# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 255
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5218 "2025-09-09T19:37:02Z")
It sure is a good thing that Israel has Netanyahu to lead in this trying time! How amazing that he’s managed every military decision since Oct 7th so incredible perfectly! ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5219 "2025-09-09T19:53:54Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > They don’t want to reach an agreement? When have they indicated they wanted to reach an agreement? What they _did_ say, in 2023, was that [every Hamas member was a dead man](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082351). Given that everything they say is at best bullshit, they are being remarkably consistent on this. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5220 "2025-09-10T00:35:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s not like these are insubstantial “rumors”; the evidence is pretty damning: …there is absolutely nothing “damming” about this at all. What you shared is a baseless _conspiracy theory_. And for anyone that actually followed the case, doesn’t even make any sense. Because: > [@Babale](#): > > just days after South Africa filed their frivolous lawsuit. it wasn’t a “_frivolous lawsuit._” A reminder: this is the case we are talking about. > **[South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf](https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf)** > > 1521.44 KB Everybody should read it. It lays out just how bad things were _by the end of 2023_. It shows how Israel were laying the groundwork for _what we are seeing now_. Endless slaughter. Deliberate famine. The result was the International Court of Justice ordered interim measures _in order to prevent gen\_\_\_\_\__ Again, a reminder of what this “frivolous lawsuit” resulted in: > [@Ammnesty](#): > > “The ruling issued by the ICJ ordered six provisional measures including for Israel to refrain from acts under the Genocide convention, prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to genocide, and take immediate and effective measures to ensure the provision of humanitarian assistance to civilians in Gaza. Crucially, the Court also ordered Israel to preserve evidence of genocide and to submit a report to the Court, within one month, of all measures taken in line with its order.” > **[Israel must comply with ICJ ruling](https://amnesty.org.nz/israel-must-comply-with-icj-ruling/)** > > World leaders must do everything in their power to uphold their obligation to prevent genocide. If South Africa hadn’t taken the case to the ICJ then _someone else would have_. The evidence was overwhelming then: the evidence is overwhelming _now_. And the amount of work that has been put into this application, that continues to this day and includes this dossier of new evidence submitted this year. > **[Document Viewer](https://docs.un.org/en/S/2025/130)** So let’s sum this up. South Africa presented a case to the ICJ that was compelling enough that the ICJ _issued interim measures to prevent gen\_\_\_._ Lets pretend for a minute that Iran _did_ give money to South Africa to take this case to the ICJ. (even though Babale has presented no evidence of this, except for a matter of _timing_) The case _was still valid_. The evidence they presented to the court is still evidence. And that evidence showed that _as far back as December 2023_ Israel were deliberately targeting hospitals, Mosques, schools, cemeteries, farmland, they were killing journalists and scholars and medical workers, they had targeted water and sanitation facilities, cultural and archaeological sites. There is an entire section that also covers _intent_. It’s all _right there_. Both submissions total over 300 pages and are meticulously cited. > [@Babale](#): > > Meanwhile, I’m very excited to see how all the people who demanded to know why Israel isn’t just striking Hamas leadership in Doha pull off a total 180 and declare that Israel is evil for attacking Hamas targets in Qatar. So far this week Israel have: Bombed Syria. Breached the ceasefire with Lebanon and bombed targets in Bekaa and Hermel districts, killing five. Were almost certainly responsible for an attack on the aid flotilla currently in port in Tunisia. Destroyed 50 apartment blocks in just two days in Gaza, claiming (again without evidence) that they were “high rise terror towers”, killing many and leaving thousands more people homeless and without shelter. For those that didn’t even know this was happening, this is what that looks like: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/zgy-9QSnA4s/maxresdefault.jpg "Israeli missiles bring down high-rise apartment building in Gaza City") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgy-9QSnA4s) Israel are a rogue state that is ignoring international law and destabilising the region. This strike doesn’t bring anyone closer to “peace.” Does this mean Israel is evil? The people? No. Netanyahu’s government? I think “evil” fits. > [@Babale](#): > > Clearly, the Palestinian leadership doesn’t feel any pressure to make a deal when Gaza is bombed, which is why they’ve rejected deal after deal (after deal after deal after deal). A reminder that _there was a deal._ That Palestinian leadership HAD accepted a deal. A ceasefire _was_ in place. The hostages were being released. Then Israel _literally blew the deal up_. Israel broke the ceasefire. Israel stopped all food and aid from entering the strip for months. And even now its only allowing a trickle of food and even less aid into Gaza. Gaza is now in famine: all deliberately engineered by Israel. And Israel are killing the negotiators. They’ve done this before, and they just tried to do it again now. Because lets be quite clear about it: Israel (as in the government) _don’t want peace_. Which is why Netanyahu has sabotaged every single attempt to bring this war to an end. > [@Babale](#): > > Hamas has been very clear that they’re not willing to accept any deal that involves the disarming of Hamas, so at this time there is no deal that’s possible. Hamas have made it clear they will accept a deal that means they are no longer in power in Gaza any more, and to hand it over to another Palestinian authority. That should be enough to _stop waging a war on Gaza._ Because they would no longer be the government, right? They can end the mindless, endless slaughter. They could end the famine. They could then just target the leadership. > [@Babale](#): > > And targeting Hamas leaders All this talk about “targeting Hamas leaders” might have mean something back in December 2023. But after two years of targeting journalists and medical staff and aid workers and hospitals and schools and engineering a famine, it just rings a bit hollow. > [@Babale](#): > > And with all due respect, getting the hostages back _should_ be a lower priority than _ensuring that Hamas can’t do this again_. Again: the idea that the IDF are so horribly incompetent that after everything we’ve seen over the last two years, they would _still_ be capable of the redoing the multiple failures that happened on October the 7th is telling. > [@Babale](#): > > A huge part of the reason why we are _in this mess_ is that in the past we priorized getting prisoners back above even the most basic common sense, releasing over a thousand terrorists including Sinwar himself in exchange for Gilad Shalit. A HUGE part of the reason why you (collective you, not you personally) are in this mess is because most of those “thousands of terrorists” weren’t actually terrorists at all. A reminder that this exists: > [@Administrative Detention](#): > > Israel routinely uses administrative detention and has, over the years, placed thousands of Palestinians behind by bars for periods ranging from several months to several years, without charging them, without telling them what they are accused of, and without disclosing the alleged evidence to them or to their lawyers. Some of the detainees were under 18 years of age. [https://www.btselem.org/administrative\_detention](https://www.btselem.org/administrative_detention) A reminder that even right now, an American teenager, aged 15, is _being held right now._ > [@the Guardian](#): > > The teen, who splits his time between Palm Bay, Florida, and the West Bank, was 15 when Israeli soldiers arrested him from his home in the West Bank in February. He has since developed scabies\*\*,\*\* according to state department emails to the family, and lost at least 25lbs, his lawyer says. > … > The teenager is now being held at [Israel’s Ofer prison](https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell), which the coalition described as notorious for abusing Palestinian children. He was previously detained at Megiddo prison, where a 17-year-old Palestinian teenager [died in April](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinian-prisoner-teenager-dead-874271e9c7afe095310143233aec0d38?taid=67ebf3dae1586a00015f6f60&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter) from what advocates described as abusive conditions. > … > The groups argue Ibrahim’s imprisonment violates the fourth Geneva convention’s prohibition on transferring detainees from occupied territory to the occupying power’s territory. He is among 323 Palestinian children aged 12-17 currently held in Israeli military detention, according to Defense for Children International-Palestine. > **[US groups demand release of American-Palestinian teen imprisoned by Israel](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/aug/26/american-palestinian-teenager-israeli-prison)** > > More than 100 organizations advocate for freedom of 16-year-old dual citizen detained for more than six months You simply cannot treat a group of people like this for _decades_ and not expect them to eventually fight back. “Securing the release of the prisoners” isn’t what created the situation now. It’s _continuing_ to take prisoners, treating them inhumanely, starving them, torturing them, not charging them, that helped contribute to what we are seeing now. Not that this _excuses_ the Hamas atrocities of October the 7th. But the idea that continuing to hold thousands of Palestinians in detention in inhumane conditions without charge would have _prevented_ October 7th just doesn’t hold water. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5221 "2025-09-10T02:12:35Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The result was the International Court of Justice ordered interim measures _in order to prevent gen\_\_\_\_\__ > > Again, a reminder of what this “frivolous lawsuit” resulted in: A reminder that this framing is long debunked > **[Former head of ICJ explains ruling on genocide case against Israel brought by...](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919)** > > Joan Donoghue speaks to BBC Hardtalk about the case brought by South Africa to the ICJ over alleged violations of the Genocide Convention by Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5222 "2025-09-10T02:54:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > A reminder that this framing is long debunked > > [Former head of ICJ explains ruling on genocide case against Israel brought by S Africa](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919) …directly from the International Court of Justice: > [@ICJ](#): > > 1. The Court considers that, with regard to the situation described above, \*\*Israel must, in accordance with its obligations under the Genocide Convention, in relation to Palestinians in Gaza, take all measures within its power **to prevent the commission of all acts within the scope of Article II of this Convention** , in particular: (a) killing members of the group; (b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; and (d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group. The Court recalls that these acts fall within the scope of Article II of the Convention when they are committed with the intent to destroy in whole or in part a group as such (see paragraph 44 above). > > The Court further considers that **Israel must ensure with immediate effect that its military forces do not commit any of the above-described acts.** > **[192-20240126-ord-01-00-en.pdf](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-ord-01-00-en.pdf)** > > 638.19 KB Bolding mine. That’s _exactly as I said_. There was nothing inaccurate in my “framing.” Nothing was “debunked” long ago. This didn’t result from a “frivolous lawsuit.” And even if Iran did pay for it (and to be clear, there is no evidence they did) the _evidence stands on its own._ Again: I encourage everyone to read what the ICJ actually said, and to look at the evidence that was presented to the court. The situation we are in right now is that South Africa and the countries supporting them _were trying to prevent_. The interim measures ordered by the court were to stop what Israel before it got to this. But it’s here now. We can’t turn a blind eye. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5223 "2025-09-10T05:32:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > the evidence is pretty damnin What _evidence_? I see no evidence in your cite. Evidence would be bank statements or _something_ concrete. This is just smearing - by an _known_ paid-for arm of the Israeli government. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5224 "2025-09-10T17:09:25Z")
> **[Israeli officials said to doubt success of strike on Hamas leaders in Doha](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-officials-said-to-doubt-success-of-strike-on-hamas-leaders-in-doha/)** > > Top defense officials cited as having opposed strike's timing; Israel, US reportedly promised Doha that Hamas wouldn't be hit in Qatar; Trump 'not thrilled about whole situation' Times of Israel reporting that Israeli defense officials advised against the attack on Qatar “at this time" and don’t believe it was successful in killing Hamas officials. I can’t get a ton of clarity by my read of the article as to what was meant by '“at this time" - that they thought it was an extreme measure that shouldny be taken given the big picture state of the war or negotiations, ot that they thought they needed to time it differently or be more prepared for it to be successful. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2025, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5225 "2025-09-10T17:26:53Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > All this talk about “targeting Hamas leaders” might have mean something back in December 2023. But after two years of targeting journalists and medical staff and aid workers and hospitals and schools and engineering a famine, it just rings a bit hollow. This. At this point all I can think about it is “this is irrelevant, there’s ongoing ethnic cleansing, stop it”. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2025, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5226 "2025-09-14T23:45:27Z")
…from today from the Minister of Defense: > [@Israels Minister of Defense](#): > > The “Islamic” University in Gaza is going up in smoke. > Eliminating the sources of incitement and terror. > And another one: > [@](#): > > The house of cards. The skyline of Gaza is changing. > (translations by Twitter) They aren’t even _pretending_ that this is a “war on Hamas” any more. There are videos after videos of entire neighbourhoods being demolished. Reports on the ground suggest that there were still people in the Islamic University while the Minister was gloating: they had returned to retrieve belongings when it was hit again in a triple tap. People were living there. Now they are either homeless again…or dead. Here is the latest Flash Update. > **[Humanitarian Situation Update #321 | Gaza Strip | United Nations Office for...](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/humanitarian-situation-update-321-gaza-strip)** > > Nearly one million people estimated to be in Gaza city, where famine has been confirmed, are facing daily bombardment and compromised access to means of survival after the Israeli military placed the entire city under a displacement order. I struggled to read this one because the situation is so dire. I can’t even tell how many hospitals are still open: but half of all currently operational hospitals are in Gaza City which is under evacuation orders, and Gaza City is going to be flattened, just like Rafah. I can’t even bring myself to summarise this one. Y’all can all read it for yourself. But it’s worse than it’s ever been. And considering how “doom and gloom” I’ve been since the start of the thread, that’s saying a lot. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2025, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5227 "2025-09-15T01:29:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Evidence would be bank statements or _something_ concrete. Bank statements? Those are not released without a court order. That is unreasonable. _“Curiously, in early January 2024, S.A. President Cyril Ramaphosa announced that the ANC had mysteriously managed to stabilize its finances, pay off its staggering debt, and recover from the verge of bankruptcy, without providing any specifics on how this had occurred._ _“Crucially, this money appeared in the ANC’s coffers without explanation, mere days after the South African government brought its case against Israel at the ICJ,” the report notes._ Unless the answer is “a wizard did it” that _is_ damning evidence. Especially as no explanation has been forthcoming. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2025, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5228 "2025-09-15T07:43:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Bank statements? Those are not released without a court order. That is unreasonable. …it’s entirely reasonable. It’s a rather serious accusation. If you are going to make it: then get the court order already. If there really is a scandal here, then someone would be able to do it. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Unless the answer is “a wizard did it” that _is_ damning evidence. Especially as no explanation has been forthcoming. Can you be a bit more specific on what part of these two entirely different events you see as 'damming?" Firstly you are assuming the reporting from the ISGAP (funded historically mostly from the Israeli government) is accurate, secondly if it is accurate, that the money came from Iran. Where is the evidence for that? There is nothing “damning” here. It’s a conspiracy theory at best. A reminder for those that didn’t follow along at the time: here is the background on the case. > **[South Africa's genocide case against Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa%27s_genocide_case_against_Israel)** > > The Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in the Gaza Strip (South Africa v. Israel) is an ongoing case that was brought before the International Court of Justice on 29 December 2023 by South Africa regarding Israel's conduct in the Gaza Strip during the Gaza war, that resulted in a humanitarian crisis and mass killings. > South Africa alleged that Israel had committed and was committing genocide in Gaza, contravening the Genocide Convention, in... The case was bought urgently to the ICJ because Israeli spokespeople were saying gen\_\_\_\_ things, the IDF were targeting civilians targets and civilian infrastructure and had ordered the north of Gaza cleared. They were bombing hospitals and schools and Mosques. It’s all right there in the submission. I’ll link to it once again. > **[South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf](https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf)** > > 1521.44 KB There isn’t any big secret why the case was bought to the ICJ. The answer to that question can be found simply by _reading the case._ ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2025, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5229 "2025-09-15T10:26:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > S.A. President Cyril Ramaphosa announced that the ANC had mysteriously managed to stabilize its finances He actually said “mysteriously”? That’s some unbiased reporting there. 🤣 Like how they’re quoting the aforementioned ISGAP, and incidentally disingenuously referring to that mostly-Israeli-government-funded “thinktank” as _American_. As if we can’t track the payments for propaganda directly in this case (unlike, say, in the case of the ANC). And still no evidence, just ISGAP’s innuendo. This is not even _good_ hasbara. It’s obvious, it’s stale, and it’s meaningless, anyway - _regardless of_ if Iran funded it, the SA case stood on the merits - and stood very well, as the court’s initial finding showed.. Although, neat trick of South Africa’s lawyers to pull a whole ICJ case together from scratch in a mere 3 months. That’s quite a feat, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2025, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5230 "2025-09-15T13:03:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Although, neat trick of South Africa’s lawyers to pull a whole ICJ case together from scratch in a mere 3 months. That’s quite a feat, actually. Copy-pasting single sentence chunks out of speeches to misleadingly make it look like people are advocating genocide is easy. So is quoting soccer players and musicians. Anyone can put together a steaming heap of shit like that in three months, especially if Iran is paying them. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …it’s entirely reasonable. It’s a rather serious accusation. If you are going to make it: then get the court order already. 🤣 I’m sure the ANC will be ordering themselves to release the bank documents any day now. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2025, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5231 "2025-09-15T13:27:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Copy-pasting single sentence chunks out of speeches to misleadingly make it look like people are advocating genocide is easy. Easier when there’s just so many genocidal statements to choose from… “misleadingly” my ass. Seriously, if the case was _that_ flimsy, Israel would have prevailed in their defence. The outcome to date speaks for itself. Unless the entire ICC bench is just another Iranian front 🙄 And any evidence other than Israeli-paid-for CT babble still glaringly absent. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2025, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5232 "2025-09-15T13:32:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Seriously, if the case was _that_ flimsy, Israel would have prevailed in their defence. The outcome to date speaks for itself. What “outcome” are you referring to? Are you still trying to pass off the ICC saying “it is plausible that if the claims that are being made are true than the Palestinians have a case that can be brought by South Africa” as the ICC saying “it is plausible that Israel is committing a genocide”? > [@](#): > > Ms Donoghue explained that the court decided the Palestinians had a “plausible right” to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court. > > She said that, contrary to some reporting, the court did not make a ruling on whether the claim of genocide was plausible, but it did emphasise in its order that there was a risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide. > **[Former head of ICJ explains ruling on genocide case against Israel brought by...](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919)** > > Joan Donoghue speaks to BBC Hardtalk about the case brought by South Africa to the ICJ over alleged violations of the Genocide Convention by Israel. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2025, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5233 "2025-09-15T13:44:52Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What “outcome” are you referring to? The court’s rapid response to the calls for further measures after the initial provisional measures gives a good indication of which way they’re leaning. I’d characterize that as a good outcome. I’m also sure the arrest warrants out for Bibi and Gallant are _completely_ unrelated in any way to the timing of the South African case…/s > [@Babale](#): > > Are you still trying to pass off What are you talking about? Are you confusing me with someone else? I’m well aware the SA ICC case is still underway. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2025, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5234 "2025-09-15T13:49:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The court’s rapid response to the calls for further measures after the initial provisional measures gives a good indication of which way they’re leaning. I’d characterize that as a good outcome. Ahhh, I’d never heard the term “outcome” used to refer to a process _starting_ before, but that’s a very interesting usage. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2025, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5235 "2025-09-15T14:03:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Ahhh, I’d never heard the term “outcome” used to refer to a process _starting_ before It’s a synonym of “consequence”, and processes can have consequences before they’re concluded. Like Bibi having to be extra careful where he makes holiday plans for. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2025, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5236 "2025-09-15T20:10:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And still no evidence, just ISGAP’s innuendo. The debt was paid off. That is evidence. If the IRS found out that all someone’s debts had been paid off- to a very larger amount-, with no obvious explanation, they would audit that person and if no valid explanation was forthcoming, they would charge it as taxable income. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2025, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5237 "2025-09-15T23:30:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If the IRS found out that all someone’s debts had been paid off- to a very larger amount-, with no obvious explanation, they would audit that person and if no valid explanation was forthcoming, they would charge it as taxable income. …what the IRS wouldn’t do is claim that “Iran paid off the South African ruling party’s election debt in exchange for them taking a case to the International Court of Justice” with absolutely no evidence at all. Because _that is the claim under dispute here_. This isn’t a thread to discuss the ANC’s finances. The ANC’s finances are only relevant if it somehow related to the case South Africa took to the ICJ. Earlier in the thread people criticised me for citing Al Jazeera. Yet this report was produced by the ISGAP, with Alan Dershowitz co-chair on the international board, who is not exactly [unbiased](https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/1/5/dershowitz-israel-icj/) when it comes to this particular case, which gets almost all of its funding from the government of Israel, _one of the parties to this case_. Do you actually think the reporting here is independent? Then we dive deeper into the actual report, and it turns out that it’s over 50 pages of _waffle_. Read it for yourself. > **[SA\_Report\_Final\_121124-1.pdf](https://isgap.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/SA_Report_Final_121124-1.pdf)** > > 3.08 MB On the matter of Iran allegedly paying off the South African ruling party’s election debt in exchange for them taking a case to the International Court of Justice: it provides exactly zero evidence of this. However, it spends pages quoting people who imagine that _perhaps, maybe they did_. The claim has zero credibility. When you have some independent reporting on this, then perhaps it would be worth revisiting. But as it is: there is nothing there. > [@Babale](#): > > Copy-pasting single sentence chunks out of speeches to misleadingly make it look like people are advocating genocide is easy. So is quoting soccer players and musicians. Anyone can put together a steaming heap of shit like that in three months, especially if Iran is paying them. You are mischaracterising that particular section, but fortunately I’ve provided the link to the report so that people can check it out for themselves. It firstly cites the Prime Minister of Israel, followed by the President of Israel, the Minister of Defence, then the Minister of National Security, then the Minister of Energy and Infrastructure, the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Heritage, the Minister of Agriculture, then the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset. That’s just the government. It then quotes a spokesperson from COGAT, a reservist Major General, the head of the Air Operations Group, a Commander, and the Deputy Head of COGAT. As for the “soccer players and musicians”, the point being made was that (from the report) _"Similar genocidal rhetoric is also commonplace in Israeli civil society, with genocidal messages_ _being routinely broadcast — without censure or sanction — in Israeli media."_ I can’t even find exactly what you are referring to here, but I’m assuming it’s one of a large number of footnotes related to and supporting this particular claim. Because the only reference to musicians I could find was this: > [@submission to the ICJ](#): > > Along with its destruction of the physical monuments to the history and heritage of the > Palestinians in Gaza, Israel has sought to destroy the very Palestinian people who form and create that heritage: Gaza’s celebrated journalists, its teachers, intellectuals and public figures, its doctors and nurses, its film-makers, writers and singers, the directors and deans of its universities, the heads of its > hospitals, its eminent scientists, linguists, playwrights, novelists, artists and musicians. Israel has killed and is killing Palestinian story-tellers and poets, Palestinian farmers and fishermen, alongside Gaza’s local legends: pastry chef Masoud Muhammad al-Qatati, killed in an Israeli airstrike on his house on 3 November 2023, whose shop’s motto ‘let the poor eat’ — and reputation for giving away the popular Palestinian treat ‘knafeh’ to indigent customers — earned him the nickname ‘Father of the Poor’; 84- > year-old Elham Farah, from one of Palestine’s oldest Christian families — a reputed accordionist and music teacher, known as ‘Mother Orange’ to generations of Palestinian music students for her shock of > red hair, 417 — shot dead by an Israeli sniper outside the Holy Family Church in Gaza City when she returned home for warm clothes, and was left to bleed to death. And it’s not as if the rhetoric has let up at all. From last week: > [@Times of Israel](#): > > Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu signs an agreement to push ahead with the controversial E1 settlement expansion plan that will cut across land that the Palestinians seek for a state. > > “ **We are going to fulfill our promise that there will be no Palestinian state, this place belongs to us** ,” Netanyahu says during a visit to the Ma’ale Adumim settlement in the West Bank, where thousands of new housing units would be added. > > “We will safeguard our heritage, our land and our security… We are going to double the city’s population.” [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/there-will-be-no-palestinian-state-pm-signs-agreement-pushing-ahead-with-e1-settlement-plan/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/there-will-be-no-palestinian-state-pm-signs-agreement-pushing-ahead-with-e1-settlement-plan/) Bolding mine. I think he’s stating his intentions pretty clearly, don’t you think? > [@Babale](#): > > 🤣 > > I’m sure the ANC will be ordering themselves to release the bank documents any day now. You laugh: but I’m not the one making claims without evidence. There is a process. The ISGAP report actually showed that there was a process, that the the Electoral Commission of South Africa had determined that there was “no prime facie case to investigate", that legal action was taken to possibly challenge that determination, and now, a year after the report, do you have an update on this? > [@Babale](#): > > What “outcome” are you referring to? Are you still trying to pass off the ICC saying “it is plausible that if the claims that are being made are true than the Palestinians have a case that can be brought by South Africa” as the ICC saying “it is plausible that Israel is committing a genocide”? I’m not sure why you keep quoting Ms Donoghue. It doesn’t dispute what anyone in this thread has said. 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