# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 256
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2025, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5238 "2025-09-16T05:53:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The debt was paid off. That is evidence. No, it is not evidence _that Iran did it_. Like I said, just speculation. When Israel paid for ISGAP, [there was actual paper evidence.](https://forward.com/israel/453339/israel-antisemitism-isgap-think-tank-foreign-funding/). Even though they tried to cover it up, unlike most other academic bodies receiving foreign grants. But go ahead, trust _their_ word. Let the _hasbara_ flow. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2025, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5239 "2025-09-17T11:21:10Z")
…the latest UN Report, prepared by the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry, has come up with a predictable, inevitable conclusion. > [@](#): > > Israel has committed genocide against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel said in a new [report](https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session60/advance-version/a-hrc-60-crp-3.pdf) today. The Commission urges Israel and all States to fulfil their legal obligations under international law to end the genocide and punish those responsible for it. > > The Commission has been investigating the events on and since 7 October 2023 for the last two years, and concluded that Israeli authorities and Israeli security forces committed four of the five genocidal acts defined by the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, namely killing, causing serious bodily or mental harm, deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about the destruction of the Palestinians in whole or in part, and imposing measures intended to prevent births. [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/09/israel-has-committed-genocide-gaza-strip-un-commission-finds](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2025/09/israel-has-committed-genocide-gaza-strip-un-commission-finds) The report is here: > **[a-hrc-60-crp-3.pdf](https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session60/advance-version/a-hrc-60-crp-3.pdf)** > > 1058.17 KB Some important parts: (bolding all mine) > [@](#): > > 1. The Commission finds that, in relation to the total siege, the following factors > indicate **the Israeli authorities’ intention to impose conditions of life calculated to** > **bring about physical destruction of the Palestinian group in Gaza** : (i) the nature of > the siege imposed, its duration and the vulnerability of Palestinians in Gaza who are > dependent on the humanitarian aid blocked by Israel; (ii) the awareness of the > objective probability that their conduct would lead to the destruction of Palestinians > in Gaza as a group; (iii) the continuation of blockade despite warnings, including the > flagrant disregard of binding orders of the International Court of Justice; and (iv) the > entrapment of Palestinians in Gaza, ensuring they cannot escape the violence and > eventual destruction of the group. > 2. Based on the above, the Commission concludes that the conduct of the Israeli > authorities indicates the intention to destroy the Palestinian group in Gaza through > starvation and the blocking of humanitarian aid into Gaza. > [@](#): > > 1. **The Commission finds that the Israeli authorities were aware that, by destroying** > **the healthcare system throughout Gaza, their actions would lead to the destruction of** > **Palestinians as a group.** Not only did the Israeli security forces destroy the healthcare > system, but Israeli security forces continued to kill and harm Palestinians while > intentionally obstructing them from trying to access much needed medical assistance and > facilities. Therefore, the Commission concludes that the systematic and complete > destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza, the siege-induced deprivation of medical > necessities to Palestinians and the denial of medical exit visas to Palestinians who were > most in medical need were part of the intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza by preventing > their capacity and possibility to heal, recover and live. > [@](#): > > 1. **There is a clear pattern of conduct since 7 October 2023 showing that the** > **Israeli security forces directly targeted children in different circumstances with the** > **intention to kill them.** In all the cases investigated by the Commission, none of the > children posed any threat to the Israeli security forces. The targeting of children is > relevant to infer the genocidal intent of the Israeli authorities, because (i) the > extensive and deliberate targeting of Palestinian children shows that the military > operations were not conducted solely to defeat Hamas and other Palestinian armed > groups, nor can they legitimately contribute to the other stated goals of defending > the state of Israel and securing the release of Israeli hostages; and (ii) the direct and > intentional targeting of Palestinian children was intended to physically destroy the > group by eliminating not only today’s children but the possibility of them having > children in future. > 457 There is, as always, much much more at the link. There isn’t anything new in the report. There isn’t anything in that report that hasn’t already been repeated over and over again in this very thread. The deliberate targeting of children. The deliberate engineering of the famine. The deliberate destruction of the healthcare system. Its all been documented here as it happened. And we are now in probably the darkest phase. For now. They are razing Gaza City. People are escaping to the south, finding that there is no food, no water, nowhere to stay, so they are returning to the north facing almost certain death, because there simply isn’t anywhere else to go. The report makes it clear that “all States need to fulfil their legal obligations under international law to end the genocide and punish those responsible for it.”. We are beyond the point of just hoping that Israel are going to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2025, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5240 "2025-09-17T22:57:11Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > We are beyond the point of just hoping that Israel are going to stop. That’s only true if there is no hope for surrender by Hamas. All suffering under their rule could be eliminated the next day if Arab countries would take in the refugees. Nobody wants them. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2025, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5241 "2025-09-17T23:38:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s only true if there is no hope for surrender by Hamas. …Hamas has agreed to step down from power, hand over to an independent Palestinian governing authority, and to release all of the hostages in exchange for ending the war. > [@Magiver](#): > > All suffering under their rule could be eliminated the next day if Arab countries would take in the refugees. What are you talking about? Gaza is their _home_. Why are you talking about them having to leave their home? > [@Magiver](#): > > Nobody wants them. More correctly: nobody wants to be complicit with _ethnic cleansing_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2025, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5242 "2025-09-17T23:39:37Z")
Whether true or not, it does not remotely justify the deliberate mass starvation of hundreds of thousands of women and children, as the IDF is doing. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2025, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5243 "2025-09-17T23:42:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > All suffering under their rule could be eliminated the next day if Arab countries would take in the refugees. So all we need to do is some ethnic cleansing? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2025, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5244 "2025-09-18T02:21:55Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > So all we need to do is some ethnic cleansing? All that needs to happen is for Hamas to actually surrender. Done. No talking about it, no conditions, just surrender. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2025, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5245 "2025-09-18T02:22:32Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …Hamas has agreed to step down from power, hand over to an independent Palestinian governing authority, and to release all of the hostages in exchange for ending the war. Odd they haven’t actually done it. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2025, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5246 "2025-09-18T02:42:39Z")
But if they don’t then ethnic cleansing? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2025, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5247 "2025-09-18T03:11:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Odd they haven’t actually done it. …you may have missed the “in exchange for ending the war” part. They haven’t done it because Israel have shown no sign or wanting to end the war. A reminder that earlier this year a ceasefire was in place. The hostages were being released. Then when it was supposed to move to the next phase of the ceasefire, Israel literally blew the ceasefire deal up. It ended it for no justified reason, killing over 400 people in one of the bloodiest days of this “war.” And a reminder that only a few weeks ago the US put another peace deal on the table, and when the Hamas negotiating team got together to discuss that offer, Israel _tried to kill them_. You make it sound so _easy_. But the reality is Israel (as in the government) don’t want this to end. Israel has continually failed to negotiate in good faith, and _trying to kill the negotiators_ is the surest sign of that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2025, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5248 "2025-09-18T09:31:40Z")
Because Israel’s leadership wants the war to go on forever. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2025, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5249 "2025-09-18T11:00:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Nobody wants them. We could give them South Dakota. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2025, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5250 "2025-09-21T13:12:05Z")
…its increasingly hard to know whats happening in Gaza at the moment, primarily because Israel have targeted and killed most of the journalists. Most of the information I see now comes from just ordinary people on the ground. And I hesitate to share it because we can no longer get the standard of vetting that you would get when it comes through a news organisation. But it’s bad. And it isn’t just in Gaza. Israel killed 31 journalists in Yemen in a series of strikes. > **[Israel’s killing of 31 Yemeni journalists marks deadliest global attack in 16...](https://cpj.org/2025/09/israels-killing-of-31-yemeni-journalists-marks-deadliest-global-attack-in-16-years/)** > > Washington, D.C., September 19, 2025—Israel’s targeted strikes on two newspaper offices in Yemen’s capital, Sanaa, which killed 31 journalists and media support workers on September 10, signal that its deadly pattern of attacking reporters and... It happened a couple of weeks ago. I noted it at the time, but it’s taken this long for it to be picked up by mainstream reporting. It’s the biggest mass slaughter of journalists in 16 years. Killing journalists is just the norm now. So outside of reporting from the ground, the best sources of information still remains the Gaza Flash Updates. Here is the latest: > **[Humanitarian Situation Update #323 | Gaza Strip | United Nations Office for...](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/humanitarian-situation-update-323-gaza-strip)** > > Eleven UNRWA premises serving as emergency shelters for about 11,000 displaced people in Gaza city have been damaged in five days. Again, I’m not going to summarise it. But everything is bad. Mass killings near food distribution sites has been normalised. Famine getting worse. Healthcare system overwhelmed. This quote haunts me. _"The escalating Israeli military offensive underway in Gaza city is “already resulting in disproportionate civilian casualties and driving the near total collapse of the remaining lifelines children need to survive,”_ ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2025, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5251 "2025-09-24T13:53:05Z")
…earlier today, Israel attacked the flotilla of activists, food and aid that are trying to break the blockade on Gaza. In response: Italy are sending a frigate into the area for “possible rescue operations.” This is a relatively important development because the flotilla has already been attacked twice before while in port and nothing happened at all. But for the first time we will see if the presence of western military forces will mean Israel will back off, or if they will continue to harass the flotilla. And if they do, what will happen in response. > **[MSN](https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/middleeast/italy-sends-warship-to-help-gaza-aid-flotilla/ar-AA1Nc7ow)** ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2025, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5252 "2025-09-25T21:32:37Z")
> **[Netanyahu flies circuitous route to UN summit ‘to avoid arrest’ in Europe](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/25/netanyahu-flies-circuitous-route-to-un-summit-amid-reporarrest-fears?CMP=share_btn_url)** > > Wing of Zion followed Mediterranean Sea, tracking data shows, amid ICC arrest warrant [![](https://interactive.guim.co.uk/uploader/embed/2025/09/netanyahu_plane_route/giv-325546IaYhdI1CqF5/Netanyahu-NY-route-map-mobile_300.png) ](https://interactive.guim.co.uk/uploader/embed/2025/09/netanyahu_plane_route/giv-325546IaYhdI1CqF5/Netanyahu-NY-route-map-mobile_300.png) ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2025, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5253 "2025-09-26T10:38:20Z")
Wait, really? They call their plane the “Wing of Zion?” That’s not a joke? For some reason I find that obnoxious. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2025, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5254 "2025-09-29T11:23:47Z")
> **[IDF chief said to have warned PM, Katz that Gaza City op has ‘no political...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-chief-said-to-have-warned-pm-katz-that-gaza-city-op-has-no-political-endgame/)** > > Army confirms Zamir's hand-delivered secret memo to Netanyahu weeks ago, as parents of soldiers fume that he is sending their children to battle without purpose ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2025, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5255 "2025-09-29T21:25:03Z")
So apparently we have a peace deal: > **[Trump and Netanyahu say they've agreed on a plan to end Gaza war and await...](https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/netanyahu-trump-set-meet-pressure-040620036.html)** > > President Donald Trump and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Monday they’ve agreed on a plan to end the war in Gaza, but it’s unclear whether Hamas will accept the terms. Trump's plan would establish a temporary governing board that... However, Netanyahu has the “full backing” of the US to “finish the job” if Hamas doesn’t accept the deal. So you know, no chance this could go wrong and just lead to endless ethnic cleansing then. The deal is reported as a 20-point plan so we know Trump had to take his shoes and socks off for this one. Here’s the part that really sounds like an Onion article: > Trump’s plan would establish a temporary governing board that would be headed by Trump You can’t even run your own country and you’re going to fix up Gaza?! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2025, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5256 "2025-09-29T21:35:32Z")
Trump and Netanyahu reach a deal? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5257 "2025-09-30T00:54:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Trump and Netanyahu reach a deal? That is what news reports say. [PBS: Text of the 20 Point Proposal](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/read-trumps-20-point-proposal-to-end-the-war-in-gaza) [AP: Palestinian government supports Trump’s plan to end Israel-Hamas war](https://apnews.com/live/donald-trump-news-updates-9-29-2025?utm_source=copy&utm_medium=share) And: [AP: Arab countries support Trump’s peace plan announcement](https://apnews.com/live/donald-trump-news-updates-9-29-2025#00000199-975f-d780-a199-b7dff4860000) > [@](#): > > In a joint statement, the foreign ministers of Egypt, Jordan, the United Arab Emirates, Indonesia, Pakistan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar said they have confidence in Trump’s “ability to find a path to peace.” > > They also said they welcome his announcement of his proposal to end the war in Gaza and his comments that he will not allow Israel to annex the West Bank. > > But the countries do not say they agree to its plan as fully presented. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=255) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=257)