gaza/)** > > Israel must immediately end its devastating siege on the occupied Gaza Strip which constitutes a genocidal act, a blatant form of unlawful collective punishment, and the war crime of using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare And thats where we are now. Israel are now attacking and flattening Gaza City. It isn’t going to stop there. You can ignore those particular scholars if you want. There are plenty of other scholars and humanitarian agencies and experts who will argue the very same thing. There is a very clear consensus. The reason why one side has to resort to “cheap stunts” is because thats all they have. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5200 "2025-09-05T00:20:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …how much research did you do into the New Zealaind Israeli Institute before you decided to post this? Or the author or the article, Greg Bouwer? Absolutely nothing; I saw that the IAGS organization was complete horseshit elsewhere and linked the first article that came up on Google related to the topic. At least unlike Al Jazeera reporters, he’s not a Hamas fighter, eh? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > “Adolf Hitler” wasn’t a member _before_ the scholars backed the resolution. It was a deliberate stunt designed to bring into question the legitimacy of the organisation and they joined AFTER the scholars backed the resolution. Bouwer chose to not include this information in the article you cited. I’m sure that all the “scholars” who signed on to the declaration are of equal caliber. With rigorous quality controls like the IAGS employs, how could that be in doubt? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The reason why one side has to resort to “cheap stunts” is because thats all they have. Right, that’s why Iran paid off the South African ruling party’s election debt in exchange for them publishing a laughable report where they quote sentence fragments from politicians and whole sentences from soccer players. That’s precisely right: a cheap stunt. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5201 "2025-09-05T00:52:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Absolutely nothing; I saw that the IAGS organization was complete horseshit elsewhere and linked the first article that came up on Google related to the topic. …IAGS are not “complete horseshit”. This cheap stunt was nothing but a cheap stunt. > [@Babale](#): > > At least unlike Al Jazeera reporters, he’s not a Hamas fighter, eh? No: none of the Al Jazeera reporters were active Hamas fighters when they were assassinated by the IDF. Those were IDF warcrimes. The IDF killed yet another journalist a few days ago. [Rasmi Jihad Salem.](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-strike-kills-another-journalist-in-gaza-death-toll-rises-to-248/3676678) And before that they killed [Islam Abed](https://www.newarab.com/news/islam-abed-becomes-latest-gaza-reporter-killed-israel) along with her husband and children. Did you know the IDF have killed well over 24 women journalists? It was 24 in March. At least two more have been killed since then. [https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-forces-killed-24-palestinian-female-journalists-during-war-on-gaza-government-spokesperson/3503891](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-forces-killed-24-palestinian-female-journalists-during-war-on-gaza-government-spokesperson/3503891) The IDF should stop targeting and murdering journalists. And they should also stop murdering journalists families. > [@](#): > > I’m sure that all the “scholars” who signed on to the declaration are of equal caliber. With rigorous quality controls like the IAGS employs, how could that be in doubt? Thats the thing. This is something that is verifiable, easily tested, and worthy of reporting. You can look up the people who signed the resolution. Bouwer could have done that. Instead? Cheap stunt. > [@Babale](#): > > Right, that’s why Iran paid off the South African ruling party’s election debt in exchange for them Woah. We are gonna need a cite for this one. In particular, for the “in exchange for them” part. > [@](#): > > publishing a laughable report where they quote sentence fragments from politicians and whole sentences from soccer players. That’s precisely right: a cheap stunt. I’ve linked to both the report and the follow-up dossier of evidence presented to the ICJ. Everyone can check it out for yourselves. It includes much more than " sentence fragments from politicians and whole sentences from soccer players." This was a case taken to the International Court of Justice. They don’t entertain “cheap stunts.” The case was strong enough that the ICJ ordered interim measures on Israel in order to prevent g… You can’t compare this to a handful of internet trolls filling out a form with the name “Adolf Hitler.” This wasn’t “laughable.” It was deadly serious, describing a deadly strategy, and his was all very obvious back in January 2024 when it was submitted to the court. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5202 "2025-09-05T18:37:23Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Iran paid off the South African ruling party’s election debt Reduced to repeating last year’s ISGAP-originated conspiracy theories, Babale? Why should we believe anything the Israeli Government’s paid-for “think-tank” puts out? This _hasbara_ is so obvious it’s ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2025, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5203 "2025-09-05T20:55:32Z")
Sorry if this is old news but ap is reporting that the infamous camera that Isreal bombed a hospital over was used by a reuters journalist, and that (well this part is definitely old news) the bombing was way more destructive than would be necessary to take out a camera. > **[AP reporting calls into question why and how Israel attacked a Gaza hospital](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-strikes-hospital-journalists-75e79272f3acc37fa8acb653e45d564c)** > > Associated Press reporting into an Israeli attack that killed 22 people at a Gaza Strip hospital, including five journalists, raises questions about Israel’s rationale for the attack and the way it was carried out. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2025, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5204 "2025-09-08T10:16:12Z")
> **[Israel’s top court says government is not giving Palestinian prisoners enough...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/07/israels-supreme-court-says-government-is-not-giving-palestinian-prisoners-enough-food)** > > Justices rule state is legally obliged to ensure ‘basic level of existence’ and orders authorities to improve nutrition It’s not just Gaza - the Israeli government isn’t properly feeding Palestinian _prisoners_ entirely under their control. And this is according to an Israeli court! This Israeli government is monstrous and every bit as evil as Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2025, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5205 "2025-09-08T10:33:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > that’s why Iran paid off the South African ruling party’s election debt I think a cite might be needed here. It would be a massive scandal, and the talk of the media for months. Instead all I find is a local investigative journalism online newspaper stating that such rumours exist, but not coming to a conclusion either way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2025, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5206 "2025-09-08T13:22:23Z")
And at the same time as the intentional mass starvation in Gaza and Israeli prisons, settlers in the WB continue to brutalize civilians, including children and the elderly, with no consequences: > **[At least three Palestinians wounded as dozens of settlers raid West Bank village](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-09-05/ty-article/.premium/at-least-three-palestinians-wounded-as-dozens-of-settlers-raid-west-bank-village/00000199-1851-da27-a7fd-9d739b3e0000)** > > Khallet al-Daba Locals Said a Baby and an Elderly Couple Were Among Those Wounded in the Attack. The Village Is Part of the Masafer Yatta Area, Home to Over 1,000 Palestinians Under Continuous Threat of Displacement by Israeli Settlers, Authorities... ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5207 "2025-09-09T14:21:41Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > It would be a massive scandal, and the talk of the media for months. Instead all I find is a local investigative journalism online newspaper stating that such rumours exist, but not coming to a conclusion either way. Has there been an official investigation into those rumors? Or did the ANC declare that there’s nothing to investigate and not bother to do so? To be fair to the ANC, I’m sure they already know exactly what they did, so there _isn’t_ much point in an investigation. It’s not like these are insubstantial “rumors”; the evidence is pretty damning: [https://www.jns.org/did-iran-and-qatar-pay-anc-to-prosecute-israel-at-the-icj/](https://www.jns.org/did-iran-and-qatar-pay-anc-to-prosecute-israel-at-the-icj/) > [@](#): > > One area of particular interest is the financing of the ANC’s election campaign. The ANC was in substantial debt ahead of the May 2024 general election. The report states: “In 2022, for example, the party considered selling off assets to pay off a reported 500 million rand (roughly $27.7 million) in debt. > > “Curiously, in early January 2024, S.A. President Cyril Ramaphosa announced that the ANC had mysteriously managed to stabilize its finances, pay off its staggering debt, and recover from the verge of bankruptcy, without providing any specifics on how this had occurred. > > “Crucially, this money appeared in the ANC’s coffers without explanation, mere days after the South African government brought its case against Israel at the ICJ,” the report notes. … Meanwhile, I’m very excited to see how all the people who demanded to know why Israel isn’t just striking Hamas leadership in Doha pull off a total 180 and declare that Israel is evil for attacking Hamas targets in Qatar. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5208 "2025-09-09T16:05:07Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Meanwhile, I’m very excited to see how all the people who demanded to know why Israel isn’t just striking Hamas leadership in Doha pull off a total 180 and declare that Israel is evil for attacking Hamas targets in Qatar. Pointing out that Israel is bombing the wrong Arabs Is not an invitation to bomb Qatar. In any case Qatar is not amused. Especially since the solution to Gaza issues is entirely political not military. What could be gained by eliminating militarists you have already totally defeated? Just more Israeli propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5209 "2025-09-09T16:15:47Z")
The ANC being in debt, well… what day is it today? Tuesday? This is normal. They periodically cannot pay their staff… There has not been any substantive evidence put forward, yet. Now, I am not a fan of the ANC, but OK. Let’s say they did accept funding in order to approach the UN. Problems: we have a robust (I love that word when it refers to politicians fighting) system. Any weakness would be explored. Our minority EFF would explode. The 2nd biggest party, the DA, despite being fairly Israel friendly, would be forced to act. The ANC is in a precarious position in many areas, and has been so rocked by scandal after scandal, many of them financial, that if it came out that it has accepted money from Qatar et al, it would be a national embarrassment. We have a much larger Muslim minority than the Jewish minority, and I see Palestinian flags far, far more than Israeli flags. But there is just not the groundswell for the people to support pro-Israel or pro-Palestine outcomes. We have more than our own share of socio-economic problems without getting too involved. The UN petition - while I feel is warranted - means nothing, really. Israel already ignores 79 or more UN resolutions, what is one more? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5210 "2025-09-09T16:22:48Z")
It appears that the Israeli attack on Doha was against the key Palestinian negotiator. Perhaps the Israel apologists can explain the logic in that. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5211 "2025-09-09T16:25:08Z")
They don’t want to reach an agreement? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5212 "2025-09-09T16:27:07Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > It appears that the Israeli attack on Doha was against the key Palestinian negotiator. Perhaps the Israel apologists can explain the logic in that. Clearly, the Palestinian leadership doesn’t feel any pressure to make a deal when Gaza is bombed, which is why they’ve rejected deal after deal (after deal after deal after deal). Pressuring them directly sounds like a great idea. And if Hamas would rather keep fighting until their leaders are dead and their new leaders change their minds, that’s fine too. Anyways, thanks for proving my point! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5213 "2025-09-09T16:28:35Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > The ANC being in debt, well… what day is it today? Tuesday? This is normal. They periodically cannot pay their staff… The suspicious bit isn’t that they were in debt; it’s that a massive amount of debt disappeared magically just days after South Africa filed their frivolous lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5214 "2025-09-09T17:36:49Z")
I feel very bad for the remaining hostages and their families. The Israeli government just demonstrated how low a priority they are by blowing up the negotiators rather than working to get the hostages back. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5215 "2025-09-09T17:43:11Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > The Israeli government just demonstrated how low a priority they are by blowing up the negotiators rather than working to get the hostages back. The Israeli government has been working with those negotiators to get them back for literally years. Hamas has been very clear that they’re not willing to accept any deal that involves the disarming of Hamas, so at this time there is no deal that’s possible. When that’s the situation, you keep fighting until the other side is willing to negotiate. And targeting Hamas leaders might mean they care more about the pressure imposed on them than targeting anyone in Gaza does, since they’ve clearly demonstrated that they don’t give a fuck about anyone in Gaza beyond the brownie points they can score with the West by getting them killed. And with all due respect, getting the hostages back _should_ be a lower priority than _ensuring that Hamas can’t do this again_. A huge part of the reason why we are _in this mess_ is that in the past we priorized getting prisoners back above even the most basic common sense, releasing over a thousand terrorists including Sinwar himself in exchange for Gilad Shalit. Securing the release of prisoners is not worth creating the situation that causes hundreds to be killed and kidnapped in the future. I said this in 2023 and it’s still true today. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5216 "2025-09-09T18:48:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > releasing over a thousand terrorists Why the terrorist label? Israels’ stated reason for killing citizens in Gaza is to exert political pressure on Hamas. I believe that is terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5217 "2025-09-09T19:02:12Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Israels’ stated reason for killing citizens in Gaza is to exert political pressure on Hamas Wow, what a claim! I’m sure you have _any sort of evidence whatsoever_ for the claim that “Israel’s stated reason for killing civilians in Gaza is to exert political pressure on Hamas”? I mean, you said that it’s Israel’s _stated_ reason, so it should be _trivially_ easy to provide that this statement actually exists, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=253) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=255)