# Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [October 9, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317 "2023-10-09T15:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 258
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2025, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5278 "2025-10-03T21:12:09Z")
Hamas has said they will release all the hostages, living and dead: [https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-hamas-deadline-ceasefire-1.7650305](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-hamas-deadline-ceasefire-1.7650305) They haven’t agreed to the full peace plan but let’s hope this goes in the direction of further negotiation rather than endless war. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2025, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5279 "2025-10-03T22:39:51Z")
They’ve offered that several times, but Israel wants a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5280 "2025-10-04T01:12:39Z")
Yeah right now this looks like the exact stance Israel and Hamas have had for the majority of the war. The only real hope at negotiation would have to be another multistage cease fire like the one that was attempted when Trumps second term started, which would at least kick the can for a while until you get back to the issue that if hamas disarming is a dealbreaker for both sides there’s no middle position to take. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5281 "2025-10-04T03:20:45Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It’s true that no one wants the refugees. But Saudi Arabia was on the verge of normalizing political ties with Israel. Saudi Arabia supports the US with bases as does other Muslim countries in the region. Many of them are at political odds with Iran. As a result of this war Iran has had their nuclear weapons program set back and Syria was dismantled. Russia lost it’s only base in the Mediterranean. It was a major political change in the region. There’s a reason none of them want refugees from Gaza. They are collectively a religious train wreck. Nobody wants internal religious strife funded by Iran. There’s no real way to sort out Hamas from other Gazan citizens and that’s the 900 lb gorilla in the room. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5282 "2025-10-04T03:27:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There’s no real way to sort out Hamas from other Gazan citizens and that’s the 900 lb gorilla in the room. Or, if one will, the 900lb toddler. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5283 "2025-10-04T03:48:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There’s a reason none of them want refugees from Gaza. …their neighbours have taken _plenty_ of Palestinian refugees. But they aren’t taking many refugees from Gaza during this particular conflict for two different reasons: 1. Israel _aren’t letting anyone out_. They are in full control of the borders and they aren’t letting most Palestinians leave. There are approximately 15,600 patients needing urgent medical evacuation from Gaza right now and most _are not being allowed_. 2. Doing so would be enabling the _ethnic cleansing_ of Gaza. People are not wanting to leave Gaza of their own free will. They are being _forced_ to leave. And forced displacement is illegal under international law. It isn’t because: > [@Magiver](#): > > They are collectively a religious train wreck. Its because they are trapped, and they are being exterminated, and Israel want them to leave Gaza, and enabling Israel would by itself make them _complicit_ with the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, and they don’t want that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5284 "2025-10-04T12:41:40Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > and Israel want them to leave Gaza, > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Israel _aren’t letting anyone out_. Wow, if Israel was really trying to “Ethnically Cleanse” Gazans, they’re apparently _incredibly shitty at it_. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5285 "2025-10-04T13:20:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Wow, if Israel was really trying to “Ethnically Cleanse” Gazans, they’re apparently _incredibly shitty at it_. …I’m glad you’ve bought up ethnic cleansing. They’ve flattened Rafah, flattened most of the north and are in the process of flattening Gaza City. Here is video of a bulldozer equipped with a flamethrower. > Why are they setting buildings on fire like that? From the latest Gaza flash update: > [@](#): > > On 29 September, the UN Human Rights office in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OHCHR) [expressed](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-strikes-internally-displaced-persons-and-killing-persons-collecting-firewood-gaza-raise-further-concerns-about-attacks-civilians?utm_source=rw-subscriptions&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=country_updates_180) dismay **“that the Israeli military is destroying Gaza City, forcing Palestinians to flee,”** stating that while the mass displacement of IDPs from Gaza city into Deir al Balah continued, the Israeli military “intensified strikes on the northwestern part of the [Deir al Balah] governorate, covering An Nuseirat and Az Zawaida areas.” > **[Humanitarian Situation Update #327 | Gaza Strip | United Nations Office for...](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/humanitarian-situation-update-327-gaza-strip)** > > People in Gaza city are facing deteriorating access to means of survival amid intensified bombardment, collapsing lifelines, and a growing number of aid organizations forced to suspend operations.  This is ethnic cleansing. That is the most accurate way to describe it. > [@](#): > > The absolute majority of shelter, water and sanitation and health facilities managed by UNRWA in Gaza city have now been evacuated, damaged or rendered inaccessible. Israel are targeting shelter, water and sanitation. > [@](#): > > On 26 September, Médecins Sans Frontières ([MSF](https://www.msf.org/msf-forced-suspend-activities-amid-israeli-offensive-gaza-city)) announced that they were forced to suspend their medical activities in Gaza city due to the intensification of Israeli military operations, which escalated risks for both staff and patients. Israel are deliberately targeting the healthcare system. > [@](#): > > On 1 October, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) [announced](https://x.com/ICRC_ilot/status/1973343567772008671) the temporary suspension of operations at their offices in Gaza city and the relocation of staff to ICRC offices in southern Gaza due to the intensification of military operations in Gaza city. They are targeting humanitarian agencies. > [@](#): > > The UN and its partners continue to face physical and bureaucratic impediments preventing them from providing lifesaving assistance at scale in the Gaza Strip. Complex authorization and inspection procedures, limited clearance capacity at various crossings, often unpredictable rejection of entry of pre-cleared cargo types, and denials or impediments to humanitarian movements by Israeli authorities hinder operations. They are targeting the UN and its partners. > [@](#): > > On 23 September, the UN Environment Programme ([UNEP](https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/environmental-damage-gaza-strip-harming-human-health-threatening)) warned that recovery from the environmental damage in Gaza could take decades. They are damaging the environment. > [@](#): > > The collapse of sewage treatment infrastructure, the destruction of piped systems, and the reliance on cesspits for sanitation have likely increased contamination of the aquifer that supplies most of Gaza’s water, while marine and coastal areas are also suspected to be contaminated. They are targeting the sanitation system. > [@](#): > > Moreover, since 2023, the Gaza Strip has lost 97 per cent of its tree crops, 95 per cent of its shrubland, and 82 per cent of its annual crops, making food production at scale impossible. Israel has nearly totally destroyed all of the tree crops, the shrubland and most of their ability to make crops. > [@](#): > > Since 18 March, the Site Management Cluster ([SMC](https://www.cccmcluster.org/sites/default/files/2025-09/Population%20Movement%20Monitoring%20-%20Flash%20Update%2031%20-%2023%20-27%20%20Sep.pdf)) has recorded more than 1,200,000 displacement movements (each movement represents one person but people are counted more than once when they have been displaced multiple times). Over a MILLION displacement movements since March. Much more at the link. It’s the stuff of nightmares. But its very very real. And we should be doing everything that we can to stop it. Addressing the words you said: Israel have actually been very efficient at ethnically cleansing much of Gaza. They’ve set up “concentration zones”, or camps, that comprise only about 15% of the available land. And they are herding more and more people into those zones every single day. As to the seeming absurdity of both trapping people in concentration zones AND wanting everyone to voluntarily leave: that’s the thing about both ethnic cleansing and the G word I’m not allowed to use in this thread: neither of them need to make any sense. There doesn’t have to be any logic to it. Israeli leadership will continue with what they are doing now, killing at least a hundred people a day, every single day, flattening houses and schools and Mosques, clearing out entire areas. And they will continue to seek “partners” that are willing to take Palestinians in Gaza that want to “voluntarily” leave, and they will continue to trap them and _not allow them to leave_. And if you think thats crazy and absurd and doesn’t make any sense then you would be 100% correct. Because ethnic cleansing and gen\_\_\_\_ don’t make any sense. But that isn’t my fault. Take it up with the people that are actually doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5286 "2025-10-04T14:35:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There doesn’t have to be any logic to it. Israeli leadership will continue with what they are doing now, killing at least a hundred people a day, every single day, flattening houses and schools and Mosques, clearing out entire areas. And they will continue to seek “partners” that are willing to take Palestinians in Gaza that want to “voluntarily” leave, and they will continue to trap them and _not allow them to leave_. How _convenient_ that you can accuse Israel of any heinous thing you want and your accusations _don’t even have to make sense_. That really is an _incredible_ thing for you to admit. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And if you think thats crazy and absurd and doesn’t make any sense then you would be 100% correct. Because ethnic cleansing and gen\_\_\_\_ don’t make any sense. But that isn’t my fault. Take it up with the people that are actually doing it. Just like any other conspiracy theory, the lack of evidence is the proof 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5287 "2025-10-04T15:30:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > How _convenient_ that you can accuse Israel of any heinous thing you want and your accusations _don’t even have to make sense_. …both things are objectively true. Israel are stopping Palestinians from leaving. From COGAT: _“Israel’s Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT), the body under the Defense Ministry responsible for coordinating the movement of Gaza residents, has maintained that **the only criteria for exiting Gaza — both before and throughout the war — are severe illness or injury, or foreign citizenship.** In all cases, residents cannot apply directly to COGAT; an international organization must submit the request on their behalf.”_ > **[Israel claims it’s promoting Palestinian emigration from Gaza. So why are so...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-claims-its-promoting-palestinian-emigration-from-gaza-so-why-are-so-few-leaving/)** > > Despite saying it would act on Trump's plan to depopulate the Strip, Israel has allowed around 600 people out since March, after months-long efforts by humanitarian groups and foreign governments AND Israel are trying to find a ‘partner’ that will take Palestinians that “voluntarily” want to leave. _“[Israel](https://www.nbcnews.com/world/israel/un-chief-puts-israel-russia-notice-conflict-related-sexual-violence-rcna224673) is in discussions with [South Sudan](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/us-finishes-deportation-eight-men-south-sudan-weeks-legal-wrangling-rcna217078) about the possibility of resettling Palestinians from the [Gaza Strip](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/starvation-gaza-divides-jewish-americans-israel-hamas-war-netanyahu-rcna223143) to the war-torn East African country, part of a wider effort by Israel to facilitate mass emigration from the territory left in ruins by its 22-month offensive against Hamas.”_ > **[Israel is in talks to possibly resettle Palestinians from Gaza in South Sudan](https://www.nbcnews.com/world/middle-east/israel-talks-possibly-resettle-palestinians-gaza-south-sudan-rcna224674)** > > The discussions are part of a wider effort by Israel to facilitate mass emigration from the territory left in ruins by its 22-month offensive against Hamas. What are you actually disputing here? Both things are true. > Just like any other conspiracy theory, the lack of evidence is the proof 🙄 Why are they burning down homes with flamethrowers on bulldozers? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5288 "2025-10-04T16:22:19Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What are you actually disputing here? Both things are true. What I’m disputing here is the idea that Israel is ethnically cleansing Gaza by both not letting anyone out and getting all the Palestinians out at the same time like some kind of Schrodinger’s Genocide. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Why are they burning down homes with flamethrowers on bulldozers? Why is Hamas turning civilian homes into booby trapped fighting positions? You can’t militarize a position and then cry about it when it’s destroyed by the people you’re trying to kill from said position. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5289 "2025-10-04T20:24:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What I’m disputing here is the idea that Israel is ethnically cleansing Gaza by both not letting anyone out and getting all the Palestinians out at the same time like some kind of Schrodinger’s Genocide. …for the sake of clarity: my post was split into two different bullet points for a reason. They both addressed why people aren’t leaving Gaza. The first is that Israel isn’t letting them, which isn’t ethnic cleansing, and I didn’t claim that it was. The second was a reference to Israels plan for mass “voluntary” emigration from Gaza. This WOULD be ethnic cleansing. Because it wouldn’t be “voluntary.” It would be forced, by circumstances or otherwise. Both of these ideas are bonkers. Both are illegal under international law. There are 15,600 people waiting for medical evacuation right now and there are countries that are ready to take them. They should be allowed to leave. There is also ethnic cleansing going on throughout Gaza. This is separate to the mass emigration plan. They have cleansed much of the north. They cleansed Rafah. They are cleansing Gaza City. They are forcing people to move, then they are demolishing their houses, meaning they can not return to their homes. I’m not accusing Israel of :any heinous thing that I want". Israel are doing heinous things. They literally engineered a famine. That is heinous. I’ll stop accusing them of doing heinous things when they stop doing heinous things. > [@Babale](#): > > Why is Hamas turning civilian homes into booby trapped fighting positions? They aren’t. _They are civilian homes_. People used to live their. They weren’t forced out of their homes by Hamas. They wre either ordered to leave by the IDF, or they fled because they feared what would happen to them, or they died there because the IDF dropped a bomb on them. Once people have been forced to abandon their homes by Israeli forces then I concede that Hamas will use sometimes use those abandoned homes as fighting positions and may even booby trap them. But that isn’t why the homes were destroyed in the first place. The pattern of destruction is systematic. Entire neighbourhoods cleared out and flattened. And Israel do the very same thing. They set up bases in schools, hospitals, homes. Israel militarises civilian infrastructure. > [@Babale](#): > > You can’t militarize a position and then cry about it when it’s destroyed by the people you’re trying to kill from said position. You can’t seriously be claiming that this level of total destruction was because “Hamas were militarising a position.” > **[RAW VIDEO: Jordanian Military Cargo Planes Air Drop Humanitarian Aid To Gaza](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4w5FKfyiAs%2F)** > > On Saturday, the Jordanian military air dropped aid into Gaza.Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking ... Those are scenes of systematic destruction. They are flattening the strip. Here is Rafah: > **[Drone footage shows the scale of destruction in Gaza's Rafah](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU-_wIkRbR4%2F)** > > Israel's campaign of intense aerial bombardment has left the Gaza Strip's infrastructure devastated. Drone footage from the southern city of Rafah shows enti... In the early days of the “war” there were over a million people forced into this city. They were ordered there by Israel in order to escape the north. Then they were ordered to leave here as well. Then the city was flattened. This was supposed to be Biden’s “red line.” What a big joke that turned out to be. Here is Jabalia and Beit Hanoun. > **[Drone footage shows devastation in Gaza's Jabalia and Beit Hanoun](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGEDAFFDjgc%2F)** > > Drone footage has revealed massive devastation in Jabalia and Beit Hanoun, two areas in northern Gaza.Reports indicate that 300,000 displaced Palestinians ha... Flattened. Here is Beit Lahiya. > **[Drone footage shows vast destruction in Beit Lahiya, in northern Gaza](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItS3bR56WJM%2F)** > > Aerial footage shows the vast destruction in Beit Lahiya in northern Gaza. Rebuilding Gaza could cost $53.2 billion, according to a report released Tuesday b... Look at the make-shift tents in the rubble. The utter devastation. More from Jabalia. > **[Raw Drone Footage Shows Destruction of Northern Gaza Strip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcA0X5LPXe8%2F)** > > Drone footage reveals the staggering devastation in northern Gaza after 500 days of conflict. Captured over Jabaliya, the aerial images show entire neighborh... You want us to believe that this scale of destruction is all because Hamas has allegedly militarised ALL of it. Thats the sort of claim that demands a significant amount of evidence. Lets start with Rafah. Why was Rafah destroyed? And using flamethrowers in this context is prohibited under international law. It is “prohibited in all circumstances to make the civilian population as such, individual civilians **or civilian objects** the object of attack by incendiary weapons.” Bolding mine. _Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons (Protocol III). Geneva, 10 October 1980._ [https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/ccw-protocol-iii-1980](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/ccw-protocol-iii-1980) Ratified by Israel in 1995. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5290 "2025-10-04T22:18:14Z")
Witnesses report that Israeli forces brutalized and forced some sort of flag humiliation ritual on Greta Thunberg: > **[Israel accused of detaining Greta Thunberg in infested cell and making her...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/oct/04/greta-thunberg-israel-gaza-sweden)** > > Activist tells Swedish officials she has been subjected to harsh treatment, including insufficient food and water > The allegation was corroborated by at least two other members of the flotilla who had been detained by Israeli forces and released on Saturday. > “They dragged little Greta [Thunberg] by her hair before our eyes, beat her, and forced her to kiss the Israeli flag. They did everything imaginable to her, as a warning to others,” the Turkish activist ErsinÇelik, a participant in the Sumud flotilla, told Anadolu news agency. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5291 "2025-10-04T22:49:35Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They weren’t forced out of their homes by Hamas. T Right, in fact Hamas kills people who try to use the evacuation routes Israel designates, because they want people to stay put. That’s how _human shields_ work. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2025, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5292 "2025-10-04T23:23:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Right, in fact Hamas kills people who try to use the evacuation routes Israel designates, because they want people to stay put. …Hamas aren’t responsible for the devastation that is shown in those videos. And do you have a cite for this?. Because I just went searching for it and these were the first hits I got in Google for “hamas killing people on evacuation routes” (without the quotes). > **[Attacks on Palestinians evacuating Gaza City](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_Palestinians_evacuating_Gaza_City)** > > Since October 2023, multiple attacks during the Gaza war hit Palestinians attempting to leave northern Gaza City. On 13 October, an airstrike occurred after an evacuation directive from Israel, urging more than a million residents from northern Gaza to move to the southern part of the territory. The airstrike killed 70 people, mostly women and children, and injured 200. > Tensions escalated when Hamas, the group in control of Gaza, launched an attack on Israel. Israel responded with a series of a... > **[They followed evacuation orders. An Israeli airstrike killed them the next...](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs)** > > When Palestinians in north Gaza heeded the warnings issued in the Israeli military’s phone calls, text messages, and fliers advising them to head south, they thought they were fleeing to potential safety. > **[Strike on civilian convoy fleeing Gaza: What we know from verified video](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67114281)** > > Women and children were killed in Friday's strike on vehicles that were heading away from northern Gaza. > **[Israeli military kills at least 41 people as it continues to order evacuation...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/10/israeli-military-kills-at-least-people-as-it-continues-to-order-evacuation-of-gaza-city)** > > Many of 1 million residents say they will not leave as they do not believe al-Mawasi humanitarian zone is safe > **[70 killed after convoys of evacuees in Gaza hit by Israeli airstrikes](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120252)** > > Follow NBC News' live coverage and updates of the Israel-Hamas war after militant fighters launched a surprise attack and took hostages, before Israeli forces bombed Gaza and ordered residents to evacuate. > **[Forensic Architecture](https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/humanitarian-violence-in-gaza)** > **[Israel threatens all staying in Gaza City, kills at least 53 in enclave](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/10/2/israel-threatens-all-staying-in-gaza-city-kills-at-least-13-in-enclave)** > > Israeli Defence Minister Katz says anyone who stays in Gaza City will be considered 'terrorists and terror supporters'.  It wasn’t until well down the page that I found a Reddit post that had a grainy photo with a claim Hamas were blocking the road, not killing anyone. > **[Reddit - The heart of the internet](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/178augk/hamas_seen_blocking_evacuation_routes_in_gaza_idf/)** Then: [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-opens-new-route-out-gaza-city-death-toll-passes-65000-2025-09-17/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-opens-new-route-out-gaza-city-death-toll-passes-65000-2025-09-17/) > **[Video shows ‘families killed amid their belongings’ on evacuation route | CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/14/gaza-city-evacuation-route-explosion-israel-hamas-idf-abdelaziz-pkg-intl-vpx.cnn)** > > CNN’s Salma Abdelaziz reports on a large explosion that left dozens dead along an evacuation route for civilians south of Gaza City. These videos come after the window issued by the Israeli military warning Palestinian civilians to finish evacuating... > **[Gaza civilians afraid to leave home after bombing of ‘safe routes’](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-civilians-afraid-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes)** > > Analysis of aerial photos and social media posts confirms attack on road identified as safe by Israeli army There are a lot of links to reputable news agencies reporting on the IDF killing Palestinians on evacuation routes. I’m sure if I were to keep going I’d find PLENTY more. It sure looks like those “evacuation” routes are dangerous because Israel keeps bombing them and killing people on them. After a lot of digging I found this: > **[Hamas is shooting Gazan civilians who try to evacuate Jabaliya, IDF paramedic...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-shooting-gazan-civilians-who-try-to-evacuate-jabaliya-idf-paramedic-says/)** > > Cpl. Shai Gilboa photographed providing medical assistance to a Palestinian woman injured in the face by Hamas gunfire while trying to get to a designated safe zone The source is an IDF paramedic. There is this (paywalled) article where Hamas tells people not to evacuate. But no killing. [https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip/card/hamas-tells-civilians-not-to-evacuate-to-the-south-T9TX4p5KHl930OHJDyfp](https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip/card/hamas-tells-civilians-not-to-evacuate-to-the-south-T9TX4p5KHl930OHJDyfp) The same again: source an IDF tweet. No reports of killing. > **[Hamas blocking evacuation of civilians in Gaza: IDF ahead of ground offensive](https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/hamas-blocking-evacuation-of-civilians-in-gaza-idf-ahead-of-ground-offensive/amp_articleshow/104438188.cms)** > > The Israel Defence Force (IDF) has accused Hamas of preventing the evacuation of civilians in the Gaza Strip ahead of a potential ground offensive. The IDF claimed that Hamas fired rockets at Tel Aviv and southern Israel on Saturday night, and that... And another. > **[LISTEN: Hamas blocks road to Gazans fleeing- 'They're shooting people' | The...](https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-770242)** > > IDF Intelligence Soldiers had called dozens of Gazan residents asking them to evacuate, but only to find out, Hamas has blocked the access routes to the southern end of Gaza. No reports of killing: just an alleged transcript from the IDF of a conversation with a resident who said there were shootings. Same photo as the Reddit post. > That’s how _human shields_ work. The only real evidence of use of human shields in Gaza is again: by the IDF: > **[Israeli use of human shields in Gaza was systematic, soldiers and former...](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-army-human-shields-80f358dd2c87a1123f26ffada159701c)** > > Several Palestinians and Israeli soldiers say troops are systematically forcing Palestinians to act as human shields in Gaza, sending them into buildings and tunnels to check for bombs and gunmen. > **[The Israeli military has used Palestinians as human shields in Gaza, soldier...](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/24/middleeast/palestinians-human-shields-israel-military-gaza-intl)** > > The Israeli military has forced Palestinians to enter potentially booby-trapped houses and tunnels in Gaza to avoid putting its troops in harm’s way, according to an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldier and five former detainees who said they were... [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-military-human-shields.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-military-human-shields.html) > **[Israeli soldier tells CBS News he was ordered to use Palestinians as human...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-soldier-palestinians-human-shields-gaza/)** > > An Israeli soldier and a Palestinian boy tell CBS News they have personal experience of the IDF forcing civilians to check buildings for explosives. > **[BBC World Service - Weekend, IDF used Palestinian man as human shield, says...](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w172zcwzycnvpcg)** > > Footage shows a man strapped to the front of an IDF vehicle ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2025, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5293 "2025-10-05T02:38:49Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > They aren’t. _They are civilian homes_. People used to live their. They weren’t forced out of their homes by Hamas. When Hamas uses civilian homes they become military targets. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2025, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5294 "2025-10-05T03:05:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > When Hamas uses civilian homes they become military targets. …so is the argument here that every single civilian home in Rafah, Jabalia, Beit Lahiya, Beit Hanoun and Gaza City are being used by Hamas? I can’t believe thats true. If it were, there would be _dossiers_ of evidence. So again: let’s start with Rafah. By all accounts and from the video footage, Rafah has been levelled. So show me the justification for that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2025, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5295 "2025-10-05T03:30:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So again: let’s start with Rafah. By all accounts and from the video footage, Rafah has been levelled. So show me the justification for that. Hamas is fighting a gorilla war so show me where they’re located. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2025, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5296 "2025-10-05T03:50:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Hamas is fighting a gorilla war so show me where they’re located. …in the eyes of international humanitarian law, that isn’t my burden to prove: it’s Israels. And I can’t imagine any justification for the flattening of Rafah. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2025, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/5297 "2025-10-05T04:44:39Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …in the eyes of international humanitarian law, that isn’t my burden to prove You keep ignoring the obvious. Hamas is waging a gorilla war. There is no battlefield you can point to. And it’s not up to Israel to reveal their intelligence operation to satisfy you. In WW2 the Allies flattened Germany and incinerated multiple German and Japanese cities. This is what war looks like. And don’t bother coming back with the Queensbury rules of war that were enacted after WW2. It’s nothing but an attempt to whitewash the war after the fact. War is about death and destruction. In this case the battlefield for Hamas is civilian infrastructure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=257) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317.md?page=259)